MHP/AR Gen 2 LT Header & X-Pipe Thread???
09-12-2013, 10:13 AM
#76
i feel like im on a honda civic board with the bickering, and then all this talk about trap speeds and 1/4 miles that are slow as ***** lol. if its not running 8's as a daily driver, its not fast.
So who cares. put someones headers on and enjoy the sound of the car.. it sounds great, looks great, it drives great... but sorry.. its just not fast lol
So who cares. put someones headers on and enjoy the sound of the car.. it sounds great, looks great, it drives great... but sorry.. its just not fast lol
09-12-2013, 11:25 AM
#77
MBWorld Fanatic!
i'm not here to bash anyone because I have run both headers and had great customer service from both companies but this crap has gone on way too long .
I had the MHP setup when I was N/A . it made plenty of power but due to the slip-fit collectors , it started leak . we stuck the car up on the lift and noticed it was leaking pretty bad from multiple places . I was told by Andy to use a silicone to seal the gaps and was even sent extra tabs to weld on to the collector . I never welded new tabs but I did use the silicone and it worked for the leaks . a while passes..........
I decide to send my car to Weistec for the full treatment . the car gets delivered back to me but had a small hesitation and the exhaust leak decided to show it's ugly face again . I did some research and saw that MBH made headers with 2" primaries and from what I was told by many people , that was the way to go with the blower setup . I talked to Steve and told him I decided to send my car to Dyno-comp to switch headers and mids . Steve decided to contact Richard and try and fix the hesitation while it was at Dyno-comp , rather than sending it all the way back to Weistec . my dad decided he wanted to trailer the car to Dyno-comp so he could watch them do their thing . I had to stay back and take care of the family business .
my father called me and said that the car only made in the low 530s due to the issue . the headers and mids were switched to the MBH setup and the car made 570s . I didn't ask for dyno sheets or anything like that because the vehicle is not running correctly but it did gain power from switching headers and mids . after they were switched , Steve and Richard started sending files back and forth to fix the hesitation issue . in the end , the car had to go back to Weistec to get fixed and while there Steve upgraded my setup for my inconvenience . the car ended up making 641whp after being fixed and then upgraded .
so to sum it up........SLS QATAR is correct
my car made more power with the Weistec setup mated to the MBH setup . that's my story
09-12-2013, 11:39 AM
#78
Former Vendor of MBWorld
I got about 30 min before I leave to head to the shop as I usually get there around 9-9:30AM Arizona time. Should I pose on the bender like a model?
You are right we did not make the springs in house. I posted a picture of the kit we built that happened to have the springs in the picture than you ran with it assuming that. Since the picture was intended to show the customer what they would be getting, don't you think it would be nice to include the springs they would be getting in the picture?
Here is some more custom work we've done
R8 exhaust
Ferrari exhaust
You are right, the prototype picture on the site has had about 3 design changes since. A design change right after the the prototype was made the a design tweak a few years ago, With that said we are on "Gen 3" with our C63 headers. Soon to be moving on to "Gen 4" We dont make a stink about little tweaks we have made to the header system to make it what we feel better. In fact we dont even call then "Gen" Anything. If swapping builders, MIG welding a collector on and adding an Xpipe to the mid-section is your idea that constitutes a "Gen 2" designation, that is your prerogative.
We will call this header "Gen I can't remember"
You are right we did not make the springs in house. I posted a picture of the kit we built that happened to have the springs in the picture than you ran with it assuming that. Since the picture was intended to show the customer what they would be getting, don't you think it would be nice to include the springs they would be getting in the picture?
Here is some more custom work we've done
R8 exhaust
Ferrari exhaust
You are right, the prototype picture on the site has had about 3 design changes since. A design change right after the the prototype was made the a design tweak a few years ago, With that said we are on "Gen 3" with our C63 headers. Soon to be moving on to "Gen 4" We dont make a stink about little tweaks we have made to the header system to make it what we feel better. In fact we dont even call then "Gen" Anything. If swapping builders, MIG welding a collector on and adding an Xpipe to the mid-section is your idea that constitutes a "Gen 2" designation, that is your prerogative.
We will call this header "Gen I can't remember"
Last edited by MBH motorsports; 09-12-2013 at 11:44 AM.
09-12-2013, 12:28 PM
#80
Former Vendor of MBWorld
I never ask anything of my customers, I never ask them to endorse our product, hype it online or ask them to post in a thread. I never ask them to try and help boost my company.
