Brand new c63 1400miles blown engine
12-25-2014, 08:49 PM
#26
Fellas, we are getting way ahead of ourselves in terms of the actual problem. OP keep us posted with out come. To the guy posting about engine break-in period has no clue and willing to bet he or she does not even own and AMG
Last edited by AMG6.3; 12-25-2014 at 08:56 PM.
12-25-2014, 09:22 PM
#27
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2011 C63 AMG P31
12-25-2014, 09:25 PM
#28
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Steel and aluminium are very far from indestructible. Especially when they are rubbing together at 7200RPM.
They want it to break after warranty if you are the source of the damage. Revving a car up in idle, beating on it 24/7, prolonged oil service, revving it up while cold, lack of general maintainence and beating on it while it's new are all going to shave years off its life.
Let's put it this way, every time you rev your car up past 4500 or so wile it's freezing cold it's like if you were to smoke down a pack of cigarettes. Yeah, it probably won't do anything, but you just took the risk of developing a problem, one that won't present itself immediately.
They want it to break after warranty if you are the source of the damage. Revving a car up in idle, beating on it 24/7, prolonged oil service, revving it up while cold, lack of general maintainence and beating on it while it's new are all going to shave years off its life.
Let's put it this way, every time you rev your car up past 4500 or so wile it's freezing cold it's like if you were to smoke down a pack of cigarettes. Yeah, it probably won't do anything, but you just took the risk of developing a problem, one that won't present itself immediately.
Very well said. I often start up my car and I have ppl constantly telling me "please can you rev it" and I always say no because of the possibility of failure down the road. Also not pushing the car until the oil temperatures reach their level. I however do beat my car up, i drive it daily as if I'm tracking it. So if something fails, I wont blame the car. I'll blame myself. But the only problem i blame on MB is the darn O2 sensors. Ive replaced at least 7 of them and i failed inspection because monitors were not ready and just yesterday another CEL!
12-25-2014, 10:06 PM
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Very well said. I often start up my car and I have ppl constantly telling me "please can you rev it" and I always say no because of the possibility of failure down the road. Also not pushing the car until the oil temperatures reach their level. I however do beat my car up, i drive it daily as if I'm tracking it. So if something fails, I wont blame the car. I'll blame myself. But the only problem i blame on MB is the darn O2 sensors. Ive replaced at least 7 of them and i failed inspection because monitors were not ready and just yesterday another CEL!
I've yet to have issues with O2 sensors luckily. My rear two are on 90° code out bungs.
12-26-2014, 12:29 AM
#30
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I drive my car quite hard too, provided the oil is up to temp. As long as you keep up with frequent oil changes (and a black stone report here and there doesn't hurt), you should be fine.
I've yet to have issues with O2 sensors luckily. My rear two are on 90° code out bungs.
I've yet to have issues with O2 sensors luckily. My rear two are on 90° code out bungs.
12-26-2014, 01:46 AM
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I have resonator and sec cats removed and retuned but i'm not sure why they keep going out. One guy in the AMG department was telling me lack of backpressure might be the reason. Also someone else made a comment about the possibility of the tune being too aggressive. Not too sure if those are the reasons or not.
I doubt you landed in a bad batch of O2 sensors... Perhaps some slight wiring issues? When they remove them are they incredibly fowweled?
12-26-2014, 11:38 AM
#32
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No they were never too damaged. I never had problema before the tune, once I got the tune, I would changed one every three months.
12-26-2014, 06:22 PM
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Wow, tough crowd.
First of all Toxic, it is a 6.3L engine depending on which way you want to round it. It is false advertising and not a true representation for Mercedes Benz to call this engine 6.2L. It is 6208cc. They must ROUND UP to 6.3L. Avery calling it 6.3L is not wrong.
As for the hard brake in stuff, there are alot of "common knowledge" beliefs on this. Most people think you shouldn't drive hard right off the lot. I dont believe in this. My car did not follow the break in procedure what so ever and it runs like a champ even now at 60k kms. Some theory's for the easy break in is actually to protect the driver, and make sure they are comfortable with the car before going WOT.
