zibby43

I agree with you that once the face-lifted/LCI C63 came out in 2012, it was game over time for the E9X M3s. The C63 finally got the chassis to compete with the M3 and always had more power and more of a fun factor on the open road.

I also agree that the C63 Black Series was way more of an impressive engineering exercise than any of the "special" edition M3s (e.g., the Lime Rock Edition or the M3 CRT Sedan).

JumpinJim

There are plenty of vids out of M5 vs E63S out now. Once the awd advantage is gone at speed the M5 will pull away. Also the mags comparisons all have the M5 with higher trap speeds in the 1/4 mile. Haven't gotten to race one myself yet. The RWD only E63s trapper faster and were more of a match.


This M5 is my first BMW. I've had an AMG in my garage of some sort or another continuously since 2002. I don't consider myself a fanboy of AMG though, or BMW or anything else. AMG produces cars I like, but I stay objective to what's out there and can give credit where credit is due and be critical where it's deserved.


Like the C63 limp mode. There's no excuse for AMG to allow that to continue. It should have never been released like that in the first place.

jrcart

Ya, not sure why they never sold the E92 CSL M3 here in the states, it came close to Black Series performance. Being the owner of a 1995 M3 Lightweight(CSL) I would have probably scooped one of the new ones up.

jrcart

No limp mode issues with my C63 BS.

Don't trust what the magazines publishes. BMWs are running on average 1/10th slower that published times as where E63's are running a tenth or two quicker than advertised. Trust me, your stock F10 will not outrun a E63 rwd or awd, not in a short sprint or a long run. You can not simply look at their trap speeds and determine which is quicker.

Here is what happened to the last guy that thought he had a fast F10....for the record he picked the fight with me, I tried talking him out of it but he insisted he had a chance. He never let off he was in the gas the entire race. FYI this is my slow car lol

pfl

BMW fixed a lot of things that were wrong with the E90/92/93.


Brakes (now CCB)
Weight (200lbs lighter)
Torque (over 100 more and at much lower RPMs)


however, I think the 4L TT C63 AWD should do well against this beast.

JumpinJim

The BS has better coolers and front end so it doesn't affect them. It's the other ones that have the issue. It can be solved by putting the BS coolers on. I heard AMG thinks it may be an air cavitation problem with the facelifted bumper.


I traded a tuned CLS63 biturbo for the M5 so I have a pretty good idea of what both will do. I know the M5 will run dead even with my SL63 as I've taken both to the track many times, even at the same time with another members help. I've run several C63s with tunes and headers at the dragstrip and didn't have any problem winning. A blown and then some c63 BS not a good comparison.

zibby43

That's awesome that you had the opportunity to own the '95 CSL M3. That was an ultra-rare car.

As far as special editions go regarding the E9X chassis, I've only driven the E92 Lime Rock. The M Performance exhaust sounded nice but still couldn't really compete with the note associated with the 6.2L in the C63.

Have you ever had the chance to drive one of these: http://www.topspeed.com/cars/bmw/201...ar111725.html?

If so, what were you impressions?

izzy63

e63s makes about 620+ hp lol n dude 0-60 3.2 sec

JumpinJim

So does the M5. 0-60 means nothing if the cars are already moving. AWD does more harm that good at speed. It only helps for the initial launch then it's dead weight. The E63S would be a good stoplight racer, but from a highway or rolling race I don't think it will fare well. Especially with the M5s far better transmission. There are only a few youtube videos out of races between the two. If it's from a standing start the E63S always gets a jump, but it always gets caught and overtaken. From a rolling start the E63S is always behind. The AWD hurts it too much there.


