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E85 fuel in an AMG?

 
Old 11-22-2016, 12:51 PM
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Old 11-22-2016, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Diabolis View Post
First of all, I can't find anythign about their "flex fuel" kit on their site... so please point me in the right direction. Second, fuel injectors and pump can only move a certain quantity of fuel per unit time. They may be good for 550 hp when you're squirting in gas. If they are squirting in E85 which has ~25% less energy per unit volume than gas at the same temperature, they would be good for 410 hp at the most... so yeah, they would require replacement. If they are squirting in water, they would be good for 0 hp.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w204/643402-black-friday-ec-version-6-info.html

The first post by eurocharge talks about it. It was also discussed first in the v6 wish list post. I also contacted Adam at eurocharge atx via email with questions about it. Here is the deal like all you have said it requires more fuel to maintain proper air fuel ratios this is what the flex fuel controllers do. Eurocharge has extensively tested it on our cars and they respond great to e85 with the controller. Like most have said manufacturers recommend 10 15 what ever. This is due to the fact that with out a proper flex fuel kit or tuning your cars a/f ratio would be way off and engine damage would occur. This is due to the computer thinking it still has regular gas and not increasing the fuel amount being delivered. As far as the fuel system being able to handle it. They have to put the propor components to handle ethanol already since most all gas contains it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure they don't have rubber hoses and hardware that can only handle 10 percent then ones that can handle 50 then ones that can handle 85. It can either handle ethanol or it can't. Now in regards to long term engine damage i don't know about that. What I will say is if people don't think adding a tune or headers or supercharger doesn't increase the wear on components they are lying to themselves. It's hard for me to believe that other car ma cacturers can handle e85 but an Amg can't. Evo, sti, mazdaspeed, m series, 335i to say a few all run it google it. My buddy ran e85 in his wrx for 65,000 miles when he finally sold it and it ran flawlessly. I personally don't think that motor is better then a handbuilt Amg. Now on another thought flex fuel designed vehicles they are out there. Per the manufacturer can put either gas or e85 in it. Those vehicles have the same type of vehicle you can buy same motor but none flex fuel gas only. Do you really believe the internal motor or any of those parts are any different. And regardless most have said e85 is corrosive and damaging so it wouldn't matter anyways. Those manufactures warranty those vehicles the same as the rest. Why if e85 is so damaging? I understand what most have posted on the science behind it. I like to look at real world examples and there are a ton of them proving e85 can be used. How long that is the ??
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Old 11-22-2016, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Diabolis View Post
First of all, I can't find anythign about their "flex fuel" kit on their site... so please point me in the right direction. Second, fuel injectors and pump can only move a certain quantity of fuel per unit time. They may be good for 550 hp when you're squirting in gas. If they are squirting in E85 which has ~25% less energy per unit volume than gas at the same temperature, they would be good for 410 hp at the most... so yeah, they would require replacement. If they are squirting in water, they would be good for 0 hp.
I ran E85 in my evo for 3 years never had a problem, stock lines, stock tank, I am pretty sure we can at least run a blend (E40) in these cars with a flex fuel kit.
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AMGonFire View Post
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w204/643402-black-friday-ec-version-6-info.html

The first post by eurocharge talks about it. It was also discussed first in the v6 wish list post. I also contacted Adam at eurocharge atx via email with questions about it. Here is the deal like all you have said it requires more fuel to maintain proper air fuel ratios this is what the flex fuel controllers do. Eurocharge has extensively tested it on our cars and they respond great to e85 with the controller. Like most have said manufacturers recommend 10 15 what ever. This is due to the fact that with out a proper flex fuel kit or tuning your cars a/f ratio would be way off and engine damage would occur. This is due to the computer thinking it still has regular gas and not increasing the fuel amount being delivered. As far as the fuel system being able to handle it. They have to put the propor components to handle ethanol already since most all gas contains it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure they don't have rubber hoses and hardware that can only handle 10 percent then ones that can handle 50 then ones that can handle 85. It can either handle ethanol or it can't. Now in regards to long term engine damage i don't know about that. What I will say is if people don't think adding a tune or headers or supercharger doesn't increase the wear on components they are lying to themselves. It's hard for me to believe that other car ma cacturers can handle e85 but an Amg can't. Evo, sti, mazdaspeed, m series, 335i to say a few all run it google it. My buddy ran e85 in his wrx for 65,000 miles when he finally sold it and it ran flawlessly. I personally don't think that motor is better then a handbuilt Amg. Now on another thought flex fuel designed vehicles they are out there. Per the manufacturer can put either gas or e85 in it. Those vehicles have the same type of vehicle you can buy same motor but none flex fuel gas only. Do you really believe the internal motor or any of those parts are any different. And regardless most have said e85 is corrosive and damaging so it wouldn't matter anyways. Those manufactures warranty those vehicles the same as the rest. Why if e85 is so damaging? I understand what most have posted on the science behind it. I like to look at real world examples and there are a ton of them proving e85 can be used. How long that is the ??
Originally Posted by s.e.a.n. View Post
I ran E85 in my evo for 3 years never had a problem, stock lines, stock tank, I am pretty sure we can at least run a blend (E40) in these cars with a flex fuel kit.
That first post briefly mentions a tune for running E85, but doesn't say much else. The tune is the easiest part of the equation - you can advance the timing a lot with ethanol - but this doesn't address a number of other much more significant issues.