I know multiple people that have done the hard break in right off the lot and their cars are running great. Has anyone ever read the brochure for the Nissan GTR? The GTR engine is put on a Dyno right after its assembled for 1 hour to preform tests. During that time it spends 10 minutes are redline. lol. How many GTR engine failures are there???
For the OP if you did drive the car hard brand new, I highly doubt that is the cause of your problems. TONS of people do not follow break in procedures and have zero problems.
First of all Toxic, it is a 6.3L engine depending on which way you want to round it. It is false advertising and not a true representation for Mercedes Benz to call this engine 6.2L. It is 6208cc. They must ROUND UP to 6.3L. Avery calling it 6.3L is not wrong.
As for the hard brake in stuff, there are alot of "common knowledge" beliefs on this. Most people think you shouldn't drive hard right off the lot. I dont believe in this. My car did not follow the break in procedure what so ever and it runs like a champ even now at 60k kms. Some theory's for the easy break in is actually to protect the driver, and make sure they are comfortable with the car before going WOT.
I know multiple people that have done the hard break in right off the lot and their cars are running great. Has anyone ever read the brochure for the Nissan GTR? The GTR engine is put on a Dyno right after its assembled for 1 hour to preform tests. During that time it spends 10 minutes are redline. lol. How many GTR engine failures are there???
For the OP if you did drive the car hard brand new, I highly doubt that is the cause of your problems. TONS of people do not follow break in procedures and have zero problems.
12-26-2014, 06:34 PM
#34
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Has anyone ever read the torture testing Ford does on their 5.0L Coyote V8 Engine? Here is a little blurb.
Source:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts...es-engine.html
I am not saying its good to go WOT with the car cold. Just trying to show what some modern designed engines go through.
Source:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts...es-engine.html
Besides meeting the performance goals the Coyote had to pass all of Ford's standard durability tests. These dyno sessions are incredibly brutal, always far exceeding what any rational customer would do to his engine, and occasionally surpassing what is physically possible in a car.
We observed some of this internal combustion water-boarding, and for anyone with a foot-pound of mechanical sympathy it isn't pretty. Engines run fatigue cycles equivalent to 62 Daytona 500 races. Others replicate customer drive cycles for 1,000 running hours to include 1,000 cold starts, plus hitting its peak torque and power for sustained periods. That test alone runs 100 hours a week for two and a half months.
We witnessed another torture session where the engine was run at WOT for several minutes, the headers glowing just a hint of red, then the engine shut off and after several seconds of sitting, -20 degree ice water was forced through the cooling system. Frost formed on the test rig as the engine was about frozen to death, then the ice water stopped, the engine started and after a handful of seconds idling was taken back to max rpm, max load for another heat cycle up to 225 degrees. Each complete cycle takes about 10 minutes, and the engine must survive days of these non-stop thermal shocks.
Most incredibly, "It can't be on its last legs at the end of the test," says Mike. "It can't be that it hasn't seized yet, we need to see crosshatching on the cylinders, no full-face ring wear, leak down needs to be below, oh, eight percent; it has to be very, very functional and could go do it again, quite frankly."
Be assured, this is one team, and engine, that has gone the extra mile to produce a no-excuses Mustang V-8.
We observed some of this internal combustion water-boarding, and for anyone with a foot-pound of mechanical sympathy it isn't pretty. Engines run fatigue cycles equivalent to 62 Daytona 500 races. Others replicate customer drive cycles for 1,000 running hours to include 1,000 cold starts, plus hitting its peak torque and power for sustained periods. That test alone runs 100 hours a week for two and a half months.
We witnessed another torture session where the engine was run at WOT for several minutes, the headers glowing just a hint of red, then the engine shut off and after several seconds of sitting, -20 degree ice water was forced through the cooling system. Frost formed on the test rig as the engine was about frozen to death, then the ice water stopped, the engine started and after a handful of seconds idling was taken back to max rpm, max load for another heat cycle up to 225 degrees. Each complete cycle takes about 10 minutes, and the engine must survive days of these non-stop thermal shocks.
