jptaylor

I am all for make your car your OWN, play with it, work on it, drive the **** out of it and enjoy it.....but as for Mag-Moss, it is not hard at all for any mfg to get around that when it comes to changing the OEM operating parameters of a computer controlled engine....they set it up to run at X efficiency on Y program...when Y program is changed then X efficiency is gone, and it is NOT the mfg who threw X out the window..... Just saying, you may be covered, may not be covered...know your financial limits and make your own decision

zibby43

Absolutely. You gotta pay to play.

I was just throwing that out there. It really depends on the fact pattern. If someone installs an aggressive aftermarket tune on a turbocharged car and the wastegates end up crapping out, the manufacturer is likely going to have some strong arguments re: whether the tune played a direct role in the failure.

When I was in the BMW community, I always went with Dinan or BMW M Performance modifications. Both lines of products offered very attractive warranty coverage.

One of my highly tuned E90 335i sedans (N54 motor) had a Dinan high-capacity oil cooler. The cooler developed a hairline crack and Dinan sent me an entire replacement kit (brand new) next-day air. Dinan paid my local authorized BMW dealer for the 10+ hours of labor required for the removal/re-installation. Zero fuss and no finger pointing.

On a side note, it looks like Eurocharged offers a limited/conditional warranty on its tunes:

http://www.eurocharged.com/warranty

PaulE550

Absolutely correct! It all depends on how aggressive the tune is relative to what the engine and transmission are designed to handle at the upper limits on a regular basis. Yes these engines all can deliver a lot more power than what the manufacturer sets them to at the factory. I would say all MB vehicles are shipped with very conservative tunes from the factory. After all, they have to make the various government agencies happy, so they are allowed to sell their cars around the world. They also take into account how the average person drives and so on. MB also wants to up-sell the public to more expensive models, so the same engine in one model can be substantially de-tuned from another model with the exact same engine and transmission pair.

However, there seems to be a difference between optimizing a tune to reach the vehicle's maximum safe operating potential over the long-term (more than say just two to four years before flipping it for a new car) and what may be a overly aggressive tunes that may exceed what some engines may be able to handle over the long-term based on DD use. Of course if the car is a garage queen, only taken out a few times a month to track, then it likely doesn't matter how aggressive one's tune is. You're not likely to use it enough to damage anything as a result of an overly aggressive tune in the time you own it. I think that's where the conflict in the discussion is.

A tune within the parameters of what the engine and transmission can safely handle should be absolutely fine. So one shouldn't be concerned over the warranty that much as nothing likely will go wrong as a result of the tune. On the other hand, if the tune is designed to maximize power at the expense of long-term operating margins, then unfortunately yes, you may be stuck with an expensive repair bill for some part MB may link, one way or the other, to the altered ECU code. As a lot of people say on this forum, you have to pay to play. So it's up to the individual to know if the tune they want to plug in is within the design parameters of what the engine and drive train can handle safely.

Diabolis

This addresses everything discussed in the thread... and some of us don't even live in the US, so Magnusson
Moss doesn't even apply.

http://www.speedsportlife.com/2011/0...big-of-a-deal/

Diabolis

And in this particular case you would be quite wrong.

You are missing one very important aspect here. It's not matter of what an engine (or any other product) can handle in terms of PEAK power - it's what it can handle and for how long. In other words, you have an engine that with the OEM tune on average lasts for X operating hours (or miles). The moment you increase the power by some percantage, you decrease the operating hours (or miles) by a proportional percentage. There is no such thing as a "safe" tune or a "safe" range. More power = more stress = shorter lifespan.

In 1986, BMW's 1.5-liter inline four-cylinder turbocharged M12/13 engine powering the F1 Benetton B186 in qualifying trim could produce about 1,500 bhp - but it and the transmission would only last for one lap. The power had to be de-tuned to about 1,100 bhp for practice - when the engine and tranny would last for about 30 laps, and down to about 900 bhp in order to make the full race distance of roughly 60 laps or 300 km.

Read the article at the URL I posted above so I don't have to regurgitate everythign here.

