The C63 holds up well AND holds its own...
#26
The "or so you think" is directly related to my point.
Guys, tenths of seconds could come down to your seat setting from one car to the next.
To me, 6 seconds sounds like a long time on a track.
I used to race motocross. When I would leave the track, it was never about, who's bike was faster, it was about who was the better rider. All of our bikes were fairly comparable in performance, but the rider, errors, and lines chosen are what make a winner or a loser.
On a car track, don't drivers take the measurable performance differences out of the equation to some degree?
Guys, tenths of seconds could come down to your seat setting from one car to the next.
To me, 6 seconds sounds like a long time on a track.
I used to race motocross. When I would leave the track, it was never about, who's bike was faster, it was about who was the better rider. All of our bikes were fairly comparable in performance, but the rider, errors, and lines chosen are what make a winner or a loser.
On a car track, don't drivers take the measurable performance differences out of the equation to some degree?
Many egos will be crushed by the guy (that can drive) in an underpowered car. True story, during a track day, a friend who drives a Sub Legacy GT wagon on winter tires played with and then passed a guy in a Cayman. After the session, guy in the Cayman came over to chat and see what was "done" to the Sub. When he noticed the winter tires he never came back. Ego=crushed.
You can brochure race all day. Track days are not racing. There's always a faster car. Someone somewhere would be better than you in your own car. Drive a car that makes you smile. After 15 years racing/tracking/instructing that's what I learned so far.
#27
First: these aren't race qual times where tenths or even sec matter. The cars would never race in the same class.
This a relative performnce envelope for cars marketed in the same class.
Second: for the m and a pp on the Ring the delta is 1.5 %...nothing
Variations of 2-3% in tests like this are statistically irrelavent and thus moot.
In straight line 0-150 a 2008 amg is faster than a manual m4. Overall considereing all variations equal with 1/2 sec or so. In the 1/4 overall the m might have 1/10 and 1 hmph edge. Cherry picking the best times for each they are equal.
Third: it runs with the 997 turbo and M3 of the SAME generation. As I pointed out for 1/2 as much you can get a c63 that will run consistently with a stock m4.
The m4 according to dynos has 10% more power, 15% more torque, weighs 10% less, has wider tires, dct, etc and is a 7 year newer design. Yet no appreciable performance difference when gauged as a STREET performance car, which is what they actually are.
Lastly: imo the c63 punches above it's weight class and the m4 below it. A stock 2008 amg is within 1 sec (1/2%) of a new M5 for 1/3 the $$$. When including simple mods (tune, row box, tires, suspension) it would be faster in this VIR test. Think about it.
I do not consider the m4 a great car, too soon to toss that word around lightly. But the c63 is much closer to greatness, but imo not great yet, but it will fade into the haze of history less than the e9x or f8x m's. A great car to me is an e30 m3, a b7 rs4, 930 turbo, butnot the m4 or the c63... Yet.
Last edited by Ingenieur; 10-17-2014 at 09:43 AM.
#28
That is 6% vs 3%
Double destroyed? Lol
And as times decrease harder to reduce them
So relative to the 3% the 6% is more like a 10% improvement since it is harder to obtain
And the camaro cost less lol
#30
I bet if you ran the 2008 c63 on the 2015 m4 tires the difference would almost disappear
245/275 vs 235/255 on a 400 lb lighter car
Plus 7 year newer design technology
The 507 on the m4 tires may be faster
What size tires does the BS run?
245/275 vs 235/255 on a 400 lb lighter car
Plus 7 year newer design technology
The 507 on the m4 tires may be faster
What size tires does the BS run?
Last edited by Ingenieur; 10-17-2014 at 10:08 AM.
#31
The suspension on the Z28 was custom developed by the Corvette racing team. It's not offered on any other product they develop (it's not the mag ride like Corvette/Ferrari use).
#32
Yeah. The Z28 is 100% world class. It's beating the GTR on some lap comparisons. It's also $75-80K, comes with carbon ceramic brakes, cloth seats, damn near slicks all the way around, no options and literally one speaker for the door chime.
The suspension on the Z28 was custom developed by the Corvette racing team. It's not offered on any other product they develop (it's not the mag ride like Corvette/Ferrari use).
The suspension on the Z28 was custom developed by the Corvette racing team. It's not offered on any other product they develop (it's not the mag ride like Corvette/Ferrari use).
http://www.historictransam.com/projects/JohnMiller.html
Last edited by Ingenieur; 10-17-2014 at 11:11 AM.
#33
Yeah. The Z28 is 100% world class. It's beating the GTR on some lap comparisons. It's also $75-80K, comes with carbon ceramic brakes, cloth seats, damn near slicks all the way around, no options and literally one speaker for the door chime.
The suspension on the Z28 was custom developed by the Corvette racing team. It's not offered on any other product they develop (it's not the mag ride like Corvette/Ferrari use).
The suspension on the Z28 was custom developed by the Corvette racing team. It's not offered on any other product they develop (it's not the mag ride like Corvette/Ferrari use).
wow i had no idea, when they first came out with these new camaro's they really didnt impress me at all compared to the mustang gt and gt500 but OMG these new z28s and ZL1's .....man
#34
I *have* read that VIR was repaved a year or so ago and is quite a bit faster now than it used to be. If so, then the C63 and M4 might be a little closer.