Most incredibly, "It can't be on its last legs at the end of the test," says Mike. "It can't be that it hasn't seized yet, we need to see crosshatching on the cylinders, no full-face ring wear, leak down needs to be below, oh, eight percent; it has to be very, very functional and could go do it again, quite frankly."
Be assured, this is one team, and engine, that has gone the extra mile to produce a no-excuses Mustang V-8.
I am not saying its good to go WOT with the car cold. Just trying to show what some modern designed engines go through.
12-26-2014, 09:17 PM
#35
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I gotta say, even though this thread has blasted COMPLETELY off-topic, that I'm always amazed at everyone who knows better than the manufacturer. Anecdotal evidence, personal reports, other manufacturer's press bits, none of it is really relevant. I guess you might be right, but I went with the break in and I'll always do it. If you don't want to, then go ahead, but it's inappropriate for you to recommend that someone else not follow the manufacturer's recs based off of your beliefs. Unless you work for MB/AMG, are some top engineer who worked on the team who developed the break-in recs, then what you're saying really doesn't mean diddle.
That beings said, I'm also a firm believer in do what you want. But just don't try and tell me or convince me or others that you know better, because I'm pretty sure you just don't.
Not sure if the OP has returned, but kind of odd just to jump to blown engine without any indication as such?
That beings said, I'm also a firm believer in do what you want. But just don't try and tell me or convince me or others that you know better, because I'm pretty sure you just don't.
Not sure if the OP has returned, but kind of odd just to jump to blown engine without any indication as such?
12-26-2014, 10:53 PM
#36
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Wow, tough crowd.
First of all Toxic, it is a 6.3L engine depending on which way you want to round it. It is false advertising and not a true representation for Mercedes Benz to call this engine 6.2L. It is 6208cc. They must ROUND UP to 6.3L. Avery calling it 6.3L is not wrong.
As for the hard brake in stuff, there are alot of "common knowledge" beliefs on this. Most people think you shouldn't drive hard right off the lot. I dont believe in this. My car did not follow the break in procedure what so ever and it runs like a champ even now at 60k kms. Some theory's for the easy break in is actually to protect the driver, and make sure they are comfortable with the car before going WOT.
I know multiple people that have done the hard break in right off the lot and their cars are running great. Has anyone ever read the brochure for the Nissan GTR? The GTR engine is put on a Dyno right after its assembled for 1 hour to preform tests. During that time it spends 10 minutes are redline. lol. How many GTR engine failures are there???
For the OP if you did drive the car hard brand new, I highly doubt that is the cause of your problems. TONS of people do not follow break in procedures and have zero problems.
First of all Toxic, it is a 6.3L engine depending on which way you want to round it. It is false advertising and not a true representation for Mercedes Benz to call this engine 6.2L. It is 6208cc. They must ROUND UP to 6.3L. Avery calling it 6.3L is not wrong.
As for the hard brake in stuff, there are alot of "common knowledge" beliefs on this. Most people think you shouldn't drive hard right off the lot. I dont believe in this. My car did not follow the break in procedure what so ever and it runs like a champ even now at 60k kms. Some theory's for the easy break in is actually to protect the driver, and make sure they are comfortable with the car before going WOT.
I know multiple people that have done the hard break in right off the lot and their cars are running great. Has anyone ever read the brochure for the Nissan GTR? The GTR engine is put on a Dyno right after its assembled for 1 hour to preform tests. During that time it spends 10 minutes are redline. lol. How many GTR engine failures are there???
For the OP if you did drive the car hard brand new, I highly doubt that is the cause of your problems. TONS of people do not follow break in procedures and have zero problems.
Refer to my cigarette analogy, as for break in. Break in was a much more serious topic many years ago when more rudimentary tools were used to hone cylinders, and rings were gapped to a "good enough" spec. Break in procedure let the hone wear the rings to a proper fit. Now days everything is almost perfect from the factory, there is much less margin of error.
