Why basically the same transmission?
12-28-2014, 04:30 PM
#26
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W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Not true. More gears also means more performance if the gearbox is fast enough since you'll spend more time in the ideal powerband.
Mb is far behind with their MCT, and whoever thinks the contrary should seriously test drive a DCT from BMW. Or a pdk from Porsche. Or a dsg from Audi...
Mb is far behind with their MCT, and whoever thinks the contrary should seriously test drive a DCT from BMW. Or a pdk from Porsche. Or a dsg from Audi...
My Porsche 928 GT has a 5.0L naturally aspirated motor and a 5-speed manual (it is a GT so the ratios are different from a regular 928 but that's besides the point). Even with the "peaky", narrower GT powerband, on a track like Mosport I;ve discovered that the fastest way around is to use only 3rd and 4th gear. I lose more time in the two extra shifts by dropping down to 2nd for the slowest corner on the track and back up to 3rd (that's with years of practice, heel and toe and with a short-throw, dog-leg tranny where 2 to 3 is a straight pull down), plus the fact that you're in 3rd instead of 2nd coming out means that you're not going to overpower the rears because you're at 80% of max torque instead of 100%. So - with the right ratios and a 5L motor, the fastest time around a track where the minimum speed is 60 or so km/h in corner 5b to the ~230 km/h at the top of the Andretti straight before corner 8 is using two gears, and the entire time you're still getting 80% or more of maximum available torque.
The story is indeed very different with smaller dispalcement engines where you don't have the wide powerband, but my point is that on these cars (including the new 4.0 TT or the current 5.5 TT powerinfg the rest of the 63 series) the number of gears has nothing to do with performance.
I have driven various cars with the DCT, PDK and DSG on and off the track. Yes, BMW's DCT by itself is faster shifting and more responsive from the Benz MCT (by a hair), but the C63 coupe is still faster around Mostport than a E92 M3, and I prefer it as a daily driver over the M3 coupe by quite a margin. The Porsche Cayman and 997 are in a different league, but they were designed to be sports car with a small-ish motor, not a luxury vehicle, and their PDK still has 7 gears. Audi's DSG is inferior in execution to the MCT, not to mention the whole car as a package.
There are two other things to consider here. First, as I mentioned earliser, Merc does have a proper DCT in the SLS and now the new GT. For a fair comparison, you'd need to compare the DCT in the SLS or GT to the Porsche PDK. Second - and this is the real kicker - the MCT shifts so much better in S+ than a human ever could in M, that it reallly makes the manual mode (and thus paddle pull delay) meaningless for any practical applications. Why the hell would you want to look at RPM gauges and pull paddles (or heaven forbid operate a third pedal and row through a manual gearbox) when the computer in the MCT does it so much better than any of us on this board ever could? Unless your last name is Hamilton, Rosberg or Vettel, the fastest way around ANY track in a C63 is with the transmission in S or S+. The same goes for the DCT in the M3 or the PDK in the 911/Cayman.
12-28-2014, 07:09 PM
#27
The powerband on a 6.2L naturaly aspirated motor is so wide that you're getting 90%+ of maximum available torque easily over a 3-4K RPM range so you don't need to shift nearly as much to be in the powerband as you would on a car with a smaller-displacement motor where serious torque starts at, say, 5500 RPM and ends at 6200.
My Porsche 928 GT has a 5.0L naturally aspirated motor and a 5-speed manual (it is a GT so the ratios are different from a regular 928 but that's besides the point). Even with the "peaky", narrower GT powerband, on a track like Mosport I;ve discovered that the fastest way around is to use only 3rd and 4th gear. I lose more time in the two extra shifts by dropping down to 2nd for the slowest corner on the track and back up to 3rd (that's with years of practice, heel and toe and with a short-throw, dog-leg tranny where 2 to 3 is a straight pull down), plus the fact that you're in 3rd instead of 2nd coming out means that you're not going to overpower the rears because you're at 80% of max torque instead of 100%. So - with the right ratios and a 5L motor, the fastest time around a track where the minimum speed is 60 or so km/h in corner 5b to the ~230 km/h at the top of the Andretti straight before corner 8 is using two gears, and the entire time you're still getting 80% or more of maximum available torque.
