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Consider the improvement that the ROW airboxes offer, and how the improvement in design (less obstruction) yields results.
Why is it so hard to imagine that further improving the airflow will yield further gains?
Air still has to flow into the box, and flow will be increased if there is no obstruction. If you can see it, it will have influence the flow. No different than how people just post pictures of the difference between the ROW and standard air box, and we all just nod our heads in agreement and say 'yes i can see the difference'.
I have no stake in the game, do not even have ROW boxes. I am just confused how people accept one thing but not another, when both modifications are improving the same thing -> air flow.
I'm with you on this. I can see the possibility of some very unhelpful turbulence getting eliminated with this spacer. Very exciting development, it'll all shake out shortly.
Illuminati are everywhere, even in these airbox spacers and dyno results.... some people have just made up their minds, and can't accept the truth! WAKE UP!
E55K, Black on Black. C63, Black on Black. SRT-10 NightRunner 363of400
Originally Posted by Illuminati41
Confirmed,
Illuminati are everywhere, even in these airbox spacers and dyno results.... some people have just made up their minds, and can't accept the truth! WAKE UP!
Unfortunately, it's been another minute or two since I was in high school. How long did it take you to set up the account....
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
The "airbox" that we're referring to here is nothign more than an air filter housing. The actual airbox - where the black magic happens and volume, intake runner lenghts, trumpet sizes, distances and resonanace frequencies matter - is under the engine cover and is optimized using computational fluid dynamics. The air filter housing is just that - and seeing as the inlet port size (the snorkel size from the front of the car) and the outlet port size (at the MAF) are unchanged, the spacers do absolutely nothing. Imagine a room with doors at each end. No matter how big you make the room - you can turn it into a concert hall if you wish - it doesn't change the door sizes and the number of people per unit of time that can enter and exit. Unless you increase the velocity of the air with a RAM air intake (or the pressure using forced induction - the only two variables here that would change the mass of air going in), which you can't possibly notice on a dyno seeing as most of them are stationary and you'd need to be moving at 100 mph before anythign of the sort comes into play, it's all wishful thinking.
Any measurable change in power on a dyno in this scenario had to be caused by (a) flow restriction by the air filter element itself, which is a function of the material porosity and surface area and the only variable that can actually produce a difference, (b) other factors like temperature, humidity, engine heat soak or someone letting out a serious fart with lots of methane upwind of the car, or (c) run-to-run varaitions, accuracy and measurement error of the dyno. That's it.
There's no need even for the play-doh as Jason suggested... just get a set of old air filters and completely remove the paper filter in the middle, leaving you only with the rubber gasket surround. You won't ingest any debris or dust on a dyno with the car itself being stationary in an enclosed garage, so just do a run without any possible flow restriction... which can be the only thing responsible for any actual power gain (or loss) here. Even if you have no air filter and/or box at all, you have a throttle body that is much more limiting, then an intake manifold that is more limiting than the TB, and then intake valves that are even more limiting than that. The air filter housing box volume is completely irrelevant.
The "airbox" that we're referring to here is nothign more than an air filter housing. The actual airbox - where the black magic happens and volume, intake runner lenghts, trumpet sizes, distances and resonanace frequencies matter - is under the engine cover and is optimized using computational fluid dynamics. The air filter housing is just that - and seeing as the inlet port size (the snorkel size from the front of the car) and the outlet port size (at the MAF) are unchanged, the spacers do absolutely nothing. Imagine a room with doors at each end. No matter how big you make the room - you can turn it into a concert hall if you wish - it doesn't change the door sizes and the number of people per unit of time that can enter and exit. Unless you increase the velocity of the air with a RAM air intake (or the pressure using forced induction - the only two variables here that would change the mass of air going in), which you can't possibly notice on a dyno seeing as most of them are stationary and you'd need to be moving at 100 mph before anythign of the sort comes into play, it's all wishful thinking.
A fair point tbh and I see where you're coming from.
However, I don't think the gains from this are coming from an increase in air box volume (nor was that ever the intended purpose of the spacers).
Assuming these gains are authentic (and I have no reason to doubt Shardul tbh), then it's most likely because of the reduction in turbulence as the air comes in through the snorkels, which in a sense could-well increase air speed going through the filters
I dunno. My throttle bodies still aren't opening fully, so I can't really say much
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Just stop drinking the kool-aid here. Turbulence and velocity and straight air bull****.