As for the rest of your comments, I am afraid you're either projecting here or are just plain confused. I never said anything about whether the C63 will fail after 1 mile on E85 or whether it will run for 1,000,000 miles. All I said was that *IF* the OEM injectors are able to squirt enough gas for "up to 550 hp", it does not necessarily follow that the same injectors can squirt enough E85 for the same engine to produce 550 hp, because you need to squirt in 25% more E85 than you do gas to achieve the same power output. If the person - whoever it is - that claimed that the injectors are good up to 550 hp meant 550 hp on E85, then with gasoline they should be good up to 680 hp.

And, I also stated that the M156 mill is not the best motor from a design standpoint to make the best use out of high octane fuels, but I never said anythign about its suitability to run either ethanol, E85 or Q16 / C16 race gas.

As for what you're actually claiming now... I don't even want to get into that particular debate, but for the record, just because something will work with a little bit of a certain substance, it does not mean that it will work with a lot of that same substance. Back in 1985, some cheap Austrian wine makers added a little bit of antifreeze to speed up the fermentation and add some body to the wine. No one ever died or even got sick as a direct result of ingesting said small quanitiy of antifreeze, and to this day I might still use the "taste test" to figure out whether something that dripped from a car is water, oil or antifreeze... but if I were to drink a pint of antifreeze, I'd almost certainly die. Ethanol is not a universal panacea and does not work in all instances and applications. There are cars where it won't damage anything and others where it will damage stuff, and there are engines where it can offer a significant performance improvement and there are others where it won't. My grandfather's old 300D ran great on Jet A (Kerosene) with a little bit of ATF or two-stroke oil added in, or for that matter on cooking oil (which made it smell like french fries)... but I wouldn't use that in my ML even though it may actually run on it.
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:31 PM
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The antifreeze thing doesn't apply but ok. I'm repeating what eurocharged said about the fuel system being able to support e85 with no additional changing out. They said 550 not me. Point is this you have no idea if it's good or bad or if it will work. You said it yourself. Eurocharged who is a reputable company on here says it does and will. It would be bad pr for them if they said all this and running the e85 map blew motors. Seeing so many other cars running this with great results and no signs of negatives. I will give it a go and I'll post my dyno. I bet more will jump
on board if this is everything they say it is.
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:24 PM
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(Diabolis) That was a lot of words. I'm not really tracking sixty percent of what you wrote though.
If a fuel system can handle Ethanol, your injectors are big enough and your fuel pump has enough capacity.. Done deal.
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Old 11-23-2016, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by compaddict View Post
(Diabolis) That was a lot of words. I'm not really tracking sixty percent of what you wrote though.
If a fuel system can handle Ethanol, your injectors are big enough and your fuel pump has enough capacity.. Done deal.
...Many very big ifs...
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Old 11-23-2016, 10:32 PM
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:44 AM
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While we are on a very good topic.... All the very fast N/A C63s like Dads, Dodger, Mthis etc. What fuel were they running when they did those times?
It says 100 Octane, but do you think they added any additives?
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Old 11-24-2016, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by compaddict View Post
(Diabolis) That was a lot of words. I'm not really tracking sixty percent of what you wrote though.
If a fuel system can handle Ethanol, your injectors are big enough and your fuel pump has enough capacity.. Done deal.
I don't understand the logic in this. "Big enough" (meaning capable of delivering enough fuel) and "compatible with" are 2 different things. Diabolis is saying the fuel system can't deliver enough fuel (liquid) to run e85. Sure the injectors and pump and hardware might be compatible with ethanol meaning that they won't fail in the presence of ethanol. That's doesn't mean they can deliver enough e85 to run. Example: a shot glass and a pitcher might both me made of glass, but that doesn't mean the shot glass gives me enough water to run a marathon. Both hold the water and are fine but the capacity to delivery the liquid is not. So it's not what i would call a "done deal." I don't know enough about the EC ethanol setup to comment. I know what they claim and have no reason to doubt it, but I don't know what mix of ethanol they are using either. Could be e40. That would make more sense to me. But I don't know enough about the capability of our fuel system or their blend of ethanol.
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Old 11-24-2016, 09:35 AM
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I tried e85 with out a tune. I did 10% ethanol with 98oct Aussie fuel. And with out a tune it doesn't work. Car still runs fine, but ecu pulls timing. Car runs cooler and ecu adds fuel but doesn't make more power.
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Old 11-24-2016, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by RNS-11Z View Post
I tried e85 with out a tune. I did 10% ethanol with 98oct Aussie fuel. And with out a tune it doesn't work. Car still runs fine, but ecu pulls timing. Car runs cooler and ecu adds fuel but doesn't make more power.
I am still chuckling at this debate. Why does it matter if they run on E85? If you can afford these cars is gas really the issue unless E85 is all you can access. Gas is the cheapest thing about operating these cars in my view.
Up here in BC getting gas without 10% alcohol is pretty difficult on a day to day basis. We get 91 and 94 octane with 10%.
If 481 or 507 HP ain't enough I got no comment.
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Old 11-24-2016, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex.currie44 View Post
I am still chuckling at this debate. Why does it matter if they run on E85? If you can afford these cars is gas really the issue unless E85 is all you can access. Gas is the cheapest thing about operating these cars in my view.
Up here in BC getting gas without 10% alcohol is pretty difficult on a day to day basis. We get 91 and 94 octane with 10%.
If 481 or 507 HP ain't enough I got no comment.
People want the power that usually comes with e85. And for many, myself included, 507 hp is not enough. It gets addicting. You need a bigger and bigger hit.
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Old 11-24-2016, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisridebike8 View Post
People want the power that usually comes with e85. And for many, myself included, 507 hp is not enough. It gets addicting. You need a bigger and bigger hit.
I am confused by your reply.
Ounce for ounce E85 has less power than straight 91 Octane gas.
The theory is that ethanol burns to CO2 and water so that reduces other GHGs. I think what you are saying is you need to increase fuel flow to maintain the power. It is not coming from the fuel.
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Old 11-24-2016, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex.currie44 View Post
I am confused by your reply.
Ounce for ounce E85 has less power than straight 91 Octane gas.
The theory is that ethanol burns to CO2 and water so that reduces other GHGs. I think what you are saying is you need to increase fuel flow to maintain the power. It is not coming from the fuel.
What I'm meaning to say is, if you have an engine that can supply enough e85 to reach it's full potenial on e85, it will make more power than when it runs on 93 octane. It will burn significantly more e85 than 93 octane, but it will make more power. That assumes that the tune is optomized and the fuel system can supply enough e85. This is why guys with heavily modded cars, especially forced induction cars, that have much more capable fuel systems (pumps and injectors) can utilize e85. So yes, you are correct in saying you need more e85 vs 93 octane to maintain the same power level.