The story is indeed very different with smaller dispalcement engines where you don't have the wide powerband, but my point is that on these cars (including the new 4.0 TT or the current 5.5 TT powerinfg the rest of the 63 series) the number of gears has nothing to do with performance.
I have driven various cars with the DCT, PDK and DSG on and off the track. Yes, BMW's DCT by itself is faster shifting and more responsive from the Benz MCT (by a hair), but the C63 coupe is still faster around Mostport than a E92 M3, and I prefer it as a daily driver over the M3 coupe by quite a margin. The Porsche Cayman and 997 are in a different league, but they were designed to be sports car with a small-ish motor, not a luxury vehicle, and their PDK still has 7 gears. Audi's DSG is inferior in execution to the MCT, not to mention the whole car as a package.
There are two other things to consider here. First, as I mentioned earliser, Merc does have a proper DCT in the SLS and now the new GT. For a fair comparison, you'd need to compare the DCT in the SLS or GT to the Porsche PDK. Second - and this is the real kicker - the MCT shifts so much better in S+ than a human ever could in M, that it reallly makes the manual mode (and thus paddle pull delay) meaningless for any practical applications. Why the hell would you want to look at RPM gauges and pull paddles (or heaven forbid operate a third pedal and row through a manual gearbox) when the computer in the MCT does it so much better than any of us on this board ever could? Unless your last name is Hamilton, Rosberg or Vettel, the fastest way around ANY track in a C63 is with the transmission in S or S+. The same goes for the DCT in the M3 or the PDK in the 911/Cayman.
My Porsche 928 GT has a 5.0L naturally aspirated motor and a 5-speed manual (it is a GT so the ratios are different from a regular 928 but that's besides the point). Even with the "peaky", narrower GT powerband, on a track like Mosport I;ve discovered that the fastest way around is to use only 3rd and 4th gear. I lose more time in the two extra shifts by dropping down to 2nd for the slowest corner on the track and back up to 3rd (that's with years of practice, heel and toe and with a short-throw, dog-leg tranny where 2 to 3 is a straight pull down), plus the fact that you're in 3rd instead of 2nd coming out means that you're not going to overpower the rears because you're at 80% of max torque instead of 100%. So - with the right ratios and a 5L motor, the fastest time around a track where the minimum speed is 60 or so km/h in corner 5b to the ~230 km/h at the top of the Andretti straight before corner 8 is using two gears, and the entire time you're still getting 80% or more of maximum available torque.
The story is indeed very different with smaller dispalcement engines where you don't have the wide powerband, but my point is that on these cars (including the new 4.0 TT or the current 5.5 TT powerinfg the rest of the 63 series) the number of gears has nothing to do with performance.
I have driven various cars with the DCT, PDK and DSG on and off the track. Yes, BMW's DCT by itself is faster shifting and more responsive from the Benz MCT (by a hair), but the C63 coupe is still faster around Mostport than a E92 M3, and I prefer it as a daily driver over the M3 coupe by quite a margin. The Porsche Cayman and 997 are in a different league, but they were designed to be sports car with a small-ish motor, not a luxury vehicle, and their PDK still has 7 gears. Audi's DSG is inferior in execution to the MCT, not to mention the whole car as a package.
There are two other things to consider here. First, as I mentioned earliser, Merc does have a proper DCT in the SLS and now the new GT. For a fair comparison, you'd need to compare the DCT in the SLS or GT to the Porsche PDK. Second - and this is the real kicker - the MCT shifts so much better in S+ than a human ever could in M, that it reallly makes the manual mode (and thus paddle pull delay) meaningless for any practical applications. Why the hell would you want to look at RPM gauges and pull paddles (or heaven forbid operate a third pedal and row through a manual gearbox) when the computer in the MCT does it so much better than any of us on this board ever could? Unless your last name is Hamilton, Rosberg or Vettel, the fastest way around ANY track in a C63 is with the transmission in S or S+. The same goes for the DCT in the M3 or the PDK in the 911/Cayman.