Heck. Some break in procedures are actually "keep engine revs very high" to accelerate the nail and file affect of piston rings.
Most, if any issues you will see from improperly seated rings may take up to 250,000km to show themselves. You might burn a hair more oil here and there, but gradually over time any precursor flaws will become more serious. Your "60k kms" is hardly any serious millage (Though, my friends C63 motor has blown and he's at 60 I believe). Hell, look at BMWs with these 28K oil service intervals. They still make it 120k or so before they self destruct (and I have seen these motors taken apart afterwords, looks like someone pumped road tar through them).
Let's just put it this way, because I'm tired of having to try and convince people. Will it hurt you to drive the car gently for a few thousand K when it's new? Will you physically get ill? No. Show your car some common curtesy and respect, and be patient. When I got my S4 it had 60km on it, it was brand new off the boat. Audi told me I could drive it hard right off the floor, ignoring the factory break in instructions, but I decided I would be patient and drive it civil for 2000km. It's your car, drive it as ou please, but show it some respect.
Last edited by ToXicXxX; 12-26-2014 at 11:08 PM.
12-26-2014, 11:47 PM
#37
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Ummm, no. You're wrong. Hate to burst your bubble but it's a 6.2L. "Rounding" has nothing to do with it, nor does "false advertising". It's the displacement. Just because the badge says 63 don't make it so. Look at some of the other AMGs, and then see if your logic works there - it doesn't. The "63" badge is just a moniker.
12-27-2014, 12:29 AM
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Ummm, no. You're wrong. Hate to burst your bubble but it's a 6.2L. "Rounding" has nothing to do with it, nor does "false advertising". It's the displacement. Just because the badge says 63 don't make it so. Look at some of the other AMGs, and then see if your logic works there - it doesn't. The "63" badge is just a moniker.
12-27-2014, 12:30 AM
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Ummm, no. You're wrong. Hate to burst your bubble but it's a 6.2L. "Rounding" has nothing to do with it, nor does "false advertising". It's the displacement. Just because the badge says 63 don't make it so. Look at some of the other AMGs, and then see if your logic works there - it doesn't. The "63" badge is just a moniker.
The 63 badge yes.
What about the 6.3L V8 badge?
The M156 is 6208cc. This is over 6.2L. Mercedes cannot call this engine 6.2L. They must round it to 6.3 because of the 8cc difference. If it was a 6199cc engine than they can advertise it as 6.2L
So basically as far an I understand, any engine made by a manufacturer must have less CC than what they call it (M157 5.5L v8 5461cc) (M178 4.0L v8 3982cc) Ect ect...
Last edited by AMG Boost; 12-27-2014 at 12:43 AM.
12-27-2014, 12:35 AM
#40
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Rounding does not physically increase displacement. Especially by 92CC. There would be a power difference if this engine was a true 6.3L displacement. To me, it's more logical to round down 8CC then round up a staggering 92CC.
Refer to my cigarette analogy, as for break in. Break in was a much more serious topic many years ago when more rudimentary tools were used to hone cylinders, and rings were gapped to a "good enough" spec. Break in procedure let the hone wear the rings to a proper fit. Now days everything is almost perfect from the factory, there is much less margin of error.
Heck. Some break in procedures are actually "keep engine revs very high" to accelerate the nail and file affect of piston rings.
Most, if any issues you will see from improperly seated rings may take up to 250,000km to show themselves. You might burn a hair more oil here and there, but gradually over time any precursor flaws will become more serious. Your "60k kms" is hardly any serious millage (Though, my friends C63 motor has blown and he's at 60 I believe). Hell, look at BMWs with these 28K oil service intervals. They still make it 120k or so before they self destruct (and I have seen these motors taken apart afterwords, looks like someone pumped road tar through them).
Let's just put it this way, because I'm tired of having to try and convince people. Will it hurt you to drive the car gently for a few thousand K when it's new? Will you physically get ill? No. Show your car some common curtesy and respect, and be patient. When I got my S4 it had 60km on it, it was brand new off the boat. Audi told me I could drive it hard right off the floor, ignoring the factory break in instructions, but I decided I would be patient and drive it civil for 2000km. It's your car, drive it as ou please, but show it some respect.