We work hard to make and build top quality products, If people enjoy them, thats what makes me happy.
if there is a 3rd party test going on, we don't know about it. Some how Shell does? Then is hyping the test as if they already won. Sounds like a bias to the on set.
In the end though I could careless about that. I enjoy what I do, as well has making as many people as I can happy.
We work hard to make and build top quality products, If people enjoy them, thats what makes me happy.
if there is a 3rd party test going on, we don't know about it. Some how Shell does? Then is hyping the test as if they already won. Sounds like a bias to the on set.
In the end though I could careless about that. I enjoy what I do, as well has making as many people as I can happy.
09-12-2013, 01:38 PM
#81
Former Vendor of MBWorld
This should put an end to the lies. I took the hat off my head and took each picture.
MBH Mandrel Bender
MBH muffler fab
MBH exhaust tip press dies
MBH muffler building parts
MBH Mandrel Bender
MBH muffler fab
MBH exhaust tip press dies
MBH muffler building parts
09-12-2013, 01:50 PM
#82
I was sitting back and just reading but since my name has been brought into this , I will post my little $.02 and then let it go from there .
i'm not here to bash anyone because I have run both headers and had great customer service from both companies but this crap has gone on way too long .
I had the MHP setup when I was N/A . it made plenty of power but due to the slip-fit collectors , it started leak . we stuck the car up on the lift and noticed it was leaking pretty bad from multiple places . I was told by Andy to use a silicone to seal the gaps and was even sent extra tabs to weld on to the collector . I never welded new tabs but I did use the silicone and it worked for the leaks . a while passes..........
I decide to send my car to Weistec for the full treatment . the car gets delivered back to me but had a small hesitation and the exhaust leak decided to show it's ugly face again . I did some research and saw that MBH made headers with 2" primaries and from what I was told by many people , that was the way to go with the blower setup . I talked to Steve and told him I decided to send my car to Dyno-comp to switch headers and mids . Steve decided to contact Richard and try and fix the hesitation while it was at Dyno-comp , rather than sending it all the way back to Weistec . my dad decided he wanted to trailer the car to Dyno-comp so he could watch them do their thing . I had to stay back and take care of the family business .
my father called me and said that the car only made in the low 530s due to the issue . the headers and mids were switched to the MBH setup and the car made 570s . I didn't ask for dyno sheets or anything like that because the vehicle is not running correctly but it did gain power from switching headers and mids . after they were switched , Steve and Richard started sending files back and forth to fix the hesitation issue . in the end , the car had to go back to Weistec to get fixed and while there Steve upgraded my setup for my inconvenience . the car ended up making 641whp after being fixed and then upgraded .
so to sum it up........SLS QATAR is correct
my car made more power with the Weistec setup mated to the MBH setup . that's my story
i'm not here to bash anyone because I have run both headers and had great customer service from both companies but this crap has gone on way too long .
I had the MHP setup when I was N/A . it made plenty of power but due to the slip-fit collectors , it started leak . we stuck the car up on the lift and noticed it was leaking pretty bad from multiple places . I was told by Andy to use a silicone to seal the gaps and was even sent extra tabs to weld on to the collector . I never welded new tabs but I did use the silicone and it worked for the leaks . a while passes..........
I decide to send my car to Weistec for the full treatment . the car gets delivered back to me but had a small hesitation and the exhaust leak decided to show it's ugly face again . I did some research and saw that MBH made headers with 2" primaries and from what I was told by many people , that was the way to go with the blower setup . I talked to Steve and told him I decided to send my car to Dyno-comp to switch headers and mids . Steve decided to contact Richard and try and fix the hesitation while it was at Dyno-comp , rather than sending it all the way back to Weistec . my dad decided he wanted to trailer the car to Dyno-comp so he could watch them do their thing . I had to stay back and take care of the family business .
my father called me and said that the car only made in the low 530s due to the issue . the headers and mids were switched to the MBH setup and the car made 570s . I didn't ask for dyno sheets or anything like that because the vehicle is not running correctly but it did gain power from switching headers and mids . after they were switched , Steve and Richard started sending files back and forth to fix the hesitation issue . in the end , the car had to go back to Weistec to get fixed and while there Steve upgraded my setup for my inconvenience . the car ended up making 641whp after being fixed and then upgraded .
so to sum it up........SLS QATAR is correct
my car made more power with the Weistec setup mated to the MBH setup . that's my story
Im sorry but this is just idiotic to compare one header to another header when the car had a problem with something else and then state that mbh made 40 more horse lol. You had a leak and other issues, these cars run open loop and a exhaust leak by the 02 sensor is going to do all kinds of stupid things to the fuel trims.
if you think thats a good comparision you need to ooen your eyes. I could care less about what ppl buy, I state my experiences with these products and all have been good. Im sure mbh is awesome too. But that comparision is just plain blind. I heard you also added an x pipe with mbh setup, that alone will increase power to boot.