Can our fuel system deliver enough straight e85 to make more power with a tune? Diabolis says no. Can it deliver enough e40 or some other lower blend? I think eurocharged is saying yes which is why they are claiming 30-40 whp more with their ethanol system.
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Old 11-24-2016, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisridebike8 View Post
People want the power that usually comes with e85. And for many, myself included, 507 hp is not enough. It gets addicting. You need a bigger and bigger hit.
E85 does not provide any boost in power. It has a higher octane rating, so you MAY be able to take use a more aggressive tune, which would make more power. E85 does NOTHING on its own.
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Old 11-24-2016, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex.currie44 View Post
I am confused by your reply.
Ounce for ounce E85 has less power than straight 91 Octane gas.
The theory is that ethanol burns to CO2 and water so that reduces other GHGs. I think what you are saying is you need to increase fuel flow to maintain the power. It is not coming from the fuel.
Actually, it isn't for the combustion byproducts that ethanol is preferred - it's theoretically due to the source of the fuel - the crop that ethanol is derived from consumes CO2 when grown, so the net carbon footprint is supposedly smaller.

However, there are studies that are calling this into question, given the CO2 generated in the planting, growing, harvesting and transporting of the crop that the benefits, if any, are unclear. Europe has significantly scaled back its ethanol mandates given recent evidence. However, the farm lobby in NA is very strong, and we're still charging ahead with this flawed fuel.
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Old 11-24-2016, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RNS-11Z View Post
I tried e85 with out a tune. I did 10% ethanol with 98oct Aussie fuel. And with out a tune it doesn't work. Car still runs fine, but ecu pulls timing. Car runs cooler and ecu adds fuel but doesn't make more power.
This is the truth
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Old 11-24-2016, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by looney100 View Post
E85 does not provide any boost in power. It has a higher octane rating, so you MAY be able to take use a more aggressive tune, which would make more power. E85 does NOTHING on its own.
If you read my following post, you will see how I elaborated on having a tune to take advantage of e85.
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Old 11-25-2016, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by looney100 View Post
Actually, it isn't for the combustion byproducts that ethanol is preferred - it's theoretically due to the source of the fuel - the crop that ethanol is derived from consumes CO2 when grown, so the net carbon footprint is supposedly smaller.

