Southways

Having been involved in the calibration industry for too many years, with too many platforms and software variants, there are a few things that can be stated as absolutes:
- Any manipulation of the code leaves a trace, including the self-learning. In most systems the trace is limited and all but the critical codes are purged/overwritten. Some (most) aftermarket software can purge all history.
- Any access through an OBD port leaves a trace, albeit that sometimes it will only be a switched bit that indicates it was accessed. Most OE diagnostic tools can interrogate the field for date/time of access.
- Very few (if any) OE diagnostic systems have a comparator function. They can usually show something has been tweaked, possibly within a category (fuel/spark/torque-management) but not what was actually done. Some enterprising dealers have non-OE software that can do comparisons, but those dealers are usually the ones also offering upgrades.

IMO, although suggesting the code is "corrupt" every time a write is done is probably technically accurate, the definition of corrupt would need defining before any decision/action/ramification could be quantified. As far as MB is concerned, loading any non-genuine calibration would be considered corrupting an ECU.
I have not seen any evidence of corruption that I consider detrimental or in any way a negative in any C63 ECU code. There are cars that have been flashed hundreds of times (sometimes by multiple systems) and show no signs of problems.
Use an established, reputable calibration tool in the hands of a skilled tuner and enjoy the benefits - knowing that your dealership may not approve ... or don't.
It's nice to have the knowledge gathered by forums like this that enable each of us to make an informed choice.


I have no alliance/allegiance to any specific calibration tool.

glennhl

I think what makes a tune desirable to me is it just gets the engine back to what it was designed to do. This is a 500+ hp engine that has been detuned by the ECU to 451 hp for marketing reasons. Getting over 50 hp with a safe tune is amazing. And believe me, you will feel the extra 50 hp!!!

dang503

http://www.renntechmercedes.com/www/...ions#rt_vs_oem

I think it depends on what it is and how... See RennTech's excellent description of aftermarket vs oem and warranty

rentzington

Interesting read there.

While I'm not an ecu expert I do know a fair amount about technology as it's my job and I can say that yes technically any flash memory device will eventually have a finite amount of times it can be read and written too but huge advances have been made to flash memory technology compared to 10yrs ago

Anything done in memory can be traced back if someone took time and effort but my guess is the average dealer wouldn't have the tools or time to run a deep dive diagnostic on the memory

Bardman

Some comments on what you state as facts.

Whilst no doubt it is possible for an expert to dig in to an ECU and determine that changes have been made, I doubt a regular service tech would have this capability (or even bother to look).

I'm sure aggregates of data would be able to be collected, with potentially outlying data points, but it seems unlikely that months of detailed playback of your driving would be stored. This would require significant storage with seemingly limited benefit. (wikipedia states that typical storage sizes are .5 - 16 MB - this would be eaten up pretty quickly if every single data point was stored)

It depends on what you mean by corrupt. You are effectively flashing the firmware of your car. The type of storage used for this is typically Solid State Disk, similar to what is used for USB thumb drives. Basic commodity SSD storage has around 2000-3000 writes in it (assuming there is no redundancy). So if you are worried about actually "wearing out" the storage I think you can flash a few times without many concerns.


The interesting point to all this is I have seen zero posts on this board from people who have encountered issues related to any of what you have stated to be facts. I have seen posts on this board about head bolt issues, engines overheating on track days, tyres wearing out too quickly and unevenly, even cars catching on fire after being left on top of dry grass, but I have seen absolutely nothing on:

- warranty issues related to ECU tunes
- warranty issues related to the dealer looking at your driving history
- ECUs malfunctioning due to too many tunes being applied

If these are real issues, why have we heard nothing about them?

p30amg08

Anything on computers leaves traces. Always. Just matters who's looking?

