Superflower Dyno w/ v6 eurotune and mods
05-05-2017, 03:13 PM
#26
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No that's just wrong sorry. At his peak power at 6000rpm his AFR is 12.3. Too rich. Go look at YOUR AFR's and I guarantee you they're 1.5 higher at peak power. And yes that makes a huge difference. This stuff is all in books and online and easily verifiable.
At 7k rpm I'm at 13.4. That's where it should be. At WOT mine starts rich in the lower rpms and then progressively leans out. 14.7 is normal for idle or cruising, never under load.
At 7k rpm I'm at 13.4. That's where it should be. At WOT mine starts rich in the lower rpms and then progressively leans out. 14.7 is normal for idle or cruising, never under load.
his car is either knocking and pulling timing/ adding fuel or the dyno is putting a lot load on the engine.
I would not run 13.4 at that high rpm not worth the added heat and risk.especially if you track the car
05-05-2017, 03:16 PM
#27
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2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Maybe EC will chime in here and help settle this. As another data point, I was told by Jerry that I was dead-on. Also depends on fuel and timing advance I guess, but 12's on our cars is certainly not ideal, that's more for max safety IMO.
If you take out your cats it will show LEANER as you have less restriction. Engine is nothing but an air pump.
And there's no timing being pulled above, it's dead steady on zero. Something is off.
If you take out your cats it will show LEANER as you have less restriction. Engine is nothing but an air pump.
And there's no timing being pulled above, it's dead steady on zero. Something is off.
Last edited by BLKROKT; 05-05-2017 at 03:20 PM.
05-05-2017, 03:38 PM
#28
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Maybe EC will chime in here and help settle this. As another data point, I was told by Jerry that I was dead-on. Also depends on fuel and timing advance I guess, but 12's on our cars is certainly not ideal, that's more for max safety IMO.
If you take out your cats it will show LEANER as you have less restriction. Engine is nothing but an air pump.
And there's no timing being pulled above, it's dead steady on zero. Something is off.
If you take out your cats it will show LEANER as you have less restriction. Engine is nothing but an air pump.
And there's no timing being pulled above, it's dead steady on zero. Something is off.
I agree 12s is not ideal and on the safe side but should not account for 65-75whp
also the ecu will hit it's target air fuel and stay there.i ment a tail sniffer on a catted car will show leaner at the tail vs a wide band before the cats.
05-05-2017, 04:47 PM
#30
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2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Lol there's no boost here. We're talking about just a headers and tune C63. In that case then 12's is pig rich.
Boosted car? Hell I liked to see mid-to-high 11's on my DSM's and 996TT on high boost IIRC. Boost changes everything.
Boosted car? Hell I liked to see mid-to-high 11's on my DSM's and 996TT on high boost IIRC. Boost changes everything.
05-05-2017, 05:35 PM
#31
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That's what I was hoping for. I read somewhere that you add 140 to a mustang dyno for your bhp and then multiply by 0.85 for whp on a typical dyno jet. Which puts me around 463whp. Was hoping I was getting close to that elusive 500whp. Again it's my first dyno run and wish I had done a baseline.
I did make sure the valves were open. S+ with traction control off. They did mention that they never had a c63 roll through there. Which is odd because motor trend does "modding" version of myth busters on YouTube there. It's westech performance group if anyone is interested. I set an appointment up before I found out their facility is somewhat well known in the American muscle scene. They go into a lot of detail about running rich can affect power as much as 50+. So I thought they knew their ****. They looked over AFR and was like with bolt ons and stock engine this looks about right. Not too rich or lean. Suggested I look into NOS when the dude saw me look at my graph in disbelief. I think imma stay as natural as a natural aspirated car can be until I drop a supercharger in there down the line.
I did make sure the valves were open. S+ with traction control off. They did mention that they never had a c63 roll through there. Which is odd because motor trend does "modding" version of myth busters on YouTube there. It's westech performance group if anyone is interested. I set an appointment up before I found out their facility is somewhat well known in the American muscle scene. They go into a lot of detail about running rich can affect power as much as 50+. So I thought they knew their ****. They looked over AFR and was like with bolt ons and stock engine this looks about right. Not too rich or lean. Suggested I look into NOS when the dude saw me look at my graph in disbelief. I think imma stay as natural as a natural aspirated car can be until I drop a supercharger in there down the line.