However, there are studies that are calling this into question, given the CO2 generated in the planting, growing, harvesting and transporting of the crop that the benefits, if any, are unclear. Europe has significantly scaled back its ethanol mandates given recent evidence. However, the farm lobby in NA is very strong, and we're still charging ahead with this flawed fuel.
^ This.
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Old 11-25-2016, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisridebike8 View Post
What I'm meaning to say is, if you have an engine that can supply enough e85 to reach it's full potenial on e85, it will make more power than when it runs on 93 octane. It will burn significantly more e85 than 93 octane, but it will make more power. That assumes that the tune is optomized and the fuel system can supply enough e85. This is why guys with heavily modded cars, especially forced induction cars, that have much more capable fuel systems (pumps and injectors) can utilize e85. So yes, you are correct in saying you need more e85 vs 93 octane to maintain the same power level.

Can our fuel system deliver enough straight e85 to make more power with a tune? Diabolis says no. Can it deliver enough e40 or some other lower blend? I think eurocharged is saying yes which is why they are claiming 30-40 whp more with their ethanol system.
This is also true... but the corollary is that if you have a tune that is able to take advantage of a 100 octane fuel, all other things being equal you'll get more power running race gas with the same octane rating as you would with E85. As chrisridebike8 suggested above, ethanol blends can be used to produce more power as ethanol is essentially an oxygenating agent. VP100 - http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp-100-fuel or the newer VP101 (halfway down in http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp-drag-racing) - is a perfect example of the power gains that can be achieved with a relatively low ethanol content (the exact percentage is not listed but it is below 10%) and race gas blend. VP claims up to 14% more power on some turbocharged engines over 91 octane gas... but you will definitely need a tune. And, again, it doesn't come without problems... there's an informative article to read at http://www.stangtv.com/tech-stories/...genated-fuels/ that addresses both the benefits and potential shortfalls.
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Old 11-25-2016, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Diabolis View Post
This is also true... but the corollary is that if you have a tune that is able to take advantage of a 100 octane fuel, all other things being equal you'll get more power running race gas with the same octane rating as you would with E85. As chrisridebike8 suggested above, ethanol blends can be used to produce more power as ethanol is essentially an oxygenating agent. VP100 - http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp-100-fuel or the newer VP101 (halfway down in http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp-drag-racing) - is a perfect example of the power gains that can be achieved with a relatively low ethanol content (the exact percentage is not listed but it is below 10%) and race gas blend. VP claims up to 14% more power on some turbocharged engines over 91 octane gas... but you will definitely need a tune. And, again, it doesn't come without problems... there's an informative article to read at http://www.stangtv.com/tech-stories/...genated-fuels/ that addresses both the benefits and potential shortfalls.

i I feel like you don't know what you are talking about. You can utilize the same power from e85 as you can race gas in fact e85 is typically 105 octane. The difference is it requires more fuel to supply the same power just the way it works but power is the same due to being able to take advantage of the octane rating. It has everything to do with the octane. The reason why e85 is attractive over race gas is e85 can be run on a regular basis due to it being at least for me under 2 bucks a gallon vs 6 to 7 for race gas and I get the same benefits and power on a daily basis.
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Old 11-25-2016, 10:46 AM
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Lots of really wrong information here.
And it's getting worse, not better.
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Old 11-25-2016, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AMGonFire View Post
i I feel like you don't know what you are talking about.

<lots of bleating removed>
That happens because (a) I really can't further simplify things down to your level, and (b) what you are saying is both contradictory and wrong.
Originally Posted by compaddict View Post
Lots of really wrong information here.
And it's getting worse, not better.
Completely agreed with you here... just keep in mind that all of the wrong information was posted by you and AMGonFire. If you don't want it to get worse, the two of you need to stop - otherwise we're going to end up with an even bigger mess.
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Old 11-25-2016, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Diabolis View Post
That happens because (a) I really can't further simplify things down to your level, and (b) what you are saying is both contradictory and wrong.


Completely agreed with you here... just keep in mind that all of the wrong information was posted by you and AMGonFire. If you don't want it to get worse, the two of you need to stop - otherwise we're going to end up with an even bigger mess.
😆👍🏻 Your confused it's ok nothing I said is contradictory or wrong I don't think you understand how e85 works. You seem to think race gas will net more results compared to e85 because it has less ethanol. It's all about the octane I don't think you understand that. I'm not here to get in an argument with anyone on these forums. You think your right that's fine no need to insult me.

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