If that's the case, I'd like to see the old Viper ACR on the new track (ran 2:48 on the old pavement).
If that's the case, I'd like to see the old Viper ACR on the new track (ran 2:48 on the old pavement).
#35
Extremely limited run. I think they sold out immediately, and I'm not entirely sure they're making any more past this model year.
The ZL1 is meh. Give me a Hellcat.
#38
Yeah, just keep in mind the car is basically gutted with the 7.0L out of the old Z06. No creature comforts left. I wasn't joking, I think there is LITERALLY only one speaker in the whole car.
Extremely limited run. I think they sold out immediately, and I'm not entirely sure they're making any more past this model year.
The ZL1 is meh. Give me a Hellcat.
Extremely limited run. I think they sold out immediately, and I'm not entirely sure they're making any more past this model year.
The ZL1 is meh. Give me a Hellcat.
anyone who has driven one says it can never be a DD...pure race car...only for the hardcode fans with $$ to spare!
#39
Yeah, just keep in mind the car is basically gutted with the 7.0L out of the old Z06. No creature comforts left. I wasn't joking, I think there is LITERALLY only one speaker in the whole car.
Extremely limited run. I think they sold out immediately, and I'm not entirely sure they're making any more past this model year.
The ZL1 is meh. Give me a Hellcat.
Extremely limited run. I think they sold out immediately, and I'm not entirely sure they're making any more past this model year.
The ZL1 is meh. Give me a Hellcat.
But if you want a pure track car that thing looks tough to beat
#40
SOME OVER $90K and one over $100K!!!!
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...79661419&Log=0
#41
Definitely!
Many egos will be crushed by the guy (that can drive) in an underpowered car. True story, during a track day, a friend who drives a Sub Legacy GT wagon on winter tires played with and then passed a guy in a Cayman. After the session, guy in the Cayman came over to chat and see what was "done" to the Sub. When he noticed the winter tires he never came back. Ego=crushed.
You can brochure race all day. Track days are not racing. There's always a faster car. Someone somewhere would be better than you in your own car. Drive a car that makes you smile. After 15 years racing/tracking/instructing that's what I learned so far.
Many egos will be crushed by the guy (that can drive) in an underpowered car. True story, during a track day, a friend who drives a Sub Legacy GT wagon on winter tires played with and then passed a guy in a Cayman. After the session, guy in the Cayman came over to chat and see what was "done" to the Sub. When he noticed the winter tires he never came back. Ego=crushed.
You can brochure race all day. Track days are not racing. There's always a faster car. Someone somewhere would be better than you in your own car. Drive a car that makes you smile. After 15 years racing/tracking/instructing that's what I learned so far.
Fast forward a few years and this same guy bought a 1985 GMC Cabelerro (El Camino). He took it to a race shop and put in a new engine and all new suspension along with very sticky tires. It actually was a pretty decent car. He was out at PIR running a track day. They were sharing the track with Ganassi's Indycar team. The Indycar team noticed this El Camino closing in on a very nice Turbo 911. So they took their driver board and started showing him the gap to the 911. Each lap he was taking 3 seconds off the 911. When he finally got to the back of the 911, the guy ducked into the pits to avoid the embarrassment. All the Ganassi team was jumping up and down cheering.
This guy finally sold all his cars as he did not like the super competitive person he'd become. Personally I loved watching him beat the faster cars.
#42
Between that and the tires the cars are essentially even
#43
Stock vs. Stock...
If road racing, I'll take the M4.
If drag racing, I'll take the C63.
The laps times and gaps presented above my not sound like much, but believe me, it is. For example, that .06sec gap or whatever thereof can be noticeably huge once the end of session checker flag is waved after a given 1hr or even a 45min session.
Stock for stock as far as road racing, the C63 is capable entity, but not ideal. Now, if you were to run the C BS,then that would be a different story.
After owning a few M and AMG cars and participating/competing in various racing events (road and drag), I’ve learned that M cars for the most part are better suited for road racing and AMG cars are better for drag racing. Neither platform fits every little driving need, but overall, the M cars generally give better road feedback and thus greater confidence. AMG cars are generally better cruisers. Both are unique and do what they are designed to do really well. I like them both for what they are.
If road racing, I'll take the M4.
If drag racing, I'll take the C63.
The laps times and gaps presented above my not sound like much, but believe me, it is. For example, that .06sec gap or whatever thereof can be noticeably huge once the end of session checker flag is waved after a given 1hr or even a 45min session.
Stock for stock as far as road racing, the C63 is capable entity, but not ideal. Now, if you were to run the C BS,then that would be a different story.
After owning a few M and AMG cars and participating/competing in various racing events (road and drag), I’ve learned that M cars for the most part are better suited for road racing and AMG cars are better for drag racing. Neither platform fits every little driving need, but overall, the M cars generally give better road feedback and thus greater confidence. AMG cars are generally better cruisers. Both are unique and do what they are designed to do really well. I like them both for what they are.