However, most races are from a stop and that is where the E63S really shines. Play to your strengths.

izzy63

from a roll or from stop e63s wins the m5 the m5 simply doesn't have enough torque or hp to keep up with it lol do ur research bro m5 doesn't do 60 in 3.2 and acceleration from a dead stop tends to be more fun then from a roll just my 2c

rory breaker

While I can appreciate that your commentary comes from experience (owning a cls and an f10) I too disagree with you. F10 should not beat a 2014 e63 s in any head to head scenario. If you tune both, the difference should be even more pronounced. Besides an ambiguous youtube video (unless you were there and know all the details yourself), any addl proof?

callmiro

Documented

VaclavSV

My father has a stock 2014 E63S 4M -Its faster than an M5 in every way. We raced our friends a few times from a roll on the hwy and it wasn't close... not even once. The E63 consistently pulled! Im sorry to burst your bubble but the E63 is faster. Im not saying its a better car because they are different but the AMG wins in terms of pace and speed.

JumpinJim

Haven't run across one myself yet. Just basing it off experience and owning other awd cars being slower on the big end. Also from various reviews in magazines showing the E63S impressive from 0, but from a 30 roll they show slower times and put up slower trap speeds overall. The dealership here had one a few weeks ago I wanted to borrow for a while to do some testing, which they usually let me do, but they didn't want to let this one leave the showroom floor. I borrowed an '07 E63 when they came out and we raced it against my '06 E55 and the 63 didn't fare well so I passed on the "upgrade".

jrcart

You can not compare a 2007 E63 to a 2014 E63, they are two entirely different cars whose motors make and deliver hp entirely differently.

How far are you from Addison, TX? I have a friend there with a brand new 2014 E63S, he would be glad to line up with your M5, he actually traded in an E60 M5 for the E.

JumpinJim

Yes, the E63S had a slower trap speed than the M5. On the big end on a highway pull the E would be slower due to awd taking it's toll. It's like my SL63 vs a buddies GTR. In the 1/4 mile he kills me from a dead stop with his awd, but I put up higher trap speeds. On a rolling race I beat him every time.

JumpinJim

Wasn't trying to compare the '07 to the '14, was sharing the 06' vs '07 for giggles.

I'm in Plano. Would love to run one just to see. Maybe it'll convince me to trade.

SMP

This is the ONLY post in that has any kind of relevance … because it's first hand experience. He took both his F10 M5 and SL63 to the track … there are dead even … and the SL63 is 400 lbs. lighter

I like AMG's … still own my CLK and had a few in the past. I also like my M5 and all the other M's and Porsche's I owned over the years. By owning different makes in the same performance category at the same time one can make an unbiased comparison.

JumpinJim

286 lbs lighter to be precise. SL was 4039 lbs and M5 was 4325 lbs on the track scale both with 1/8 tank of gas. They were silly close in power as well. 519 rwhp for the SL and 521 rwhp for the M5 on the same dyno. I expected the SL to walk it due to the M5 being so much heavier, but that was not the case. They were dead even down to the tenth of a second or mph. You had to dip into the hudreths of a second or mph to find a differene. I can only attribute it to the DCT being that much better than the MCT is all I can think of.

SMP

Thanks for the correction … typed this on my phone while my wife was on the operating table. My mind was elsewhere

You would know better since you own both, but I think it's a combination of the M5's power band and DCT. It's in my opinion a perfect match and makes the whole package VERY efficient. Anyways, both great cars!

avery.whss

my sister owned a BMW and she said it's the worst car company to deal with, and infact someone the other day who i don't even know just bought a BMW and was saying how BMW won't service the car, i don't care how well BMW makes their car's..the fact I heard from 2 people that they suck *** at customer service makes me never want to buy one, while on the other hand MB basically bends over for anyone it seems like, even my grandma who owns a cheap chevy went into MB and was treated better then she was at the chevy dealer.

JumpinJim

I've only have experience with one BMW, but so far mine has been good. I think it all comes down to what the dealership is like and not the brand itself. BMW does offer some perks that MB doesn't that I wish they would. For example routine services like oil changes etc are free. MB charges you for prepaid maint. BMWs free maintenance also covers brake pads and rotors, which for someone who enjoys hitting the track now and then that's a big plus. The M5 is not so good on the road course though. The SL is much better there. It's lighter, lower center of gravity, and has a better suspension setup.