For most car enthusiasts, a manual transmission with a clutch pedal is more enjoyable driving experience than paddles, even if its slower.
12-28-2014, 08:55 PM
#28
MBWorld Fanatic!
Amen to that. I love matching my own revs. I actually find my Lexus more satisfying to drive than the C63. The C63 just makes me giggle.
12-28-2014, 09:07 PM
#29
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2014 E63S; AMS 100 octane ecu tune; edok tcu tune; BB intakes; dyno tuned
I drove the dct in the Acura tlx loaner and it has a torque converter but shifts harshly nonetheless
Four banger tlx
Four banger tlx
12-29-2014, 11:42 PM
#30
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12-30-2014, 10:55 PM
#31
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Just thought id share that the 2015 cls is already out and has a 9 speed in it. Why would benz spend money on developing a new gearbox or other major component for the last few production years of a car? That makes no sense. Hmmmm yea i want to pay 100k$ for that new different body with the same engine and transmission as the last. lol.
You also fail to see that the mct transmission is rated at 1000nm instead of 700nm. So to say it's slightly modified is sort of a joke. Personally i hate the mct and think its annoying. Why? because i drive the car everyday in traffic and in parking lots. I bought a torque converter c63 because of that. Sure the mct is more aim'd at the track but not really that amazing compared to a dct. Wait till that dct has 100k miles on it and tell me it still shifts good. If you bought a c63 solely to use on the road course thats kind of stupid. It has too much torque, weighs 4000lbs. m3 will always be faster on the track stock for stock, has no torque/traction issues weighs less and handles better, rides alot rougher too. Amg is about a fine balance and compromise of luxury and performance. The black series being the exception to that rule as it was actually intended for regular track use. Hell if you buy a black series and never go to the track you're just a stupid. Dont compare a twin turbo 3.8l gtr to a 6.2L n/a motor. thats like comparing a tesla to an electric smart car and complaining about range anxiety. a smaller displacement engine can always get better fuel efficiency it's simple physics.
Lets talk about gtr gear box failures when using launch control with traction control turned off. Strange i dont hear about any of those failures with amgs. audi.... no one even races those over priced vw terds. Porsche... people buy them with the expectations of a race car and dont complain about carpet on the door panels, squeaks and rattles because they are weekend only cars not daily drivers.
You also fail to see that the mct transmission is rated at 1000nm instead of 700nm. So to say it's slightly modified is sort of a joke. Personally i hate the mct and think its annoying. Why? because i drive the car everyday in traffic and in parking lots. I bought a torque converter c63 because of that. Sure the mct is more aim'd at the track but not really that amazing compared to a dct. Wait till that dct has 100k miles on it and tell me it still shifts good. If you bought a c63 solely to use on the road course thats kind of stupid. It has too much torque, weighs 4000lbs. m3 will always be faster on the track stock for stock, has no torque/traction issues weighs less and handles better, rides alot rougher too. Amg is about a fine balance and compromise of luxury and performance. The black series being the exception to that rule as it was actually intended for regular track use. Hell if you buy a black series and never go to the track you're just a stupid. Dont compare a twin turbo 3.8l gtr to a 6.2L n/a motor. thats like comparing a tesla to an electric smart car and complaining about range anxiety. a smaller displacement engine can always get better fuel efficiency it's simple physics.
Lets talk about gtr gear box failures when using launch control with traction control turned off. Strange i dont hear about any of those failures with amgs. audi.... no one even races those over priced vw terds. Porsche... people buy them with the expectations of a race car and dont complain about carpet on the door panels, squeaks and rattles because they are weekend only cars not daily drivers.