05-05-2017, 06:43 PM
#32
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TC was off but I'm gonna sound like an idiot
there is a dyno mode? Westech just called me and made plans to do a stock dyno run next week just to keep variables the same while I look around my area for a dynojet. It was one session maybe 6-7 pulls?
05-05-2017, 08:57 PM
#33
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Maybe EC will chime in here and help settle this. As another data point, I was told by Jerry that I was dead-on. Also depends on fuel and timing advance I guess, but 12's on our cars is certainly not ideal, that's more for max safety IMO.
If you take out your cats it will show LEANER as you have less restriction. Engine is nothing but an air pump.
And there's no timing being pulled above, it's dead steady on zero. Something is off.
If you take out your cats it will show LEANER as you have less restriction. Engine is nothing but an air pump.
And there's no timing being pulled above, it's dead steady on zero. Something is off.
Regardless, I hope things get sorted out no matter what is causing the issue.
As for dyno mode:
Last edited by BadCompany; 05-05-2017 at 09:02 PM. Reason: added link
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JQuala (05-07-2017)
05-05-2017, 10:35 PM
#34
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2012 c63 AMG
yea, seems like you should be like mine 2012 P31 package
ARH Headers, with cats and remus exhaust with a V5 tune and ROW boxes gave me 485whp on a mustang dyno.....
so what that, about 570 ish at the crank? give or take
ARH Headers, with cats and remus exhaust with a V5 tune and ROW boxes gave me 485whp on a mustang dyno.....
so what that, about 570 ish at the crank? give or take
05-06-2017, 03:58 AM
#35
Your car is making all the torque until 4500, and our car peak torque is around 5k. Are you sure the exaust valve where fully open?
Afr seems seems to be on the safe side not rich like someone says.
Afr seems seems to be on the safe side not rich like someone says.
05-06-2017, 07:29 AM
#36
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05-06-2017, 11:18 AM
#37
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for those saying the car is NOT running rich, have you ever owned a turbo car?
I dont know how anyone can say that afr is not rich for a n/a motor up top after the car gets past 5442rpms
I dont know how anyone can say that afr is not rich for a n/a motor up top after the car gets past 5442rpms
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BLKROKT (05-06-2017)
05-06-2017, 11:33 AM
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05-06-2017, 01:23 PM
#39
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93' 500E, 95' Corolla
OP - Car is ****NOT**** running that rich... a smidge rich way up top.... by NO MEANS is it "pig rich". I also see no indication of timing advance in any of the documentation OP provided, so I don't know why the "no advance" is coming up... Car seems to be running pretty well.. I'm gonna say that your intake manifold is probably leaking... check that first. PM me if you want some quick tips on how do check it quickly in your driveway. Also "Dyno Mode" is important, unless you're on an AWD linked dyno. PM me also if you need instructions on how to get it into dyno mode.
No chance the .5 point the car is rich is causing more than 10whp of power loss...
Sorry not sorry - but if you think this car is running pig rich, you have no idea what you are talking about. LOL
Thanks
Dave
No chance the .5 point the car is rich is causing more than 10whp of power loss...
Sorry not sorry - but if you think this car is running pig rich, you have no idea what you are talking about. LOL
Thanks
Dave
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JQuala (05-07-2017)
05-06-2017, 01:33 PM
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93' 500E, 95' Corolla
This is 5 different M156's, ranging from a Stock 507 (416whp), to a E85 FBO C63 (525whp). You can see how the AFR's range...
Last edited by DavesMeanE's; 05-06-2017 at 01:35 PM. Reason: adding info
05-06-2017, 01:38 PM
#41
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So was Jerry lying when he told me that my 13.4 at WOT at the top of the rpm range was perfect? And I've been running my car HARD for over 2yrs like this? 
I know this has been discussed before a few times here, and most of us were in the high 12's to low 13's. OP here is at 11.6 AFR whereas I'm at about 13.4 at the same RPM. That's a big difference, even compared to your charts, no?
I'm totally prepared to be wrong here and learn something, but your statement goes against everything I've heard - including practical experience within this forum and from Jerry directly. AND, not for nothing, the Eurocharged posts in #16 and #18 above seem to also agree that the car is running rich.
I know this has been discussed before a few times here, and most of us were in the high 12's to low 13's. OP here is at 11.6 AFR whereas I'm at about 13.4 at the same RPM. That's a big difference, even compared to your charts, no?
I'm totally prepared to be wrong here and learn something, but your statement goes against everything I've heard - including practical experience within this forum and from Jerry directly. AND, not for nothing, the Eurocharged posts in #16 and #18 above seem to also agree that the car is running rich.
