M4 dynos at 424whp and 425wtq :O
06-22-2014, 04:18 PM
#76
The 507 is faster to 124
The conspiracy is that bmw underrates thier cars lol why?
06-22-2014, 04:25 PM
#77
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Location: MI
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E92 M3
You need to be objective
It's not faster. Dynos are BS
I'm no fan boy, 6 BMW's before this (3 m3, 535i, 2002 and my wides 735i, over a 30 year period and well over 1/2 mil miles)
My first MB
The numbers are BS
507 445/507
M4 485/490 according to this dyno
M4 600 lb lighter, dct, better balance,larger tires
Yet to 124 mph the c63 is faster
Same driver, test procedure, location, alt density
How can this be?
Look at torque / weight
Why? Everyone uses wt/power
F = ma or a = F/m
F = torque x gear ratio / tire radius - losses or thrust
So t/wt is proportional to acceleration
Lets assume
Wt = 4000 lb
Tire r = 1' to make the math easy
Losses 10%
Avg torque x gears ~ 2500 lb ft net 2250
F or thrust = 2250 lb ft / 1' = 2250 lbs
a = F/m = 2250 lbs / 4000 lbs = 0.56 (lbs cancel...what unit?)
Since we used lbs for wt and did not convert to slugs
a = 0.56 is in g force
The true measure of a cars ability to accelerate is t/m
t / m
M4 0.136 no units since gearing and r not considered
507 0.107
Both with 200 lbs of load
The M4 is almost 30% higher accel factor
Why then is the 507 faster to 124 mph
Do not take numbers at face value
Think for yourself
Convince yourself
Anyone who equates shame or pride with car speed is a douche
It's easy to say the new z06 will smoke a c63
It's not as clear with the m4
It's not faster. Dynos are BS
I'm no fan boy, 6 BMW's before this (3 m3, 535i, 2002 and my wides 735i, over a 30 year period and well over 1/2 mil miles)
My first MB
The numbers are BS
507 445/507
M4 485/490 according to this dyno
M4 600 lb lighter, dct, better balance,larger tires
Yet to 124 mph the c63 is faster
Same driver, test procedure, location, alt density
How can this be?
Look at torque / weight
Why? Everyone uses wt/power
F = ma or a = F/m
F = torque x gear ratio / tire radius - losses or thrust
So t/wt is proportional to acceleration
Lets assume
Wt = 4000 lb
Tire r = 1' to make the math easy
Losses 10%
Avg torque x gears ~ 2500 lb ft net 2250
F or thrust = 2250 lb ft / 1' = 2250 lbs
a = F/m = 2250 lbs / 4000 lbs = 0.56 (lbs cancel...what unit?)
Since we used lbs for wt and did not convert to slugs
a = 0.56 is in g force
The true measure of a cars ability to accelerate is t/m
t / m
M4 0.136 no units since gearing and r not considered
507 0.107
Both with 200 lbs of load
The M4 is almost 30% higher accel factor
Why then is the 507 faster to 124 mph
Do not take numbers at face value
Think for yourself
Convince yourself
Anyone who equates shame or pride with car speed is a douche
It's easy to say the new z06 will smoke a c63
It's not as clear with the m4
06-22-2014, 04:35 PM
#78
http://www.stealth316.com/2-calc-hp-et-mph.htm
Very good et/trap/power estimator
Using 4100 lb as a baseline
450 hp 110.6
500 114
3700 lb 450 hp
114
400 lbs is a 50 hp advantage
Hard to est the amg
Unusual engine, big torque wide band
Again
If they are ~ = to 124 (507 is 13.5 and m4 is 13.7)
And the m weighs at least 400 lbs less
And has more torque and similar power
Why isn't it faster??
Simple question
Very good et/trap/power estimator
Using 4100 lb as a baseline
450 hp 110.6
500 114
3700 lb 450 hp
114
400 lbs is a 50 hp advantage
Hard to est the amg
Unusual engine, big torque wide band
Again
If they are ~ = to 124 (507 is 13.5 and m4 is 13.7)
And the m weighs at least 400 lbs less
And has more torque and similar power
Why isn't it faster??
Simple question
Last edited by Ingenieur; 06-22-2014 at 04:38 PM.
