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Great news. Do you think you could pick up the faulty ones so that we can do a post mortem on them and see what it is that actually fails on these things.
Happy to do a skype session to walk you through if needed.
Ok, bad news missionary. Don't waste your money. The cam adjuster is not what's making the noise. Got my car back had maybe 3 normal starts I'm thinking just a fluke. Then the noise is back. Same noise as before. Starting to think the tech I originally took it to and told me the sound is normal was right. He told me I can replace the adjusters but the sound will still be there it's normal. Starting to believe it. I'm thinking it has to do with the oil draining that is setup in the motor because if I start it it will make the noise. Shut it off wait 5 seconds start again no noise oil hasn't drained back down yet and no noise. Usually have to wait like 20 minutes to get the noise on warm motor. I'm going to call the dealership on mon see what they say. But I'm thinking this is normal on some motors the car runs great pulls strong no issues there never was just the noise. Sucks thought it was fixed
Ok, bad news missionary. Don't waste your money. The cam adjuster is not what's making the noise. Got my car back had maybe 3 normal starts I'm thinking just a fluke. Then the noise is back. Same noise as before. Starting to think the tech I originally took it to and told me the sound is normal was right. He told me I can replace the adjusters but the sound will still be there it's normal. Starting to believe it. I'm thinking it has to do with the oil draining that is setup in the motor because if I start it it will make the noise. Shut it off wait 5 seconds start again no noise oil hasn't drained back down yet and no noise. Usually have to wait like 20 minutes to get the noise on warm motor. I'm going to call the dealership on mon see what they say. But I'm thinking this is normal on some motors the car runs great pulls strong no issues there never was just the noise. Sucks thought it was fixed
Or maybe they need to also replace the "unaffected side" adjusters as well? In any event, and FWIW, my SA told me a few times that while it sounds nasty, it doesn't cause any harm to the engine (they keep replacing them anyway).
AMGonfire, yes this is all about oil drain back.
Are you able to keep your old ones for a post mortem?
Are you able to ask your tech if this could be related to solenoid seals or adjuster rings?
It turned out that my car had the wrong oil in it. 5W-30 which was causing very premature oil drain back when warm. I am still getting the issue but significantly less severe.
I have run 3 tests: The two hour test gave best symptom results. Max, ENV, AMGonfire would you guys be able to post a vid sound clip of your cars running the 2 (~65 deg C) hour drain back test?
Heat the oil up to 105 deg C (on the AMG screen) check first start after 1 (78deg C), 2 (69 deg C), 3 (56 deg C) hours and note what the oil temp has cooled down to.
My thoughts is that it may also be seals in the camshaft adjuster solenoids or wear in the the end housing in which the three rings sealing the oil flow in and out of the adjusters run.
My BMW does no such thing after my seal modifications and the end housing in which these rings run was replace with a hardened version.
And why don't we hear this on cold start?
Engine oil prime is faster due to the high initial RPM on cold start?
Software leaves the adjusters in full retard until oil pressure is up ?
It may be "normal" but I would say that small design improvements would eliminate it completely and I can't rationalise why it would only be coming from the right bank! Same for me...
AMGonfire, yes this is all about oil drain back.
Are you able to keep your old ones for a post mortem?
Are you able to ask your tech if this could be related to solenoid seals or adjuster rings?
It turned out that my car had the wrong oil in it. 5W-30 which was causing very premature oil drain back when warm. I am still getting the issue but significantly less severe.
I have run 3 tests: The two hour test gave best symptom results. Max, ENV, AMGonfire would you guys be able to post a vid sound clip of your cars running the 2 (~65 deg C) hour drain back test?
Heat the oil up to 105 deg C (on the AMG screen) check first start after 1 (78deg C), 2 (69 deg C), 3 (56 deg C) hours and note what the oil temp has cooled down to.
My thoughts is that it may also be seals in the camshaft adjuster solenoids or wear in the the end housing in which the three rings sealing the oil flow in and out of the adjusters run.
My BMW does no such thing after my seal modifications and the end housing in which these rings run was replace with a hardened version.
And why don't we hear this on cold start?