09-12-2013, 01:50 PM
#83
MBWorld Fanatic!
That is some awesome stuff MBH. PM inbound!
09-12-2013, 02:50 PM
#84
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C63
Here's what I got from all this.
ShellURT - Is a fanboy and probably shares his account with MHP Andy. I don't see how a customer can be so much involved in a performance shop when they don't directly own the business. Also his replies seems way too precise imo.
I read enough threads of MHP complaints in my time here to know I should probably steer clear.
To me ShellURT is doing more bad to MHP then good with all his talking smack to people here.
I wish ARH never teamed up with MHP. They probably wouldn't have if they knew all the drama that comes with MHP.
ARH name alone could sell plenty of C63 headers. They could also cut out the middle man MHP and make maximum profit?
I called ARH last year about a C63 header but they weren't making them yet. Now that they do, they had to team up with MHP. =(
MBH seems like a legit company which makes quality product. I wouldn't think twice if I wanted to order some parts from them.
ShellURT - Is a fanboy and probably shares his account with MHP Andy. I don't see how a customer can be so much involved in a performance shop when they don't directly own the business. Also his replies seems way too precise imo.
I read enough threads of MHP complaints in my time here to know I should probably steer clear.
To me ShellURT is doing more bad to MHP then good with all his talking smack to people here.
I wish ARH never teamed up with MHP. They probably wouldn't have if they knew all the drama that comes with MHP.
ARH name alone could sell plenty of C63 headers. They could also cut out the middle man MHP and make maximum profit?
I called ARH last year about a C63 header but they weren't making them yet. Now that they do, they had to team up with MHP. =(
MBH seems like a legit company which makes quality product. I wouldn't think twice if I wanted to order some parts from them.
09-12-2013, 03:02 PM
#85
MHP is a total rip off ! I have a friend right now that is getting his 6.2 N/A E63 all hooked up meaning ECU, MBH headers, X-pipe, Ported and Polished Race heads, Cams. Before I helped point him in the right direction, he got quoted $5000 dollars for headers from MHP !
complete rip off. MBH can be had for under $3000
complete rip off. MBH can be had for under $3000
09-12-2013, 03:22 PM
#86
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2009 AMG C63
09-12-2013, 03:30 PM
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2009 AMG C63
MBH your exhausts look very nice! That r8 is sexy lol...
As far as MHP and Gen 1.. it seemed to have its issues, i was patient, and donated my car for the Gen2 development, and when American Racing was involved looked forward to them because they do top notch work. I have not 1 complaint at all with the new setup. Its unfortunate, MHP has this rep because i really have had nothing but quality service, and the products and tune has felt great. I have not had a chance to drive in another companies tuned c63 so who knows what the difference is like.
Im just glad my car is getting a Diff put in it this weekend, because thats the only thing that truthfully annoys me about this car lol
As far as MHP and Gen 1.. it seemed to have its issues, i was patient, and donated my car for the Gen2 development, and when American Racing was involved looked forward to them because they do top notch work. I have not 1 complaint at all with the new setup. Its unfortunate, MHP has this rep because i really have had nothing but quality service, and the products and tune has felt great. I have not had a chance to drive in another companies tuned c63 so who knows what the difference is like.
Im just glad my car is getting a Diff put in it this weekend, because thats the only thing that truthfully annoys me about this car lol
09-12-2013, 03:44 PM
#88
MBWorld Fanatic!
Comparing a GTR to the C63 is like comparing a land rover to a mini cooper. AWD tuner car vs RWD luxury that happens to come with a 6+L engine.
Interesting.
10's is stock for cars these days? The gtr stock is a 10.87 and is hardly like every stock car on the road... Do you even know how fast 10's are/feel? That is stupid fast for a street car as is. And 8's?!?!?!!??! Wow.