TTA850

As far as the PCM getting corrupt over time, OEM computers (all of them nowadays not just the PCM) are designed to be reprogrammed through the DLC connector every time there is an update or a problem. The only reason I can see there being a limited number of times you can reprogram the PCM is if the tuning suites used are a hack job. I work with GM computers in race cars and have personally flashed (write calibration only) the same PCM over 1000 times with HP Tuners no issues and have used EFI Live on a Corvette that gets calibration flashed before every pass with 1000's of passes over the years no issues.

Jasonoff

Sorry, I just find the "residue" claim hard to believe without any tangible proof.

It's an EEPROM. A flash bootlaoder erases and replaces the read only program stored on the ECU.

As for Merc knowing or not. I'm willing to guess there's some sort of security crypto module that does in fact log it to some degree.

Roswell

I agree

I don't have the urge to tune my car at all cuz the engine is perfect for what I need it for.

Mercfan64

Closer to 10x10^7 haha. Flash as many times as you want.

Roswell

Zeph, if u are looking for a reason to convince u to tune ur car or not.. But at the same time worry about possible issue down the road (I'm in the same situation frankly).. Then don't so it, leaving it stock is worth the peace of mind in my opinion.

This is a mod no one will know on the road except u & ur right foot. (Unless u tell people u have a tuned car or race another C63).

My point is tune it for urself & ur own driving experience.. Don't worry too much about the consequences.. Just be prepare to deal with it if smth comes up. U gotta pay to play like they say.

..otherwise, enjoy ur stock car for peace of mind.

jordanaf

Meng-

That's what I'm trying to figure out, not just for Zeph, but just to understand the debate and/or this post. Is this post just about the worries of losing or having the warranty being voided by MB if they find out? Or is this post about longterm damage to the ECU and the car? I'm a little confused. Anyone wanna answer these simple questions. Thanks

ZephyrAMG

I really appreciated the insightful posts. I agree with a lot of the input. Roswell, I see your point and Jordan let me clarify a bit.

My main concern is the destruction of the ECU. I also know what Rentzington and Southways have written to be true. When I think about tuning my C63 I for one am also of the mind set to get the engine running to its full, intended potential. The fact that it's the same engine as the E and essentially the CBS, P31, etc and that its just detuned makes one want to wake it up. People have shown that with everything to examining it on a complete tear down, to quarter mile passes, to track usage that this engine is STOUT. I am loving that.

But lets just talk about damage to ECU, and whether or not a history can be extracted when push come to shove.

There are people here who have had CELs and various problems that may indeed be related to the mapping of the tune and how it messes with the parameters. There is no way in knowing unless trial tests were done (i.e. install tune and observe for damage in repeated tests) but its not realistic.

So are some of the problems, such as rough idle, O2 going bad, left bank this and right bank that, electrical problems (just to name a few) caused by the tune and we just don't know? How does the ECU hold up?

These are my concerns and I was asking your thoughts. Anyone run a tune with NO PROBLEMS WHAT-SO-EVER?
I am not sure I have read about anyone having no issues at all...

ZephyrAMG

Thanks Bardman. I agree with what you have written. Although no posts have been made directly pointing to the tune as the source of the problems, I am sure that when the issues occur, by then its too late to blame the ECU and tune. It's too difficult at that point. We haven't seen anyone say, "Hey guys, I have a rough idle and its because of my tune" because we can't trace it that far back. Some of it's also just plain denial...

Bardman

But you will almost never see a post like this unless you specifically request feedback. ie no-one is going to write a post saying "I have run my tune for 3 years and its all good!", you are much more likely to see a post along the lines of "I have a problem, anyone know how to fix it?".


Having said that, I'm not sure you can get 100% peace of mind that you will never have any problems with a tune. I think that if this is going to bug you then you should give it a miss. Its nice to know that you are in warranty and any issues will be sorted out.


The reason I am about to tune my car (and get some other work done), is exactly the reason you mentioned, to maximise the potential of an engine that is clearly capable of a lot more than comes stock. It bugs me a little that this potential is wasted in order to fulfil market segmentation goals. I also want my car to stay quicker than the latest M3/M4, which it will with what I am planning! [keen to avoid the "sounds awesome, but you just got smoked dude" situation]


I do go down that path with open eyes, however, knowing there is a remote possibility of problems, and that if they do occur I will likely have to spend money to fix them.

