Ingenieur

Car & Driver lightening lap selected times

2008 C63 3:06.5
2008 M3 3:05.6
2007 Porsche 997 turbo 3:05.8
2013 M5 3:05.2
2014 M4 3:00.7

A 5 year older car is within 1.5% of the new M5, a bit over 1 sec in a 3 minute lap
About 3% of the new M4
The new M4 weighs >400 lbs (10%) less and supposedly has 11% more HP and almost 15% more torque...plus dct, more tire, etc

zibby43

Yeah the new M4 worked the '08 C63.

Bazman

A 507 would shave a fair bit off that time.

abcut973

Not too bad.
How about the W205 AMG C63? No one has yet put some lap times on the new C?
That is the comparison I'm waiting for

Ingenieur

For a car with a 25% torque/mass advantage, much wider/better tires, dct, ceramic brakes, costing almost 25% more with 6 year newer technology 'working' it by 3% is pathetic

I would say the m epically failed
The e63 was faster than the m and it weighs over 800 lbs more and was a station wagon

A base vette is 7 sec faster than the m and costs less
A camaro was 10 sec faster
Heck the sl63 was even faster

The W205 c63 will lead the m4 around on a leash, like it's biotch

Ingenieur

Buy a low mileage 2008 c63
Tune/row intake
Tires PSS 245/275
Suspension
Total 36k
Less than 1/2 the m and less depreciation down the road
And it would be faster than the m on VIR
The m is swoopy and panders to the boi razer crowd but can't back it up

Ingenieur

And that is the one the boys who squandered $$$ on the m are dreading

Ingenieur

What is impressive is it within 1 sec (1/2%) of the same generation m3 and 997 TT
The m was supposedly a handling benchmark and the turbo an icon
A car that weighed 400 lbs more with less tire than each
And it pummeled the e9x m3 in a straight line

It all came together in the AMG package
Amazing engineering

zibby43

I guess we have different opinions then.

For that short of a track, 6 seconds is an eternity. Do you do a lot of HPDEs? I'm only asking because if I bettered my personal best lap time by 6 seconds, I would be ecstatic.

And no offense but the percentages don't really matter (e.g., the M3/M4 was only 3% faster).

On a short track like that, tenths of seconds are significant. Seconds might as well be minutes. That's a bit of hyperbole, but not really.

No shame for the W204 though, it's about to be replaced by a new platform.

Ingenieur

Not opinion, but fact
The m is under-perfroming, under-whelming and over-hyped
It's the justin bieber of the car world lol all show no go
All hat no cattle lol

6 sec is 6 sec
3%
Eternity can't be measured

So if the camaro is 10 sec faster than the m is that 1.67 eternities?

The m has much more power and torque per pound
25% more ref torque
Dct, wider tires, ceramic brakes, better wt dist, lower CoG, etc
3% faster
Lol

Btw tenths don't matter
It's a street car
A 4 door vs 2
I bet the 2008 c63 would be only 3 sec slower than the new m3
Maybe less

zibby43

Press drives with the W205 C63 won't be happening for quite some time now, unfortunately.

I love my W204 but the new F80 M3 is a brilliant car. It doesn't sound as good as the W204 C63 (a given) but it does sound much better in person. With the M Performance exhaust, it actually sounds very aggressive. Lots of overrun pops, crackles, and burbles.

I'm not a fanboy of either brand but I've driven the F8X platform several times now and I'm not ashamed in the least bit to say it's a great car.

Gobs of torque, great steering feel, outstanding brakes, hooks up great, and feels quite a bit lighter than the W204.

zibby43

We've chatted quite a bit in the past and all of our prior conversations have been amicable.

That said, with all due respect, you have a tendency to assert your opinion as fact and I'm not going anywhere near that discussion.

Ask Tobias Moers (AMG Product Chief) if 6 seconds on that track is significant and even he will tell you yes.

So will just about everyone else. There is nothing you can say to convince me otherwise and I'm fine with that. Have a good weekend.

Ingenieur

Not my opinion
But THE numbers
25% torque/wt advantage
3%

Weather could account for that variance

The fact is the m has a huge physical advantage that does not translate into a measurable advantage...especially when the 6 years are factored in

I'm not trying to insult or agitate you, just saying the m is not as good as it should be. A camaro with less power/torque (according to dynos posted here) and weighs 300 lbs more is 10 sec faster with a manual transmission.

I don't consider this hostile or an arguement, so please don't take it the wrong way.

SaphGreyC63

Agreed. I also agree with zibby that 6 seconds isnt 6 seconds.

A 6 second difference on a track that takes 8 mins to lap is much easier to make up in time, than 6 seconds on a 3 mins to lap track.

I've driver the new M3 on an autocross course, and quite frankly, its a great car, but just not for me. To each his own, and in my 2.5 years of ownership I've only "raced" (using that term very loosely here) with M3s or anything else on the street maybe 3 times.

At the end of the day, all that matters is if you're happy with you car. Thats it.

zibby43

I didn't take it that way at all so absolutely no worries there.