Last edited by CarHopper; 09-12-2013 at 03:46 PM.
09-12-2013, 03:47 PM
#89
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2009 AMG C63
well any sports car... Vettes, Vipers, Porches, GTR's, things like that, basically with a good set of tires run 10's all day.
The e63 probably will be very close and easily in the 10's with a basic tune. And thats a fat whale of a luxury car. Its crazy these days how fast these cars are out of the box. I remember 650whp in my Supra back in the late 90's was unbeatable for the most part.
The e63 probably will be very close and easily in the 10's with a basic tune. And thats a fat whale of a luxury car. Its crazy these days how fast these cars are out of the box. I remember 650whp in my Supra back in the late 90's was unbeatable for the most part.
09-12-2013, 03:57 PM
#90
MBWorld Fanatic!
Right. But, you are talking a ZR1, Vipers, Porsche Turbo, GTR etc which are 100k+ cars.
I guess I need to remind myself I'm on a MB forum and those are everyday cars for many here.
The 5.5TT E63's are awesome though. Again, 100k+
I guess I need to remind myself I'm on a MB forum and those are everyday cars for many here.
The 5.5TT E63's are awesome though. Again, 100k+
09-12-2013, 03:59 PM
#91
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2009 AMG C63
yea but lucky for us.. MB AMG cars seem to depreciate at an insane rate. I am looking at a 2014 AWD E63 to purchase probably in the 2016 area. Keep my c63 for 3 years and cycle threw like that.. This way you eat up the big loss each time, just hunt for a nice low mileage elderly owner
09-12-2013, 04:09 PM
#92
MBWorld Fanatic!
Yea my plan is a 2012 e63 come spring time for <65-70k. I like the older front ends more than the 2014's
09-12-2013, 04:11 PM
#93
MBWorld Fanatic!
Couldn't have said it better.
The point of this thread is not who has the best headers (too many factors are involved to determine this- almost like the tuning war). It's more about Shell trying to help MHP, but instead is hurting MHP reputation badly by talking too much.. This is beyond my comprehension.
I'm not even in the market for headers (so NO I'm not an MBH fanboy) but after reading all this crap.. No one in their right mind will chose MHP over MBH based on their professionalism & customer service.
The point of this thread is not who has the best headers (too many factors are involved to determine this- almost like the tuning war). It's more about Shell trying to help MHP, but instead is hurting MHP reputation badly by talking too much.. This is beyond my comprehension.
I'm not even in the market for headers (so NO I'm not an MBH fanboy) but after reading all this crap.. No one in their right mind will chose MHP over MBH based on their professionalism & customer service.
Here's what I got from all this.
ShellURT - Is a fanboy and probably shares his account with MHP Andy. I don't see how a customer can be so much involved in a performance shop when they don't directly own the business. Also his replies seems way too precise imo.
I read enough threads of MHP complaints in my time here to know I should probably steer clear.
To me ShellURT is doing more bad to MHP then good with all his talking smack to people here.
I wish ARH never teamed up with MHP. They probably wouldn't have if they knew all the drama that comes with MHP.
ARH name alone could sell plenty of C63 headers. They could also cut out the middle man MHP and make maximum profit?
I called ARH last year about a C63 header but they weren't making them yet. Now that they do, they had to team up with MHP. =(
MBH seems like a legit company which makes quality product. I wouldn't think twice if I wanted to order some parts from them.
ShellURT - Is a fanboy and probably shares his account with MHP Andy. I don't see how a customer can be so much involved in a performance shop when they don't directly own the business. Also his replies seems way too precise imo.
I read enough threads of MHP complaints in my time here to know I should probably steer clear.
To me ShellURT is doing more bad to MHP then good with all his talking smack to people here.
I wish ARH never teamed up with MHP. They probably wouldn't have if they knew all the drama that comes with MHP.
ARH name alone could sell plenty of C63 headers. They could also cut out the middle man MHP and make maximum profit?
I called ARH last year about a C63 header but they weren't making them yet. Now that they do, they had to team up with MHP. =(
MBH seems like a legit company which makes quality product. I wouldn't think twice if I wanted to order some parts from them.