Engine oil prime is faster due to the high initial RPM on cold start?
Software leaves the adjusters in full retard until oil pressure is up ?
It may be "normal" but I would say that small design improvements would eliminate it completely and I can't rationalise why it would only be coming from the right bank! Same for me...
It's just weird the sound only comes from one side the drivers side. I would think adding new adjusters would replace those other parts as well. Even so I think it's more of a design flaw and even if they didn't replace those oil drains I doubt they are broken would have been noticed by tech. Calling them on mon see what they say really hate getting loaners but maybe they think it's somthing else who knows. In your videos I don't here much of an improvement with the thicker oil. Mine sounds like your vids. My car does make the noise on cold starts it's just a lot queiter and hardly noticable. I think it's the thicker oil and higher quicker rev and cold start that gets oil up there faster.
The rattle noise on start up is adjuster noise. I tried starting another thread outlining this info, but it didn't really seem to stick. I'm still trying to find out if anyone has had any failures occur from the adjuster noise. I haven't heard of any yet.
A constant tapping from the valve train is cam/lifter failure.
Are you able to confirm if your affected side was/is the right bank as well? Anyone else?
Did you manage to collect the faulty adjusters from the work shop?
I can assure you that NOT all M156 engine make this noise. See below for video sound clips of 5 other M156 powered cars on warm first start 1-2 hours after shut down. Only one has this issue.
It would be really helpful if you guys could post your sound recordings.
Heat the oil up to 105 deg C (on the AMG screen), record first start after 2 hours
To clarify all the above videos above are with the same new, thicker, Mobil 1 0W40 oil at different times after hot shut down. Note that the oil temp is a reference only. It is more about the drain down time. Oil should become slower to prime as it thickens. Two hours shows the worst symptoms.
See below for the pre oil change sound clips from the 9th of August post change clip also included.
Sporadically Occurring Noise on Engine Start in Area of the Chain Drive
If you receive customer reports in the above model vehicles of a sporadically occurring noisewhen first starting the engine, this may be due to the intake camshaft adjusters or valve tappets. Use the following sound recordings to assist in fault tracing.
Camshaft Adjuster Sound Recording
• Rattling sound with one malfunctioning camshaft adjuster.
• Rattling sound with two malfunctioning camshaft adjusters.
Valve Tappets Sound Recording
• Clattering
Sound clips are embedded. For post late 2011 C63s we can ignore the valve tappet issue.
The rattle noise on start up is adjuster noise. I tried starting another thread outlining this info, but it didn't really seem to stick. I'm still trying to find out if anyone has had any failures occur from the adjuster noise. I haven't heard of any yet.
A constant tapping from the valve train is cam/lifter failure.
Is this tapping a sound or do you feel the tapping through the car (through pedals, in your seat, etc)? For example a feeling like the car is misfiring but no codes are ever stored.
My car has a feeling like the car is mifiring here and there liek tapping through pedal on occasion. MB tech told me its normal as the you always feel the engine in these cars because its a 6.2 and not like the V6s I am used to. I told him I thought the consensus was V6 were always engines that ran more rough than V8s and this car I can always feel the motor shaking here and there. I thought it was misfires and I am wondering if I have this issue. I am under warranty for the next year and a half so I am wondering if I should just continue to drive the car and see if it ever gets worse or if I should even be worried.
ENV, that is unrelated.
Max, have you tried warming up to 100 - 105 deg C and then taking a vid after a 2 hours sit? Pretty sure that will show symptoms. Was yours left or right bank?
ENV, that is unrelated.
Max, have you tried warming up to 100 - 105 deg C and then taking a vid after a 2 hours sit? Pretty sure that will show symptoms. Was yours left or right bank?
Are you able to confirm if your affected side was/is the right bank as well? Anyone else?
Did you manage to collect the faulty adjusters from the work shop?
I can assure you that NOT all M156 engine make this noise. See below for video sound clips of 5 other M156 powered cars on warm first start 1-2 hours after shut down. Only one has this issue.
It would be really helpful if you guys could post your sound recordings.