06-22-2014, 04:37 PM
#79
MBWorld Fanatic!
06-22-2014, 04:45 PM
#80
You know people have trapped that bone stock especially the face lifted models with MCT and p31. tta850(c63 coupe p31) on this forum ran an 11.9 @ 119.x at a drag strip(100% stock down to tires) ! And the strip reads lower than a vbox that has been proven. Neither car has a clear advantage it will be a good race and the closer to sea level it is the better the c63 will do.
Tta850 is at sea level so that's why the numbers are ideal. Going up in elevation will have the c63 losing power while the m4 will up boost to compensate. I think it's awesome it can still compete being a last gen car now
Tta850 is at sea level so that's why the numbers are ideal. Going up in elevation will have the c63 losing power while the m4 will up boost to compensate. I think it's awesome it can still compete being a last gen car now
06-22-2014, 04:48 PM
#81
that's a very general statement. some strips are heart-breakers while others just leave you going "how the f***?"
i'll give the 119 the benefit of the doubt, but just out of curiosity, what track did he go to?
edit: and i'm not entirely sure it's fair to compare the p31 package to a stock m4, but that's debatable. it'd be like getting the "performance" flash that the lower model BMWs are offered.
i'll give the 119 the benefit of the doubt, but just out of curiosity, what track did he go to?
edit: and i'm not entirely sure it's fair to compare the p31 package to a stock m4, but that's debatable. it'd be like getting the "performance" flash that the lower model BMWs are offered.
06-22-2014, 04:53 PM
#82
I think it's fair especially given the w205 c63 will be released soon and were comparing last gen vs current gen. It's all speculation anyway well have to see real world results I just like to know what I'm facing when we meet up on the highway :-)
Last edited by Ezec63; 06-22-2014 at 04:56 PM.
06-22-2014, 04:55 PM
#83
MBWorld Fanatic!
You need to be objective
It's not faster. Dynos are BS
I'm no fan boy, 6 BMW's before this (3 m3, 535i, 2002 and my wides 735i, over a 30 year period and well over 1/2 mil miles)
My first MB
The numbers are BS
507 445/507
M4 485/490 according to this dyno
M4 600 lb lighter, dct, better balance,larger tires
Yet to 124 mph the c63 is faster
Same driver, test procedure, location, alt density
How can this be?
Look at torque / weight
Why? Everyone uses wt/power
F = ma or a = F/m
F = torque x gear ratio / tire radius - losses or thrust
So t/wt is proportional to acceleration
Lets assume
Wt = 4000 lb
Tire r = 1' to make the math easy
Losses 10%
Avg torque x gears ~ 2500 lb ft net 2250
F or thrust = 2250 lb ft / 1' = 2250 lbs
a = F/m = 2250 lbs / 4000 lbs = 0.56 (lbs cancel...what unit?)
Since we used lbs for wt and did not convert to slugs
a = 0.56 is in g force
The true measure of a cars ability to accelerate is t/m
t / m
M4 0.136 no units since gearing and r not considered
507 0.107
Both with 200 lbs of load
The M4 is almost 30% higher accel factor
Why then is the 507 faster to 124 mph
Do not take numbers at face value
Think for yourself
Convince yourself
Anyone who equates shame or pride with car speed is a douche
It's easy to say the new z06 will smoke a c63
It's not as clear with the m4
It's not faster. Dynos are BS
I'm no fan boy, 6 BMW's before this (3 m3, 535i, 2002 and my wides 735i, over a 30 year period and well over 1/2 mil miles)
My first MB
The numbers are BS
507 445/507
M4 485/490 according to this dyno
M4 600 lb lighter, dct, better balance,larger tires
Yet to 124 mph the c63 is faster
Same driver, test procedure, location, alt density
How can this be?
Look at torque / weight
Why? Everyone uses wt/power
F = ma or a = F/m
F = torque x gear ratio / tire radius - losses or thrust
So t/wt is proportional to acceleration
Lets assume
Wt = 4000 lb
Tire r = 1' to make the math easy
Losses 10%
Avg torque x gears ~ 2500 lb ft net 2250
F or thrust = 2250 lb ft / 1' = 2250 lbs
a = F/m = 2250 lbs / 4000 lbs = 0.56 (lbs cancel...what unit?)