09-12-2013, 04:57 PM
#94
09-12-2013, 05:05 PM
#95
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c63
Mike,
Dont worry About insects. We all know what quality headers you bring to the table and is currently runnig on the fastest M156. The insect keeps talking about ET's and records targeted in cold weather and best DA conditions. Let us see him trapping those "Record" Et's in the west coast if he had some *****. He was called up to race Evosport's C63 in the West Coast and he ran away like a chicken..go figure. Moreover, his customer here in the UAE running MHP Tune/Header was elapsing 12.4 at the YAS drag. His customer also got smoked by some C63's from PP-Performance in the UAE
BTW, ByDesign Motorsports is a BIG performance shop in KSA. you can contact them and verify this. They had two simialry tuned C63's (Base Header tune and neither was custom). One had MHP and the other had MBH. The one with the MBH headers runs faster, Period. both were also Vbox tested and the one runnin with MBH was elapsing quicker times.
All the Weistec SC M156's running with MBH headers are making well over 600rwhp even the stage 2 cars from every part of the world. that includes my brother's 670rwhp SL63.It has been confirmed with the guys from Weistec that MBH makes more power with thier blowers. PERIOD!. Hey his own previous customer, Jason, A.K.A BAD430Benz was also running his "Superior" Headers, and proudly switched to MBH and gained 40-50rwhp. Numbers dont lie.
BTW, Shell URT is %200 Andrew Cluck. I dont know how you are misleading the admins of this great forum, but I have argued with you alot and read many of your pathetic posts to actually know that its you posting.
Dont worry About insects. We all know what quality headers you bring to the table and is currently runnig on the fastest M156. The insect keeps talking about ET's and records targeted in cold weather and best DA conditions. Let us see him trapping those "Record" Et's in the west coast if he had some *****. He was called up to race Evosport's C63 in the West Coast and he ran away like a chicken..go figure. Moreover, his customer here in the UAE running MHP Tune/Header was elapsing 12.4 at the YAS drag. His customer also got smoked by some C63's from PP-Performance in the UAE
BTW, ByDesign Motorsports is a BIG performance shop in KSA. you can contact them and verify this. They had two simialry tuned C63's (Base Header tune and neither was custom). One had MHP and the other had MBH. The one with the MBH headers runs faster, Period. both were also Vbox tested and the one runnin with MBH was elapsing quicker times.
All the Weistec SC M156's running with MBH headers are making well over 600rwhp even the stage 2 cars from every part of the world. that includes my brother's 670rwhp SL63.It has been confirmed with the guys from Weistec that MBH makes more power with thier blowers. PERIOD!. Hey his own previous customer, Jason, A.K.A BAD430Benz was also running his "Superior" Headers, and proudly switched to MBH and gained 40-50rwhp.
Numbers dont lie.BTW, Shell URT is %200 Andrew Cluck. I dont know how you are misleading the admins of this great forum, but I have argued with you alot and read many of your pathetic posts to actually know that its you posting.
Last edited by Vader63; 09-12-2013 at 05:08 PM.
09-12-2013, 05:08 PM
#96
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c63
I was sitting back and just reading but since my name has been brought into this , I will post my little $.02 and then let it go from there .
i'm not here to bash anyone because I have run both headers and had great customer service from both companies but this crap has gone on way too long .
I had the MHP setup when I was N/A . it made plenty of power but due to the slip-fit collectors , it started leak . we stuck the car up on the lift and noticed it was leaking pretty bad from multiple places . I was told by Andy to use a silicone to seal the gaps and was even sent extra tabs to weld on to the collector . I never welded new tabs but I did use the silicone and it worked for the leaks . a while passes..........
I decide to send my car to Weistec for the full treatment . the car gets delivered back to me but had a small hesitation and the exhaust leak decided to show it's ugly face again . I did some research and saw that MBH made headers with 2" primaries and from what I was told by many people , that was the way to go with the blower setup . I talked to Steve and told him I decided to send my car to Dyno-comp to switch headers and mids . Steve decided to contact Richard and try and fix the hesitation while it was at Dyno-comp , rather than sending it all the way back to Weistec . my dad decided he wanted to trailer the car to Dyno-comp so he could watch them do their thing . I had to stay back and take care of the family business .
my father called me and said that the car only made in the low 530s due to the issue . the headers and mids were switched to the MBH setup and the car made 570s . I didn't ask for dyno sheets or anything like that because the vehicle is not running correctly but it did gain power from switching headers and mids . after they were switched , Steve and Richard started sending files back and forth to fix the hesitation issue . in the end , the car had to go back to Weistec to get fixed and while there Steve upgraded my setup for my inconvenience . the car ended up making 641whp after being fixed and then upgraded .
so to sum it up........SLS QATAR is correct
my car made more power with the Weistec setup mated to the MBH setup . that's my story
i'm not here to bash anyone because I have run both headers and had great customer service from both companies but this crap has gone on way too long .