01-02-2015, 12:11 AM
#35
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[QUOTE=johnny--2k;6280404]Roadtalon, I would love a ride in yours sometime with the Weistec.... I am also in DFW.[/QUOTE
No problem. We should setup some sort of local dfw amg club or something and have a big get together.
No problem. We should setup some sort of local dfw amg club or something and have a big get together.
01-02-2015, 11:09 AM
#36
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2013 C63 coupe P31
The powerband on a 6.2L naturaly aspirated motor is so wide that you're getting 90%+ of maximum available torque easily over a 3-4K RPM range so you don't need to shift nearly as much to be in the powerband as you would on a car with a smaller-displacement motor where serious torque starts at, say, 5500 RPM and ends at 6200.
My Porsche 928 GT has a 5.0L naturally aspirated motor and a 5-speed manual (it is a GT so the ratios are different from a regular 928 but that's besides the point). Even with the "peaky", narrower GT powerband, on a track like Mosport I;ve discovered that the fastest way around is to use only 3rd and 4th gear. I lose more time in the two extra shifts by dropping down to 2nd for the slowest corner on the track and back up to 3rd (that's with years of practice, heel and toe and with a short-throw, dog-leg tranny where 2 to 3 is a straight pull down), plus the fact that you're in 3rd instead of 2nd coming out means that you're not going to overpower the rears because you're at 80% of max torque instead of 100%. So - with the right ratios and a 5L motor, the fastest time around a track where the minimum speed is 60 or so km/h in corner 5b to the ~230 km/h at the top of the Andretti straight before corner 8 is using two gears, and the entire time you're still getting 80% or more of maximum available torque.
The story is indeed very different with smaller dispalcement engines where you don't have the wide powerband, but my point is that on these cars (including the new 4.0 TT or the current 5.5 TT powerinfg the rest of the 63 series) the number of gears has nothing to do with performance.
I have driven various cars with the DCT, PDK and DSG on and off the track. Yes, BMW's DCT by itself is faster shifting and more responsive from the Benz MCT (by a hair), but the C63 coupe is still faster around Mostport than a E92 M3, and I prefer it as a daily driver over the M3 coupe by quite a margin. The Porsche Cayman and 997 are in a different league, but they were designed to be sports car with a small-ish motor, not a luxury vehicle, and their PDK still has 7 gears. Audi's DSG is inferior in execution to the MCT, not to mention the whole car as a package.
There are two other things to consider here. First, as I mentioned earliser, Merc does have a proper DCT in the SLS and now the new GT. For a fair comparison, you'd need to compare the DCT in the SLS or GT to the Porsche PDK. Second - and this is the real kicker - the MCT shifts so much better in S+ than a human ever could in M, that it reallly makes the manual mode (and thus paddle pull delay) meaningless for any practical applications. Why the hell would you want to look at RPM gauges and pull paddles (or heaven forbid operate a third pedal and row through a manual gearbox) when the computer in the MCT does it so much better than any of us on this board ever could? Unless your last name is Hamilton, Rosberg or Vettel, the fastest way around ANY track in a C63 is with the transmission in S or S+. The same goes for the DCT in the M3 or the PDK in the 911/Cayman.
My Porsche 928 GT has a 5.0L naturally aspirated motor and a 5-speed manual (it is a GT so the ratios are different from a regular 928 but that's besides the point). Even with the "peaky", narrower GT powerband, on a track like Mosport I;ve discovered that the fastest way around is to use only 3rd and 4th gear. I lose more time in the two extra shifts by dropping down to 2nd for the slowest corner on the track and back up to 3rd (that's with years of practice, heel and toe and with a short-throw, dog-leg tranny where 2 to 3 is a straight pull down), plus the fact that you're in 3rd instead of 2nd coming out means that you're not going to overpower the rears because you're at 80% of max torque instead of 100%. So - with the right ratios and a 5L motor, the fastest time around a track where the minimum speed is 60 or so km/h in corner 5b to the ~230 km/h at the top of the Andretti straight before corner 8 is using two gears, and the entire time you're still getting 80% or more of maximum available torque.