Refer to my cigarette analogy, as for break in. Break in was a much more serious topic many years ago when more rudimentary tools were used to hone cylinders, and rings were gapped to a "good enough" spec. Break in procedure let the hone wear the rings to a proper fit. Now days everything is almost perfect from the factory, there is much less margin of error.
Heck. Some break in procedures are actually "keep engine revs very high" to accelerate the nail and file affect of piston rings.
Most, if any issues you will see from improperly seated rings may take up to 250,000km to show themselves. You might burn a hair more oil here and there, but gradually over time any precursor flaws will become more serious. Your "60k kms" is hardly any serious millage (Though, my friends C63 motor has blown and he's at 60 I believe). Hell, look at BMWs with these 28K oil service intervals. They still make it 120k or so before they self destruct (and I have seen these motors taken apart afterwords, looks like someone pumped road tar through them).
Let's just put it this way, because I'm tired of having to try and convince people. Will it hurt you to drive the car gently for a few thousand K when it's new? Will you physically get ill? No. Show your car some common curtesy and respect, and be patient. When I got my S4 it had 60km on it, it was brand new off the boat. Audi told me I could drive it hard right off the floor, ignoring the factory break in instructions, but I decided I would be patient and drive it civil for 2000km. It's your car, drive it as ou please, but show it some respect.
I do agree. And I am not gonna argue. I love the C63 its a awesome car and im gonna leave it there
12-27-2014, 03:49 AM
#41
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I don't understand why this is even a debate or issue on this forum or for MB. A new car, 1400 miles on it, fix the problem or get a new one at no cost to the OP. Anything else is unacceptable.
12-27-2014, 08:30 AM
#42
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12-27-2014, 09:47 AM
#44
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2014 E63S; AMS 100 octane ecu tune; edok tcu tune; BB intakes; dyno tuned
Blown engine!!! Lol
12-29-2014, 09:59 AM
#45
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it's a 6.3L handmade V8 with almost 500HP...it doesn't "need" to be taken care of, put fluids in it, keep them topped up..and abuse the living hell out of it, these are machines, with zero emotions, they aren't new born children, and if its 2014 and engines have a high chance of breaking within the first few thousand KM, well then someone needs to burn the entire auto industry down, because 100 years and litterly probably trillions in R&D and they can't make a engine work under abuse properly from the factory? What a miserable fail by every car maker in the industry
i dont get guys who toot the whole "oh drive it like a baby for 2000 KM" ...yeah ok because you know all those massivly oversized parts AMG put in are more frigile then glass....if you buy an AMG and it breaks within the first 4,000 KM then someone at AMG needs to be fired stat
the whole breakin period was made by lawyers so AMG / MB doesn't get their *** sued off incase they have a fault engine from the factory
i dont get guys who toot the whole "oh drive it like a baby for 2000 KM" ...yeah ok because you know all those massivly oversized parts AMG put in are more frigile then glass....if you buy an AMG and it breaks within the first 4,000 KM then someone at AMG needs to be fired stat
the whole breakin period was made by lawyers so AMG / MB doesn't get their *** sued off incase they have a fault engine from the factory
Bottom line these motors do not need to be babied, just do proper routine maintanance and you will be fine.
12-29-2014, 10:05 AM
#46
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It's a 6.2L. If you can't get the basic facts right... That's pretty sad.
As someone who has built performance engines, and actively works to maintain them... You have literally no idea what you're talking about.
The whole wear in period serves several purposes, previously it was meant to wear in the rings on the course hone pattern on cylinder walls, but now days honning has advanced far enough that this isn't a huge factor. Another purpose of this period is because parts must "wear together". In your first oil change, there will be massive metal content because of this, in fact whenever I've built motors we used special break in oil that was meant to handle the very harsh running conditions of a new motor. Often a fairly large amount of oil is also burnt during this period. In this period parts are also effectively "tested" for build quality, if there are flaws they will show.