Since we used lbs for wt and did not convert to slugs
a = 0.56 is in g force
The true measure of a cars ability to accelerate is t/m
t / m
M4 0.136 no units since gearing and r not considered
507 0.107
Both with 200 lbs of load
The M4 is almost 30% higher accel factor
Why then is the 507 faster to 124 mph
Do not take numbers at face value
Think for yourself
Convince yourself
Anyone who equates shame or pride with car speed is a douche
It's easy to say the new z06 will smoke a c63
It's not as clear with the m4
Last time you ran your mouth and claimed that you owned an E60 M5. I asked you for a pic of your "imaginary M5". No wonder you didn't post a pic of it and retreated ... you couldn't ... never owned that car according to your own list you posted
Thanks for validating that you're full of it
06-22-2014, 04:59 PM
#84
This would be simplier and less contentous if instead of BMW and AMG we used x and y
Without knowing which was assigned each lol
Thses are different cars with different design objectives and targeted market segments ( not sure this is as distinct as many make it)
One is a sportier more involved lighter and quicker car
One is a heavier more luxury focused easier to drive cruiser
One screams
One roars
Both great cars
Choices are good
We lose that perspective when we disect 0.1 sec and 1 mph crap
There will always be someone
Faster car
Richer
Smarter
Better looking
Cuter wife
'Cooler'
Wetf
If you go down 'keeping up with the jonses' rabbit hole you are ****ed for life
You'll be dying before you realize what a stupid waste of life
Drove mine today
Amazing car, felt perfect
Yet 90% of the posts around here
Dissatisfied: need to mod, lower, faster, different trim
Or complaining; headbolts, I can only load 5000 songs, etc
I just don't get it
Without knowing which was assigned each lol
Thses are different cars with different design objectives and targeted market segments ( not sure this is as distinct as many make it)
One is a sportier more involved lighter and quicker car
One is a heavier more luxury focused easier to drive cruiser
One screams
One roars
Both great cars
Choices are good
We lose that perspective when we disect 0.1 sec and 1 mph crap
There will always be someone
Faster car
Richer
Smarter
Better looking
Cuter wife
'Cooler'
Wetf
If you go down 'keeping up with the jonses' rabbit hole you are ****ed for life
You'll be dying before you realize what a stupid waste of life
Drove mine today
Amazing car, felt perfect
Yet 90% of the posts around here
Dissatisfied: need to mod, lower, faster, different trim
Or complaining; headbolts, I can only load 5000 songs, etc
I just don't get it
06-22-2014, 05:00 PM
#85
This would be simplier and less contentous if instead of BMW and AMG we used x and y
Without knowing which was assigned each lol
Thses are different cars with different design objectives and targeted market segments ( not sure this is as distinct as many make it)
One is a sportier more involved lighter and quicker car
One is a heavier more luxury focused easier to drive cruiser
One screams
One roars
Both great cars
Choices are good
We lose that perspective when we disect 0.1 sec and 1 mph crap
There will always be someone
Faster car
Richer
Smarter
Better looking
Cuter wife
'Cooler'
Wetf
If you go down 'keeping up with the jonses' rabbit hole you are ****ed for life
You'll be dying before you realize what a stupid waste of life
Drove mine today
Amazing car, felt perfect
Yet 90% of the posts around here
Dissatisfied: need to mod, lower, faster, different trim
Or complaining; headbolts, I can only load 5000 songs, etc
I just don't get it
Without knowing which was assigned each lol
Thses are different cars with different design objectives and targeted market segments ( not sure this is as distinct as many make it)
One is a sportier more involved lighter and quicker car
One is a heavier more luxury focused easier to drive cruiser
One screams
One roars
Both great cars
Choices are good
We lose that perspective when we disect 0.1 sec and 1 mph crap
There will always be someone
Faster car
Richer
Smarter
Better looking
Cuter wife
'Cooler'
Wetf
If you go down 'keeping up with the jonses' rabbit hole you are ****ed for life
You'll be dying before you realize what a stupid waste of life
Drove mine today
Amazing car, felt perfect
Yet 90% of the posts around here
Dissatisfied: need to mod, lower, faster, different trim
Or complaining; headbolts, I can only load 5000 songs, etc
I just don't get it
wat?