The story is indeed very different with smaller dispalcement engines where you don't have the wide powerband, but my point is that on these cars (including the new 4.0 TT or the current 5.5 TT powerinfg the rest of the 63 series) the number of gears has nothing to do with performance.
I have driven various cars with the DCT, PDK and DSG on and off the track. Yes, BMW's DCT by itself is faster shifting and more responsive from the Benz MCT (by a hair), but the C63 coupe is still faster around Mostport than a E92 M3, and I prefer it as a daily driver over the M3 coupe by quite a margin. The Porsche Cayman and 997 are in a different league, but they were designed to be sports car with a small-ish motor, not a luxury vehicle, and their PDK still has 7 gears. Audi's DSG is inferior in execution to the MCT, not to mention the whole car as a package.
There are two other things to consider here. First, as I mentioned earliser, Merc does have a proper DCT in the SLS and now the new GT. For a fair comparison, you'd need to compare the DCT in the SLS or GT to the Porsche PDK. Second - and this is the real kicker - the MCT shifts so much better in S+ than a human ever could in M, that it reallly makes the manual mode (and thus paddle pull delay) meaningless for any practical applications. Why the hell would you want to look at RPM gauges and pull paddles (or heaven forbid operate a third pedal and row through a manual gearbox) when the computer in the MCT does it so much better than any of us on this board ever could? Unless your last name is Hamilton, Rosberg or Vettel, the fastest way around ANY track in a C63 is with the transmission in S or S+. The same goes for the DCT in the M3 or the PDK in the 911/Cayman.
I don't really care if S+ is marginally faster, I want to shift !
01-02-2015, 02:58 PM
#37
Super Member
[QUOTE=roadtalontsi;6280548]Agreed, there are enough members here that we could easily get a small gathering setup somewhere.
01-02-2015, 06:11 PM
#38
01-03-2015, 12:37 PM
#39
Super Member
haha, yeah that's too damn early and only once a month anyways. The saturday night meet on 190 and Coit is massive, and usally a TON of cars there from all makes/models.
Otherwise, we just need to set something up to get together for some food, drinks, and car talk somewhere central to everyone.
Otherwise, we just need to set something up to get together for some food, drinks, and car talk somewhere central to everyone.
01-04-2015, 01:32 PM
#40
Member
haha, yeah that's too damn early and only once a month anyways. The saturday night meet on 190 and Coit is massive, and usally a TON of cars there from all makes/models.
Otherwise, we just need to set something up to get together for some food, drinks, and car talk somewhere central to everyone.
Otherwise, we just need to set something up to get together for some food, drinks, and car talk somewhere central to everyone.
I've never heard of the 190/coit show, whats that one called? Also John puts on the carrolton car club meets which is growing and become a great meet.
01-04-2015, 02:01 PM
#41
Super Member
I forget the actual name of the meet off Coit a & 190, but its fairly large and hard to miss if you are just driving by. I'll see if I can find out more info on it.
01-04-2015, 09:24 PM
#42
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C63 AMG 507 Edition
The GT-S is a "Grand Tourer" so you cant argue that its dual clutch would be not refined enough for the C63. It shouldn't be a cost issue either. I'm going to put it down to marketing. They dont want the C63 to have a better transmission than the E63/S63. Expect those to come first, and then filter down to the C63.
My understanding is that MB do their own tranmissions, whereas BMW/Audi use external suppliers.