Southways

Mine is a 2013 P31 Coupe.
I have installed several (lost count) tunes.
The tune I have in now has been there for 6+ months. It was loaded after doing IPE headers & customised front/mid pipe.
It is an OE Tuning calibration, increase with headers was ~55rwhp, and I have not had a single issue, glitch, error code or concern.

rory breaker

Would love for sponsors and tuners who are reading this thread to chime in.

If they want to, MB can tell you have run a tune, regardless of the "invisible" claims from tuners. This is my own knowledge directly from 1 of the most knowledgeable AMG minds out there. If this isn't the case, and tuners can prove it, please by all means educate us.

Think that's the vibe of the OP.

jordanaf

Zeph/Bard-

Thanks for the clarification. That's what I thought. Speaking about tunes in general, there have been indy shops tuning cars to squeeze what they can out an engine for decades and decades now. Hell, AMG started as a tuning house messing around with Benz's. I do understand that technology has changed significantly, as well as ECU's, but the primary idea is the same. In the beginning tunes were majorly about tweaking physical components of the engine, rather than primarily mapping some codes on a computer without even touching mechanical functions. However along the way, the computer took over and many tuning companies followed suit and had technicians run code. Flash, no pun intended, to today.

The companies that are writing code and tuning OUR cars have been doing so for a number of years, speaking only of the 3 or so major companies offering tunes for us. The way by which they are re-mapping our cars has been developed over these years I have a-formed mentioned. Again speaking for the few major companies that offer the C63 "tune", have come up with their flash that has no negative effect on the engine or ECU. Meaning that they have followed the technology and advancements in a way, just as the natural progression has occurred, to be able to offer ECU changes at no peril to the ECU itself. I certainly do not know about continuing to flash and reflash, flash and reflash, without some kind of longterm damage, but the tune itself should be harmless(from the well established companies).

Now to tune or not to tune, is a whole different question that you guys seem generated by whether or not your warranty will be intact or whether it will be voided by MB. The answer to that question is one that each of us have to make on our own. Many of you guys seem to be extremely apprehensive because of the fact that you feel like you are doing something completely dishonest and sneaky, and are fearful that if MB catches wind of it you will be in serious trouble. I don't share this fear, so I have a hard time relating and even seeing this point. I'm gonna run through all the scenarios like, "They probably don't care. They're not looking for it." etc, etc.. And I know the rebuttal. "IF something happens to the engine and it needs major work and they find out that it's been tuned............", I have heard this argument for not tuning. As I said, no one can make this determination but you, the one considering a tune. I don't know where all the MB fearing comes from. I am a bit curious.

All 3 of the MB dealerships around me, have all been perfectly fine with the tunes on my cars. I haven't had major engine issues and been denied the work be done under warranty because of the tune, but up until now they have all been fine it. They all knew my cars had them, going back to the original topic of this post, because they saw the tune plain as day. They didn't have to go looking or hook the car up to the diagnostic computer for hours/days. They hooked up and saw it right away. Now had I reflashed my car before I took it in, that might be another matter. But when you take your car in, they don't go "looking" for a tune. And I bet if I reflashed it, they probably wouldn't know. But then we go back to, is flash/reflash numerous times okay?

The tunes out today won'y hurt your engine, requiring it to be brought in with CEL or another engine crisis. Then being found out by MB that you had a tune requiring some kind of engine or ECU fix. That whole ugly loop that most of you are paralyzed with. You can be safe to say that having an ECU flash form the top 3 or 4 companies, you guys know who they are, with have no detrimental effects on your engine.

I neither advocate for, or protest against tuning your car. It is your car and ultimately your decision to do what you feel comfortable with. It's your choice, your money, and mainly your piece of mind.

Okay, I totally advocate for a tune. It's f*$@ing awesome!!!