Think of it this way, a new engine is effectively a solid piece. There is barely any room for parts to move because of the extreme tolerances everything is built to. In those 1500km you are letting the motor perfectly wear everything together. It wears off any small burrs (I'm talking microscopic here), hence why you will end up with metal in your oil.
When you run a new engine hard, you're just asking for a failure. Be it imidiate or 100,000km down the line. MB would hope it fails at 100k, so they don't have to fix your stupidity.
As someone who has built performance engines, and actively works to maintain them... You have literally no idea what you're talking about.
The whole wear in period serves several purposes, previously it was meant to wear in the rings on the course hone pattern on cylinder walls, but now days honning has advanced far enough that this isn't a huge factor. Another purpose of this period is because parts must "wear together". In your first oil change, there will be massive metal content because of this, in fact whenever I've built motors we used special break in oil that was meant to handle the very harsh running conditions of a new motor. Often a fairly large amount of oil is also burnt during this period. In this period parts are also effectively "tested" for build quality, if there are flaws they will show.
Think of it this way, a new engine is effectively a solid piece. There is barely any room for parts to move because of the extreme tolerances everything is built to. In those 1500km you are letting the motor perfectly wear everything together. It wears off any small burrs (I'm talking microscopic here), hence why you will end up with metal in your oil.
When you run a new engine hard, you're just asking for a failure. Be it imidiate or 100,000km down the line. MB would hope it fails at 100k, so they don't have to fix your stupidity.
These AMG motors are all put through a series of multiple dyno break-ins, the manufactureres break-in period is simply fluff.
12-29-2014, 10:14 AM
#47
MBWorld Fanatic!
Ummm, no. You're wrong. Hate to burst your bubble but it's a 6.2L. "Rounding" has nothing to do with it, nor does "false advertising". It's the displacement. Just because the badge says 63 don't make it so. Look at some of the other AMGs, and then see if your logic works there - it doesn't. The "63" badge is just a moniker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_300SEL_6.3
http://fabwheelsdigest.blogspot.com/...l-63-race.html
12-29-2014, 10:17 AM
#48
Well said! I beat the snot out of my AMG's the moment I take delivery. All AMG motors are dyno tested and put through a break in on a dyno. Hell, I had my SLS BS on a dyno 30 minuts after I took delivery and Weistec did a dyno tune on it that afternoon while on the dyno. These motors are the best built motors you can find in a production vehicle. My I hit the tops speed limiter in my CLK BS the second day I owned it. I tracked the car several times, modded it with headers and a tune and sprayed about 10 tanks of NOS through the motor in the first two years I owned it. When I shipped the car off to Wesitec for the initial blower install I had them tear the motor down for a rebuild just to be safe. When they opened it up they said the motor looked like brand new and they were very surprised knowing how hard I had driven the car. A compression test before tear down showed nearly identical compression acrossed all 8 cylinders and at factory new specs.
Bottom line these motors do not need to be babied, just do proper routine maintanance and you will be fine.
Bottom line these motors do not need to be babied, just do proper routine maintanance and you will be fine.
this is actually a well stated thought out logical response with anecdotal evidence rather than complaining about people saying something should be babied.
though I still believe in being cautious at the start just in-case and not doing so probably won't cause harm but i'd rather just follow the instructions fluff or not.
Sorry for this entire debate OP, i wasn't intending for this to go so OT was just throwing out possible issues.
12-29-2014, 02:34 PM
#49
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JR - is that true of all the different AMG motors? After the engine blew in my C55, the factory rep gave me the impression that they spin every engine after the build, but that they use an external power source. My impression was that the test is just to be sure that all the parts rotate properly and that they've got compression.
12-29-2014, 03:21 PM
#50
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JR - is that true of all the different AMG motors? After the engine blew in my C55, the factory rep gave me the impression that they spin every engine after the build, but that they use an external power source. My impression was that the test is just to be sure that all the parts rotate properly and that they've got compression.
Last edited by jrcart; 12-29-2014 at 03:23 PM.