I had the MHP setup when I was N/A . it made plenty of power but due to the slip-fit collectors , it started leak . we stuck the car up on the lift and noticed it was leaking pretty bad from multiple places . I was told by Andy to use a silicone to seal the gaps and was even sent extra tabs to weld on to the collector . I never welded new tabs but I did use the silicone and it worked for the leaks . a while passes..........
I decide to send my car to Weistec for the full treatment . the car gets delivered back to me but had a small hesitation and the exhaust leak decided to show it's ugly face again . I did some research and saw that MBH made headers with 2" primaries and from what I was told by many people , that was the way to go with the blower setup . I talked to Steve and told him I decided to send my car to Dyno-comp to switch headers and mids . Steve decided to contact Richard and try and fix the hesitation while it was at Dyno-comp , rather than sending it all the way back to Weistec . my dad decided he wanted to trailer the car to Dyno-comp so he could watch them do their thing . I had to stay back and take care of the family business .
my father called me and said that the car only made in the low 530s due to the issue . the headers and mids were switched to the MBH setup and the car made 570s . I didn't ask for dyno sheets or anything like that because the vehicle is not running correctly but it did gain power from switching headers and mids . after they were switched , Steve and Richard started sending files back and forth to fix the hesitation issue . in the end , the car had to go back to Weistec to get fixed and while there Steve upgraded my setup for my inconvenience . the car ended up making 641whp after being fixed and then upgraded .
so to sum it up........SLS QATAR is correct
my car made more power with the Weistec setup mated to the MBH setup . that's my story
09-12-2013, 05:25 PM
#97
MBWorld Fanatic!
Im sorry but this is just idiotic to compare one header to another header when the car had a problem with something else and then state that mbh made 40 more horse lol. You had a leak and other issues, these cars run open loop and a exhaust leak by the 02 sensor is going to do all kinds of stupid things to the fuel trims.
if you think thats a good comparision you need to ooen your eyes. I could care less about what ppl buy, I state my experiences with these products and all have been good. Im sure mbh is awesome too. But that comparision is just plain blind. I heard you also added an x pipe with mbh setup, that alone will increase power to boot.
if you think thats a good comparision you need to ooen your eyes. I could care less about what ppl buy, I state my experiences with these products and all have been good. Im sure mbh is awesome too. But that comparision is just plain blind. I heard you also added an x pipe with mbh setup, that alone will increase power to boot.
like I said before , i'm only telling the story of what happened to me . the car was put on the dyno by Richard and kept hesitating at the same point after full throttle with both MHP and MBH setups .
09-12-2013, 05:35 PM
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E63 Biturbo
Im sorry but this is just idiotic to compare one header to another header when the car had a problem with something else and then state that mbh made 40 more horse lol. You had a leak and other issues, these cars run open loop and a exhaust leak by the 02 sensor is going to do all kinds of stupid things to the fuel trims.
if you think thats a good comparision you need to ooen your eyes. I could care less about what ppl buy, I state my experiences with these products and all have been good. Im sure mbh is awesome too. But that comparision is just plain blind. I heard you also added an x pipe with mbh setup, that alone will increase power to boot.
if you think thats a good comparision you need to ooen your eyes. I could care less about what ppl buy, I state my experiences with these products and all have been good. Im sure mbh is awesome too. But that comparision is just plain blind. I heard you also added an x pipe with mbh setup, that alone will increase power to boot.
09-12-2013, 05:39 PM
#100
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E63 Biturbo
Did I Call It With the Fanboys? LOL
Thank You!!!!
Driver's side header, I see 6 non parallel cut and welds alone. Filler rod in at least 4 of those same welds. That is what I'm talking about as far as lack of quality in design & construction. Evidently these weren't major concerns of yours (even though a novice exhaust shop knows what a cheater bend is) in the 4 redesigns you kept on the DL.
Case proven by your own pics. Non arguable facts. Finally.
Fan boys keep it up, none of you even know what you're looking at LOL.