To clarify all the above videos above are with the same new, thicker, Mobil 1 0W40 oil at different times after hot shut down. Note that the oil temp is a reference only. It is more about the drain down time. Oil should become slower to prime as it thickens. Two hours shows the worst symptoms.
See below for the pre oil change sound clips from the 9th of August post change clip also included.
M156 C63 2008 47,000ks Warm Start 1.45 from Shutdown - BAD - Cam adjuster and lifter issues https://vimeo.com/137730502
In all those videos you can still hear the rattle just varying degrees. I'm assuming you posted them to show normal sounding starts. But I could still hear it. My car unsure what is right or left bank but it's drivers side valve cover if that helps. It is strictly the drivers side. I did not ask Mercedes for the old adjusters. I would assume they were tossed. Do we think this noise could eventually lead to engine failure?? I'm thinking no. Iv had the adjusters replaced not sure what else that could possibly be broken that could cause damage. What makes me think it's an oil drainage issue is. I can start it get the noise. Shut it off and start it again with no noise. I can do that over and over no noise. Wait an hour noise.
AMG you are quite right that this is an oil drainage issue. I take it you are left hand drive. If so this is on your left bank, mine is the right bank.
The fact that it occurs on one bank and not the other indicates a fault to me.
Essentially the adjusters are slamming back and forth from full advance to full retard with out oil dampening. I would suspect this could damage the vanes or springs in them.
The videos above marked GOOD are vastly better than what I am experiencing. Even the one that had done 108,000k, mine has done 18,000ks.
I suspect a solenoid, adjuster rings, or front cover issue.
Last edited by Missionary; 09-13-2015 at 11:43 PM.
You don't touch the chains, you don't even see them. There is another gear that spins both cams. You need the torque on the cam phaser bolt. Get arp bolts from Weistec, they will tell you the torque. That is the only bolt you will be touching beside valve cover.
There is no slack or anything. With the tools holding the cams and the engine at 40degrees, it's impossible to do it wrong with the tools, they hold everything perfectly.
I'm not sure what the issue is, but I've had two of these engines and both needed new adjusters around 60,000km. I have a noise again and think I might need new ones again or either I have a noisy pulley, I haven't located it yet.
Do I need to buy a pair of those camshaft tool kits to keep both banks in sync at the same and to prevent any chance of a mis-hap, or is it still quite fool-proof to just do one bank at the same time with one tool in operation?
I've never swapped out a cam on any engine without the timing being unset (or rather without the timing tensioner being unset) so I'm finding it hard to get my head around the fact that this tool cam ensure nothing goes wrong. I'm sure it works as I'm told, I just want to be totally sure of what I'm doing etc.
What if the Timing Chain has enough "play/slack" in it such that when relaxed (i.e.-Cam Adjusters either NOT attached or loose enough to reset the Timing disc positions up front) at 40* when you then tighten down the Cam Adjusters, it ends up being slightly off by 4-5* after rotating the Crank 720* ( it takes 2 full revolutions to turn the Cams 360*)???
If I slowly turn the Crank and watch the Cams, there most definitely is a 4-5* delay before the Cams turn. This is why, for me, after setting the timing at 40*
and then proceeding to turn the Crank several revolutions in the process to ensure there's no binding elsewhere that I cannot line up the tools when I approach 40*. Instead, I have to go slightly past 40* to around 44* before the rear plate of the timing tools will lock into place.
Initially I thought that maybe it was the twisting of the Cams that was perhaps the problem, but after observing the "play" in the Timing Chain and taking into consideration the effect the Chain Tensioner might have (i.e.-it may be slightly releasing while turning the Crank accounting for the additional 4*?) I'm thinking it may make sense to start at 35* then slightly tighten down passenger side, torque the Crank CW to 40* using same torque required to turn the Crank otherwise, and then tightening passenger side Cam Adjusters. I realize with a brand new Timing Chain the procedure would be the standard straightforward one we all know. But when there's the "play" I'm referring to, I going to try this method to see if the Cam Tools will line up after making some revolutions on the Crank with the torque of the Cams against the Valve Springs stretching the chain slightly as it would much more aggressively in-situ. I thinking at least this way, when I rotate to 40*, the Tools will line up properly as compared to my presently having to rotate past 40* to get the Tools lined up.