01-04-2015, 09:29 PM
#43
MBWorld Fanatic!
the coit and 190 meet is on every friday nights. I have no idea who runs it or the official name. It grew pretty quickly though. It starts around 9pm. Lots and Lots of riff-raff crap out there though, only about 30% decent respectable cars and owners.
wheres everyone live at? Im in plano. Maybe we should start a separate thread for this
wheres everyone live at? Im in plano. Maybe we should start a separate thread for this
01-04-2015, 09:57 PM
#44
Super Member
Just thought id share that the 2015 cls is already out and has a 9 speed in it. Why would benz spend money on developing a new gearbox or other major component for the last few production years of a car? That makes no sense. Hmmmm yea i want to pay 100k$ for that new different body with the same engine and transmission as the last. lol.
You also fail to see that the mct transmission is rated at 1000nm instead of 700nm. So to say it's slightly modified is sort of a joke. Personally i hate the mct and think its annoying. Why? because i drive the car everyday in traffic and in parking lots. I bought a torque converter c63 because of that. Sure the mct is more aim'd at the track but not really that amazing compared to a dct. Wait till that dct has 100k miles on it and tell me it still shifts good. If you bought a c63 solely to use on the road course thats kind of stupid. It has too much torque, weighs 4000lbs. m3 will always be faster on the track stock for stock, has no torque/traction issues weighs less and handles better, rides alot rougher too. Amg is about a fine balance and compromise of luxury and performance. The black series being the exception to that rule as it was actually intended for regular track use. Hell if you buy a black series and never go to the track you're just a stupid. Dont compare a twin turbo 3.8l gtr to a 6.2L n/a motor. thats like comparing a tesla to an electric smart car and complaining about range anxiety. a smaller displacement engine can always get better fuel efficiency it's simple physics.
Lets talk about gtr gear box failures when using launch control with traction control turned off. Strange i dont hear about any of those failures with amgs. audi.... no one even races those over priced vw terds. Porsche... people buy them with the expectations of a race car and dont complain about carpet on the door panels, squeaks and rattles because they are weekend only cars not daily drivers.
You also fail to see that the mct transmission is rated at 1000nm instead of 700nm. So to say it's slightly modified is sort of a joke. Personally i hate the mct and think its annoying. Why? because i drive the car everyday in traffic and in parking lots. I bought a torque converter c63 because of that. Sure the mct is more aim'd at the track but not really that amazing compared to a dct. Wait till that dct has 100k miles on it and tell me it still shifts good. If you bought a c63 solely to use on the road course thats kind of stupid. It has too much torque, weighs 4000lbs. m3 will always be faster on the track stock for stock, has no torque/traction issues weighs less and handles better, rides alot rougher too. Amg is about a fine balance and compromise of luxury and performance. The black series being the exception to that rule as it was actually intended for regular track use. Hell if you buy a black series and never go to the track you're just a stupid. Dont compare a twin turbo 3.8l gtr to a 6.2L n/a motor. thats like comparing a tesla to an electric smart car and complaining about range anxiety. a smaller displacement engine can always get better fuel efficiency it's simple physics.
Lets talk about gtr gear box failures when using launch control with traction control turned off. Strange i dont hear about any of those failures with amgs. audi.... no one even races those over priced vw terds. Porsche... people buy them with the expectations of a race car and dont complain about carpet on the door panels, squeaks and rattles because they are weekend only cars not daily drivers.
The regular 2015 CLS uses the new 9 speed. The AMG uses the 7 MCT, but it's been extensively worked over. I drove one the other week, posted a little review in the CLS section. It compares favorably to the M DCT now. World of difference. Not slow or unresponsive. A DCT isn't necessary for the transmission to be good.
01-04-2015, 10:03 PM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
The regular 2015 CLS uses the new 9 speed. The AMG uses the 7 MCT, but it's been extensively worked over. I drove one the other week, posted a little review in the CLS section. It compares favorably to the M DCT now. World of difference. Not slow or unresponsive. A DCT isn't necessary for the transmission to be good.
01-05-2015, 11:18 PM
#46
Super Member
New thread starting now...
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...ml#post6284779
OP, sorry for the hijacking!
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...ml#post6284779
OP, sorry for the hijacking!
Last edited by johnny--2k; 01-05-2015 at 11:22 PM.