Last edited by BLKROKT; 05-06-2017 at 02:13 PM.
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DrLove (07-03-2017)
05-06-2017, 01:57 PM
#42
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2019 911 GTS / 2016 X3 / 2015 E63s / 1993 RX-7
Every car is different obviously but most of the cars I have seen being tuned aimed for 12.5-12.9.
For boosted applications (like my Subaru or RX-7) in the high 11s.
05-06-2017, 02:08 PM
#43
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Well then if that's true then that's not great. Kind of defeats the purpose of even monitoring it if my "safe" expectations were just off to begin with. I'll put in a call to Jerry on Monday to figure this out, although I should have noted that my "Race" tune for use on 100-octane (which is basically what I run all the time) might be extra leaned out on the top end, although the "Street" file doesn't read any differently IIRC. Anyway, it's days like this when I'm happy to have the P31 internals.... knock on wood.
05-06-2017, 02:44 PM
#44
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OP - Car is ****NOT**** running that rich... a smidge rich way up top.... by NO MEANS is it "pig rich". I also see no indication of timing advance in any of the documentation OP provided, so I don't know why the "no advance" is coming up... Car seems to be running pretty well.. I'm gonna say that your intake manifold is probably leaking... check that first. PM me if you want some quick tips on how do check it quickly in your driveway. Also "Dyno Mode" is important, unless you're on an AWD linked dyno. PM me also if you need instructions on how to get it into dyno mode.
No chance the .5 point the car is rich is causing more than 10whp of power loss...
Sorry not sorry - but if you think this car is running pig rich, you have no idea what you are talking about. LOL
Thanks
Dave
No chance the .5 point the car is rich is causing more than 10whp of power loss...
Sorry not sorry - but if you think this car is running pig rich, you have no idea what you are talking about. LOL
Thanks
Dave
Please post what Jerry says about target afrs. I always like to learn more.
05-07-2017, 12:53 AM
#45
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Yea I'm pretty sure I hit on(open valves) and heard the car drop an October while idling. The technician could have accidentally switched it to auto? What was odd was that it always felt like it was at WOT for a second before the pull was done.
05-07-2017, 01:08 AM
#46
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maybe I missed it, but what gear was the dyno run done in?
05-07-2017, 09:05 AM
#47
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Am I reading the log correctly....0 timing advance throughout...? If so, that's probably got more to do with the problem than the AFR. Sure NA motors product more power on the leaner side, but I've never experienced it to be a substantial difference in power when going from say....mid 12s to low 13s. I'd agree with Dave that it's probably worth 10whp at best. Interesting to see the outcome of how this gets solved.
Damn, losing over 120wtq from ~4500rpm to ~7000rpm can't be nice. Normally I notice the drop to be around 70wtq on most cars with headers + tune. Approx 50wtq to play for IMO....somewhere. Fingers crossed they find it. He's at around 350wtq at 6000rpm making 400whp. with 410wtq he'd be at just under 470whp....pretty much what's expected. I wonder if it's a dead knock sensor or something
Oh and for those of you hurting your neck from the dyno in the first post, I've rotated it here for easier reading:
Damn, losing over 120wtq from ~4500rpm to ~7000rpm can't be nice. Normally I notice the drop to be around 70wtq on most cars with headers + tune. Approx 50wtq to play for IMO....somewhere. Fingers crossed they find it. He's at around 350wtq at 6000rpm making 400whp. with 410wtq he'd be at just under 470whp....pretty much what's expected. I wonder if it's a dead knock sensor or something
Oh and for those of you hurting your neck from the dyno in the first post, I've rotated it here for easier reading:
05-07-2017, 09:14 AM
#48
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2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Am I reading the log correctly....0 timing advance throughout...? If so, that's probably got more to do with the problem than the AFR. Sure NA motors product more power on the leaner side, but I've never experienced it to be a substantial difference in power when going from say....mid 12s to low 13s. I'd agree with Dave that it's probably worth 10whp at best. Interesting to see the outcome of how this gets solved.
Oh and for those of you hurting your neck from the dyno in the first post, I've rotated it here for easier reading:
Oh and for those of you hurting your neck from the dyno in the first post, I've rotated it here for easier reading:
And here's that chart rotated too.
Last edited by BLKROKT; 05-07-2017 at 09:17 AM.
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05-07-2017, 10:36 AM
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2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