Diabolis

That is 100% true regarding Dinan or ///M Performance. The interesting tidbit is that the Dinan kits cost about three times as much as the competition. The reason is simple - with a Dinan kit you usually got a few other bits instead of just the tune, it was installed at the BMW dealership by a trained mechanic, and most importantly, Dinan picked up the remainder of the factory BMW warranty which became null and void the moment the Dinan aftermarket upgrade was installed. As for the ///M Performance parts, it's no different from having a P31 package, carbon ceramic brakes on the E63S or the post-FL "afterthought" C63 Enhanced Cooling Package installed by a factory trained mechanic. None of them will void your factory vehicle warranty - because they were developed, buit and installed by the factory or in the last case, factory trained techs.

As for the Eurocharged warranty, I would like to draw your attention to the following two lines (emphasis is mine):

- Coverage is for 2 years or 20,000 miles from the original in-service date
- Motor coverage is limited to $50,000

In other words, if you took delivery of your C63 on July 1, 2013, you babied or even stored your car for the last year and a half, and then installed the Eurocharged tune two months ago when your car only had 4,000 miles on the odometer, your warranty expired yesterday. Not even close to what Dinan is offering.

PaulE550

Good info on the Euro charge warranty. Thanks for the info. Essentially the warranty would appear to be of almost no value to anyone other than someone who did a tune on day one of new car ownership and then got rid of the car before the two year warranty window closed. If the car is older than two years, then the warranty is worthless correct?

Diabolis

That's the way I read it. Eurocharged is a sponsor here so that's something that they can certainly clarify themselves.


If am wrong though, it would mean that they would need to warranty a 120,000 mile, 6 year old car with worn cams and what not that just had a tune put on it, for the next 2 years & 20,000 miles.. now THAT would be the best aftermnerket warranty I can think of. You buy a used car, throw on a $1K tune, and you're good for the next two years.

PaulE550

I agree. There is no such thing as free extra power. It of course has to come at a cost of increased engine and drive train stress and thus a reduced lifespan on various parts. The more aggressive the tune, the greater the component stress and lower the lifespan of the parts. That is why I said the individual has to be aware of what they are plugging into their ecu. It is a balancing act of trading more power for less component lifespan. My idea of a safe tune is comparing what MB tunes the same engine / transmission pair across their product line to determine what the safe upper range would be, not what some tuners claim they can get at peak output. When I see what some tuners claim they can deliver on a safe basis, l have to wonder how much, if any, long term testing (months not hours or a few days) was done. Thus the warranties are written the way they are.

PaulE550

By the way, the way you described the way Dinan does BMW is what some MB tuner ideally should be able to do.

Diabolis

Now that's spot-on.

zibby43

Absolutely agree with everything you said. Well stated. Dinan sometimes gets flamed for being too expensive or not aggressive enough. As a risk-averse enthusiast, the extra $$ for peace of mind is worth it to me.

To clarify, I wasn't necessarily trying to make comparisons between Dinan's warranty coverage and Eurocharged's. That's why I said that Eurocharged offered a "limited/conditional" warranty. You aptly identified and emphasized those conditions/limitations.

Still, regardless of the constraints (which are very vendor-friendly), it's nice that Eurocharged does this. Quite a few MB tuners don't.

Gerry_M

The C63 should be easy. Match them with the other more expensive m156 63s out there. I think most of the well known tunes out there gets the C63 to that power level. I would actually prefer to have the stock MB C63 507 settings put in my car, now I wonder if thats possible.

AMGonFire

We are talking about a car that in other applications puts out over 500 hp euro charged tune claims 540 we are talking about really around 20 extra hp over what the mb manufacturers produced. I don't think that is anything to be concerned about. I put way more hp on previous cars that where wayy lower end vehicles without hand built motors no problem. Everyone here is speculating. My question is anyone that currently has a eurocharged tune have you ever had an engine failure?? Would be nice to hear from euro charged as well in regards to long term testing. As far as being detected I agree if they look really hard they might see a descrepency, but they can assume from a tune but really they cannot prove that's what it's from no way no how. They could deny coverage it's a risk. If you argued with them they might still cover it you don't know till your in that situation. Fingers crossed