06-22-2014, 05:02 PM
#86
that's a very general statement. some strips are heart-breakers while others just leave you going "how the f***?"
i'll give the 119 the benefit of the doubt, but just out of curiosity, what track did he go to?
edit: and i'm not entirely sure it's fair to compare the p31 package to a stock m4, but that's debatable. it'd be like getting the "performance" flash that the lower model BMWs are offered.
i'll give the 119 the benefit of the doubt, but just out of curiosity, what track did he go to?
edit: and i'm not entirely sure it's fair to compare the p31 package to a stock m4, but that's debatable. it'd be like getting the "performance" flash that the lower model BMWs are offered.
Thry measure an average speed
V box instantaneous
Fact
If the strip uses nhra methods they are consistent re: timing and speed
The variable is traction and weather/altitude
06-22-2014, 05:08 PM
#89
Two kinds of people in this world ... the doers and the talkers ... you obviously belong to the latter category.
Last time you ran your mouth and claimed that you owned an E60 M5. I asked you for a pic of your "imaginary M5". No wonder you didn't post a pic of it and retreated ... you couldn't ... never owned that car according to your own list you posted
Thanks for validating that you're full of it
Last time you ran your mouth and claimed that you owned an E60 M5. I asked you for a pic of your "imaginary M5". No wonder you didn't post a pic of it and retreated ... you couldn't ... never owned that car according to your own list you posted
Thanks for validating that you're full of it
Forgot to list those
Apparently you are niether
Great wife
Great kids
masters engineering
Respected and rewarded professionally
Army officer
Martial arts >40 years
Lived in the AK bush for years
Well travelled
You: internet hero and a legend in your own mind
What a small minded loser
More shyte than a chicken shack
Taking a poser pic on a bike does not qualify one as a doer
You do realize thinking IS DOING?
Of course you don't fancy pants lol
Last edited by Ingenieur; 06-22-2014 at 05:16 PM.
06-22-2014, 05:22 PM
#91
MBWorld Fanatic!
2 m5's e28 & e60
Forgot to list those
Apparently you are niether
Great wife
Great kids
masters engineering
Respected and rewarded professionally
Army officer
Martial arts >40 years
Lived in the AK bush for years
Well travelled
Taking a poser pic on a bike does not qualify one as a doer
You do realize thinking IS DOING?
Of course you don't fancy pants lol
Forgot to list those
Apparently you are niether
Great wife
Great kids
masters engineering
Respected and rewarded professionally
Army officer
Martial arts >40 years
Lived in the AK bush for years
Well travelled
Taking a poser pic on a bike does not qualify one as a doer
You do realize thinking IS DOING?
Of course you don't fancy pants lol
Well, in this case, picture of both of them. Because you're "such a respected professional" I'm sure you will post pics immediately. So, let's see them! Otherwise you should stick to your signature moto ... you know, the part where it says to keep your mouth shut.My guess, you'll retreat again ... like last time
Thank you again for validating my point ... you are just a talker
06-22-2014, 05:30 PM
#92
All I gotta say is...people on this fourm need to chill out and stay humble..reality is, all our cars, money, skyscrapers, all those "great human accomplishments" in reality mean jack ****..real talk.
06-22-2014, 05:31 PM
#93
LOL, I knew you would come up with that lame excuse Well, in this case, picture of both of them. Because you're "such a respected professional" I'm sure you will post pics immediately. So, let's see them! Otherwise you should stick to your signature moto ... you know, the part where it says to keep your mouth shut.
My guess, you'll retreat again ... like last time
Thank you again for validating my point ... you are just a talker
Well, in this case, picture of both of them. Because you're "such a respected professional" I'm sure you will post pics immediately. So, let's see them! Otherwise you should stick to your signature moto ... you know, the part where it says to keep your mouth shut.My guess, you'll retreat again ... like last time
Thank you again for validating my point ... you are just a talker
better lame excuses that just plain lame
retreat/ lol you seek validation in chat rooms? what a loser
better not **** you off, you might strap on a diaper and hunt me down on a cross country madness tour
I can tell you are a spoilt little brat who never did a damn thing for themselves
if you think you can 'retreat' in a chat room you have never been in a real world situation that requires 'retreat'
nothing ventured, nothing gained, you are nothing
sugar britches, if you think I care what you think (why should I? you obviously don't) you are more irrational than your posts suggest
demeaning me does not raise you, you are still a sad little boy
buck up buck-a-roo!! lol
I could equalize our intellects but that would require me to have a lobotomy and GSW to the head
we DROVE cars, not pose with them for status, lol
we weren't self obsessed with how others perceived us because we had such low self esteem.