If the intake snorkel were 1/2" from the bottom of the lower airbox, then yeah I can see how raising the filter might help. But air is taking the path of least resistance here, and even at WOT the TBs and airboxes flow way more than what the engine can actually ingest. Size of the airbox makes zero difference - if anything it's size of the filter element that would, and that's not changing here.
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Originally Posted by PACougar
Here's an Uncorrected graph and the graph that's using STD correction. I added in the weather stations temp that's used as part of the correction. As you can see, the before run benefited from the correction because it was a bit warmer. The uncorrected number shows even bigger gains for that very reason. Of course that's why correction factors exist. Dynojet's software does not allow independent correction factors for multiple runs on the same graph, so you can't cheat by having different corrections for two different runs on the same overlay. I hope this helps you understand how a dyno and the software work.
If you look at your own dyno graphs again, you will notice that the "after" run wat at an 8 degree cooler and denser ambient air (and we know nothing about the pressure - which is critical - or humidity levels, let alone heat soak and that the intake had a chance to cool down and thus heat up the incoming air even less than it did during the first run). Now, I am not a pilot (chisridebike here is, so maybe he can chime in on the validity of my assertions), but IIRC all other things being equal, the air density change for every degree in temperature equals to about 125' of altitude - so between the two runs, the second one is equivalent to being conducted at an altitude 1000' lower than the first, which would result in roughly 4% denser air. Now, if you look at the uncorrected peak hp numbers (and the torque difference is even less), you will notice a difference of... wait, I'll let you guess. Right - it's about 4% (OK - it's closer to 5%... but that 1% can definitley be explained by the under-hood temperatures, the dirty air filters during the first run and/or an atmospheric pressure diference between the two runs). I hope this helps you understand how physics and chemistry work.
Show me ALL of the data for the two runs and I'll let you know where the difference came from. And, which particular model of Dynojet is this? Inertial or load type? I've been around dynos for a while... they're not exactly consistent each and every time.
I have my doubts about power across the board and the amount of power gained. Long story short, when we would switch out intakes on mechanical fuel injection and or carbed cars on the track, we had dyno results from longer intake runners and shorter intake runners and the difference in power between them. This is a bit different, but with shorter intake runners we had more high end HP, but gave up low end HP and torque.
On our longer intake runners we gained torque and lost high end HP.
There were always a give and take with either setup. so on certain tracks we would use one over the other to gain and advantage on that track.
This seems to be just a spacer to gain air space, flow and or intake length or all 3. But to gain right across the board and the amount of gain to me is a bit suspect.
But I cannot dismiss it 100 percent either knowing what we have done in the past.
Not having forced induction, you have no inertia. Just natural flow. How would Mercedes have missed this? Is this less or more efficient because with the amount of gains being told, this would be more efficient and AMG and Mercedes would have done the testing having world class flow benches and graphs, charts and flow characteristics all done, done again and redone to optimize their motors.
ROW Airbox and AFE Pro Dry filters are the best intake. A spacer will not do anything since the AFE filter side profile is already less and does not restrict the airflow like the stock filter.
Not to mention ROW airboxes come with brand new MAF sensors so it's preventative maintenance, 2 birds, one stone.
So I ordered these and will also get a Dyno at the same place. Right now the only mods I have is the Eurocharged V5 tune, Eisenmann race exhaust and Wavetrac LSD on an Edition 1. I have the ROW airbox with me but not installed yet. I returned the AFE Filters as the spacers already have filters.
How do you guys recommend I do the dyno? Should I write down all the measurements such as; correction factor, humidity, engine temps, air temp and oil temps before I dyno and then try to dyno when those numbers are about the same again? What other metrics should I be looking at? Skratch77 had some tips that I am also gonna see about.
Last edited by wikiwiki; 08-21-2016 at 12:13 AM.
Reason: Added in AFE filter part.
So I ordered these and will also get a Dyno at the same place. Right now the only mods I have is the Eurocharged V5 tune, Eisenmann race exhaust and Wavetrac LSD on an Edition 1. I have the ROW airbox with me but not installed yet. I returned the AFE Filters as the spacers already have filters.
How do you guys recommend I do the dyno? Should I write down all the measurements such as; correction factor, humidity, engine temps, air temp and oil temps before I dyno and then try to dyno when those numbers are about the same again? What other metrics should I be looking at? Skratch77 had some tips that I am also gonna see about.
The spacers should take a few minutes to fit. Run the car on the dyno before you fit them to get a baseline.
Then fit the spacers and run again. In that short time, the environmental conditions such should not have changed.
08-18-2016, 05:29 PM