Some other things I've learned since buying the BMW has to do with how involved the brand and dealerships are with motorsports. This may be area specific, but BMW dealers sponsor track days for owners several times a year whereas none of the MB dealerships do. The BMW club is also far more involved with their own track days and DE events throughout the year. The local BMW club even rented out COTA in Austin for 3 consecutive days this year in March for DE. That's pretty impressive as it's the most expensive track in the country to rent out right now. The MB club on the other hand couldn't rent out MSR for 1/2 a day without the help of the Audi and Ferrai clubs. That's pretty sad. I wish MB and AMG dealers and clubs would be more involved like that. There's BMWs all over the tracks, but nary an AMG to be found. Their cars may have caught up to the M division, but they're nowhere near as close when it comes to involving the community.

SMP

I guess it all depends what kind of relationship you have with your dealer. I use the same dealer where I buy my cars for service … which I think helps. After owning 11 BMW's including 5 M's, I always feel taking care off in regards to service.

Since I own an M and an AMG or a Porsche at the same time, I can tell you things went wrong equally, no matter which brand. S!ht happens once in a while … that's just part of life. Off the top of my head … on my CLK55 the dealership destroyed a tire during a routine maintenance … on my E63 M6 they didn't put enough engine oil in and after driving the car for a couple of miles, I had to pull over because of "stop engine immediately" … "Low engine oil". I always carry a quart of oil in the trunk, so I wasn't stranded.

Surely annoying … but worse things can happen. After all, it's just a car … nothing more, nothing less

jrcart

Back in the mid 90's when I purchased my first of several M3's(2 E36 and 2E46) I was very pleased with BMW's customer service both at the dealer level and at the regional level. I think a lot of customer service issues stem from individual dealerships rather than a company as a whole, I beleive that is probably the case with most brands. By the time the mid 2000's came around I definately noticed a big difference in customer service. I owned one of the first E60 M5's in the country, I owned such an early release car it came over with european tuning and mine had launch control which was not offered on US spec cars. In all there were 11 cars(if I recall) that came to the US with the euro tuning and launch control. There was a recall on those 11 cars so I brought the car in and they had it for 22 days. Yep, I had a 2 week old car that was recalled and then sat in the dealership for over three weeks while they sorted the tuning issue. After I got the car back I had a number of electronics issues, the car sucked, it was never right. I owned the heap of crap for less than a year and then traded it in for a Lingenfelter CTS-V(another peice of crap LOL). I would be hard pressed to ever buy another BMW after that experience and thankfully BMW is making it pretty easy since IMO they have not offered anything worth owning in quite some time now. I do personally like the front end styling on the new M3/M4 a huge improvment over the E9X's vanilla styling but I will have to wait and see some real world performance figures from it before I can pass real judgment.

Sasha/SMP, you are defending the brand which is great but you say you have owned 11 BMW's/ 5 M cars, can you honestly say that M offerings of the last 5-6 years have been up to par with their offerings from say 1995-2008? The last good M car in my opinion was the Z4 M Coupe. All I am saying is for a while there M cars were the undisputed best cars out there, AMG had nothing for them, Audi had nothing for them. While I am not saying M cars are garbage what I am saying is they have not progressed at the same level as their competition. They were the benchmark and now they are trying to catch up. I own a 2012 Audi S6, not a huge power car but a good dd, I looked at an X drive 535 and 550 but I was not impressed, even the BMW interiors have gone downhill IMO, my Audi has quilted stitched seats door panals, alcantara headliner and wheel, you can not get that stuff on a 550 and the RS6 takes it up a notch from my S6, my S6 has a better interior than the new M5.

jrcart

Trust me, you are paying for that "free maintainance" with your BMW, they hid it somewhere in the MSRP. Also, be careful with those "free brakes" after track events, poke around on a few of the BMW boards and see how many guys got their stuff revoked for track use, BMW does not think highly of this, AMG on the other hand has never voided a warranty simply for recreational track use. BMW is nearly as bad as Nissan when it comes to prohibiting track use.

I agree with you that BMW car club is a little better than anything MB/AMG offers but when you purchase an AMG you do get free addmission to the AMG driving academy which I have attended and is top notch. They also offer a few AMG PL track events thrown in each year.