thank you for proving mine: you are a shallow man without substance
soccer time
have fun inside your head
smacking you around intellectually is getting boring
like when you kick your puppy
Last edited by Ingenieur; 06-22-2014 at 05:45 PM.
06-22-2014, 05:35 PM
#94
Member
I have an easy solution. Get both the M4 and new C63 coupe (or whatever MB calls the successor) or M3/C63 sedan. Do a drag race and take them both around a track. The new M3/M4 look great, but I also can't wait to see how MB responds.
06-22-2014, 05:36 PM
#95
the 1st video might be a good comparison
06-22-2014, 05:38 PM
#96
less than that
not even a ripple in an ocean
soon gone, sooner forgotten
if you determine your value based on the value of your possessions, you are truly ****ed...many here are
a short lonely life, followed by a slow lonely death
priorities are askew
06-22-2014, 05:43 PM
#97
sportauto did a supertest for each
M4
507 sedan
track about 1 sec in a 72 sec lap
0-124
M4 13.7
507 13.5
same driver, same methods, everything the same
M4 >400 lbs lighter (they say closer to 600), ceramic brakes, DCT, wider and better tires (255 vs 265, P5 vs PSS), better balance, etc.
all I'm saying is if the M4 had the numbers the OP suggests, it would be much faster
time will tell
M4 tests will be coming soon, we'll see
06-22-2014, 05:51 PM
#98
nobody mentioned the substantial differences
'Ring time
same driver, best of numerous laps
M4 7:52
C63 coupe PP (not 507) 8:01
most of it down to:
wt. difference
ceramic brakes
wider & better tires
better balance
CoG, the M4 is low slung
about a 2% difference
substantial
'Ring time
same driver, best of numerous laps
M4 7:52
C63 coupe PP (not 507) 8:01
most of it down to:
wt. difference
ceramic brakes
wider & better tires
better balance
CoG, the M4 is low slung
about a 2% difference
substantial
Last edited by Ingenieur; 06-22-2014 at 05:55 PM.
06-22-2014, 05:53 PM
#99
Super Member
You know people have trapped that bone stock especially the face lifted models with MCT and p31. tta850(c63 coupe p31) on this forum ran an 11.9 @ 119.x at a drag strip(100% stock down to tires) ! And the strip reads lower than a vbox that has been proven. Neither car has a clear advantage it will be a good race and the closer to sea level it is the better the c63 will do.
Tta850 is at sea level so that's why the numbers are ideal. Going up in elevation will have the c63 losing power while the m4 will up boost to compensate. I think it's awesome it can still compete being a last gen car now
Tta850 is at sea level so that's why the numbers are ideal. Going up in elevation will have the c63 losing power while the m4 will up boost to compensate. I think it's awesome it can still compete being a last gen car now
Drag strips aren't the be-all, end-all either. Here in Dallas TX on your average day a stock C63 won't even trap 110. A tuned one will barely break 110. One with tune and headers won't quite get you to 115. Unless the cars are run on the same track at the same time any comparison is pointless. Same as with dynos.
06-22-2014, 06:01 PM
#100
this 'my car is faster than your car' drivel reminds me of the 'my Johnson is bigger than yours' imbecilic crap
I can't believe people of such low mentality can afford these types of cars lol
when was the last time anyone took their car on a twisty back road for an hour just to drive and ENJOY it?
to 'feel' it
the balance
speed
handling
quality
the whole package
and be thankful for the privilege
I can't believe people of such low mentality can afford these types of cars lol
when was the last time anyone took their car on a twisty back road for an hour just to drive and ENJOY it?
to 'feel' it
the balance
speed
handling
quality
the whole package
and be thankful for the privilege
Last edited by Ingenieur; 06-22-2014 at 06:04 PM.