I just recognized that we were very far apart because of the way we were analyzing the numbers, which is fine. I just don't think we'll find a middle ground on this one.

To me, all that matters is the lap times (and difference) between the two cars.

For example, the LCI W204 C63 (8:01) is 4 seconds faster around the Nurburgring (Nordschleife) than the E9X M3 (8:05).

4 seconds is substantial at the 'ring, and one lap there is a whopping 12.9 miles.

On a much, much shorter track, a 6-second gap is extremely impressive to me. The M4's greatest advantages are its tires, its weight, its transmission (the M-DCT is second only to Porsche's PDK, in my humble opinion) and its chassis. According to published numbers, the F8X is down on power to the W204.

I'm all MB at the moment (3 MB cars in the stable, including my '13 C63).

However, as I said above, I have driven the F8X several times now and I was extremely impressed by it. The DCT is fantastic, the brake pedal feel is crisp and easy to modulate (Note: I've only driven cars with the standard brakes (4-piston front/2-piston rear fixed Brembo setup)), the torque delivery is impressive, the steering feel is precise (turn-in is a joy), and the chassis feels glued to the road.

I would have no problems with owning an F80 M3.

But before I even seriously consider an F80, I will first drive the W205 C63 because it looks to be (on paper anyway) even stronger than the F80. The W205 will still be a bit heavier, will have less tire, and will likely have a slightly inferior transmission but it will have a stronger motor, potentially better brakes, and an improved chassis.

Also, on a side note, I wouldn't be surprised if the F80 M3 (sedan) was a bit quicker than the F82 M4 (coupe) (generally, that is).

The E90 M3 sedan was faster than the E92 M3 coupe because the sedan had greater structural rigidity. So as a cautionary note, don't always equate two more doors with less performance.

Cheers.

zibby43

Absolutely. That was exactly my point. On the track, tenths of seconds usually separate competitors so entire seconds are even more impressive.

The shorter the track, the more impressive entire seconds become. On a track like the 'ring, which is 12.9 miles long, seconds are crucial in evaluating competing cars (and for performance cars, laps there take between 7-9 minutes to complete). On a shorter track, a difference as large as 6 seconds is eye-popping.

I also completely agree that all that matters at the end of the day is personal taste and personal satisfaction. Drive what you drive because you like it. When it comes to cars like the C63, M3, RS4/5, CTS-V, RC-F (okay, maybe not the RC-F haha), etc., you really can't go wrong. Each car will have its own unique strengths and weaknesses.

Edit: Hey SaphGreyC63, did you get your issue sorted out? Did removing the tune make any difference or were you able to rule out that variable?

Bardman

Strange fixation. The lady doth protest too much?

-Marlin-

The new Camaro Z28 is crushing the tracks and winning all kinds of awards. I'm not a Camaro guy, but that's really impressive. I didn't think GM had it in them. Amazing car for an affordable price.

Autosport7

I don't want to speak for all, but I can tell you this much, I could care less about track times set by OTHER PEOPLE, especially professional drivers. You will never, in your lifetime, push either of these cars to their limits and perfect their capabilities. So why are any of you worried about the times set by others? Track times are set by humans, humans that will never run a "perfect" lap. Head out on another day and the W204 may run only 3 seconds behind, or better...


You could sit my *** down in a P1 and place a 10 year track experienced vet in a vehicle with half the performance capabilities and that vet is still going to show you what's up.


The car getting my vote, will be the car that best suits my fancy as a daily driver and allows me to get spirited from time to time. Now if you were buying the car strictly for track purposes, maybe then you have a case, otherwise, Ill see ya on the streets abiding by "most" rules and regulations set forth by your local law enforcement officials.


There may be a few select enthusiasts on this board that can consecutively run consistent lap times, most of us can not. These times for the majority of us are for nothing more than magazine article bragging rights.

g-f

I raced F2000 cars. I've been instructing for BMWCCA for many years. I've even set a track record lap time once in my F2000.

That being said, the C63 is probably the most fun I've had in any car this side of my old Caterham Hayabusa. Lap times are fun for a while. The only way to measure yourself against others, or so you think, because no two cars are alike.

What you're left with at the end of the day is how your car makes you feel. The C63 makes me feel damn good. Lap times are not important to me anymore. If they were, the C63 would not be my first choice.

jarjoug

Did they ever test the LCI C63? I know the C63 BS recorded 2:58

Autosport7

The "or so you think" is directly related to my point.
Guys, tenths of seconds could come down to your seat setting from one car to the next.
To me, 6 seconds sounds like a long time on a track.
I used to race motocross. When I would leave the track, it was never about, who's bike was faster, it was about who was the better rider. All of our bikes were fairly comparable in performance, but the rider, errors, and lines chosen are what make a winner or a loser.
On a car track, don't drivers take the measurable performance differences out of the equation to some degree?

Illegal Machine

6 seconds = destroyed.

That's about the same gap between the C63 and a Hyundai Genesis Coupe (3:13.9).

rickclass

C&D 2013 lap results....very interesting how quick the C BS is...

rentzington

i'm more impressed by those camaro numbers, my goodness when did that get so fast.