Southways, that's great to hear that!! Enjoy your decently modded car. But in all fairness, that really isn't all that long, 6 months, to be of immense comfort. Although it is very reassuring and satisfying that you have had all that work done and been tuned for 6+months without a single error or code. It should stay the same and you'll keep racking up months and then hopefully years on the same path. No errors, no codes!! You seem to have a nice set-up and a right-and-tight car. Congrats!!

Anyone else wanna chime in?

I had a Eurocharged tune V3 on one of my C63's that survived almost 2 years without a code, error, or glitch. The car didn't make it due to physical damage, but the tune, ECU, and engine were just fine. I can only hope that Southway's car continues to rack up years and that my 507 will follow suit.

Jasonoff

Food for thought to put your mind at ease for the "residue" / damage concern. This is ignoring anything about the actual tune. Just how the tune is stored on the ECU.

http://www.mosaic-industries.com/emb...-wear-leveling

Coles notes:
Yes, data can be corrupted while writing, but, you can re-write it over and over and over and over....

ZephyrAMG

Thanks for your positive post rory. I appreciate your comments. I guess that is what I would also like but I can understand that it wouldn't be in the best interest for a tuning company to throw themselves in the lions den.

ZephyrAMG

Great information and great post! Thanks Jordan....

604 C63

Well, we knew we were going to get the "tune it, don't tune it" opinions as well as the "my car got messed up/my car is fine" side of things.
I think what you really seem to care about here Zephyr is about ECU longevity and how that is affected by tunes, much more so than detectability etc. Am I correct?

I doubt there has ever been much study done on this, and I think that even if there was the findings would be sponsored by the auto manufacturers or the tune re-sale industry and so the results would be suspect ala tobacco company findings. But I personally think:

- any time you write/re-write digital data there are little 1's and 0's left somehow, in some way and the only way around that is a complete format and reformat. Either way, you are writing and re-writing data and every time you do so you increase the odds that this time you omit a 1 when writing or leave behind a 0 when overwriting.

- I think that any media has a wear and tear factor (them sticky 1s and 0s) and the more you write and re-write to your ECU the more likely you are to have an issue with it. More usage more failure. Thats why I dont think anyone should be flashing back and forth all the time, just put it in and leave it, unless you need to take it out. Forget valet mode and all that crap.

- IF the manufacturers were willing to put the time and energy into tracking that down and IF they thought it was cost effective they could do so. Scientists and forensics and geeks have solved a lot bigger mysteries than figuring out if an ECU has been flashed. It would appear they don't feel it's worth it. I also think they could do a much better job of locking out tunes to begin with, but again, they don't. I'm sure they have done the math and analyzed the optics.

- I think you get what you pay for, and quality companies have products with fewer issues than the $99 specials.

- I think that engine management is such these days that the parameters under which an engine operates without CELs and limp modes are pretty clearly defined, and if you stay within those parameters and don't try to wring every last hp out of your motor you will be better off.

It don't matter what it is - if you use it there is wear and tear and degradation. A sweater, an ECU, the compact discs that were originally sold to us as indestructible. HOWEVER, lets not forget that the ECU was designed so that it could be flashed by the dealers and be updated etc. This isn't something outside it's intending usage - just don't over use it.

Get a quality tune that doesn't get greedy and run your engine ragged in order for the tune co to get bragging rights, write as little as possible (making sure your battery is fully charged) and don't drive your car like an idiot. If you do those things I am highly dubious that you will have problems with your ECU or anything else for that matter.

Having said all of that, it is a matter of opinion and everyone has their own comfort and risk tolerance level. If you sweat it, then forget it. It's just not worrying if a rough idle on startup one morning is a result of a tune. Paranoia will destroy ya. Do whatever makes your car enjoyable for you.

604 C63

My god. What is happening to me in my old age? That response was almost rational and moderate. I disappoint myself.

4ramin

you nailed it perfectly

LIKE_A_BOSS

i have 0 warranty so who gives a sh#t about the dealer im gonna tune this beast anyway