What if the Timing Chain has enough "play/slack" in it such that when relaxed (i.e.-Cam Adjusters either NOT attached or loose enough to reset the Timing disc positions up front) at 40* when you then tighten down the Cam Adjusters, it ends up being slightly off by 4-5* after rotating the Crank 720* ( it takes 2 full revolutions to turn the Cams 360*)???
If I slowly turn the Crank and watch the Cams, there most definitely is a 4-5* delay before the Cams turn. This is why, for me, after setting the timing at 40*
and then proceeding to turn the Crank several revolutions in the process to ensure there's no binding elsewhere that I cannot line up the tools when I approach 40*. Instead, I have to go slightly past 40* to around 44* before the rear plate of the timing tools will lock into place.
Initially I thought that maybe it was the twisting of the Cams that was perhaps the problem, but after observing the "play" in the Timing Chain and taking into consideration the effect the Chain Tensioner might have (i.e.-it may be slightly releasing while turning the Crank accounting for the additional 4*?) I'm thinking it may make sense to start at 35* then slightly tighten down passenger side, torque the Crank CW to 40* using same torque required to turn the Crank otherwise, and then tightening passenger side Cam Adjusters. I realize with a brand new Timing Chain the procedure would be the standard straightforward one we all know. But when there's the "play" I'm referring to, I going to try this method to see if the Cam Tools will line up after making some revolutions on the Crank with the torque of the Cams against the Valve Springs stretching the chain slightly as it would much more aggressively in-situ. I thinking at least this way, when I rotate to 40*, the Tools will line up properly as compared to my presently having to rotate past 40* to get the Tools lined up.
Are you turning strictly clockwise with plugs out(recommended) or counter to get to 40?
If you reverse counter-clockwise to try to get back to 40, you have to overshoot and return clockwise with tension to be right. If the engine was running proper, you should only be able to lock the tool at 40 for both removal and install.
yes, you need 2 full rotations at the crank to turn the adjusters once (if oem and/or proper re-install, adjuster part numbers will face upwards).
I only set up the Timing after turning Clockwise several revolutions without Spark plugs to ensure there's no binding? Then, after turning clockwise 720*, I notice that I have to turn the Crank slightly past 40* (ie36*) in order to get the tools set back in place, so it seems there is certain amount of slack in the timing chain. It's now been several months since I put the Heads back on (back in April/May) but I remember having to pull up some of the Timing Chain Rail/Sliders in order to drive in the dowels located at the base of the Heads? I remember wondering why it seemed I could pull it out several inches and when I pushed it back in it seemingly "locked" in place as compared to "wandering" if you know what I mean? Only after viewing photos of the M156 Engine being hung upside down online did I come to realize that basically it is only the Chain Tensioner Slide Rail that is unconnected at the bottom side and that the other three are hanging from pins or nubs at the bottom side!! I'm concerned that I might have possibly popped one loose from the bottom nubs when installing the Heads? IIRC, I think I remember fiddling with the Passenger Side Upper Rail as I remember using a scratch awl to initially determine where the hole was after lifting and lowering it to find the hole!!! Yikes! That might explain the lack of Chain tension causing the 4-5* of slack as well as explain why the car ran like s_ _ _ when I started it up the first time misfiring on 6 cylinders!!! So I'll Have to loosen the Chain Tensioner (hopefully without having to drain the oil!), pull the Cam Adjusters and remove the Cam Gears and dowels for the slide rails to determine which ones are loose/unconnected at the bottom. I have an iPad boroscope that'll perhaps be useful to determine whether they are connected to their nubs at the bottom as I can't see if dowels are used at the bottom end?
If if one of the Slide rails are popped off, is it possible to pop them back on without having to pull the whole Timing Case off??? What a beating if that's the case!!!
I notice that I have to turn the Crank slightly past 40* (ie36*) in order to get the tools set back in place
If you are looking at the markings properly it means it's not timed properly. With the tools installed and CA bolts loose turn the crank CCW back to 40° before you snug them back up.
09-12-2015, 11:25 AM
