Help! Reading through this forum is like using WebMD when you're sick.
07-31-2017, 01:59 AM
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1990 BMW 318i
Help! Reading through this forum is like using WebMD when you're sick.
Well hello there, my name is Rob. I'm planning on buying a pre-face lift car, as I don't currently have the money for a newer car. I've found a few 2009-2010 with under 40k miles, and am ready to make the jump. I've loved these cars ever since I rented an E63 AMG back in 2011, and had the best time of my life. I've also got a friend who is about to sell his 2009, and he says he's never had an issue with it. But, of course, I go looking to see what the major issues are, and am hearing "I need to buy a car with an extended warranty, or it's not worth owning because it'll break down." Yadda Yadda. Other than the headbolt issue that I'm going to have to address, are there any other larger issues I should be worried about? I see that there are quite a few people on here that daily their C63, and that's what I'm planning on doing for the next bit, but before I fly out of state to pick up a car, I'd like to know a bit more about overall reliability. Thanks guys, and I can't wait to join in a bit more once I pick one up.
07-31-2017, 10:36 AM
#2
Out Of Control!!
I'd make sure that your dream car aka cream puff was never tuned and even with an extended warrantee, see if you can lease the car as who wants to own one that old without a second job or a wealthy wife!
07-31-2017, 10:39 AM
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1990 BMW 318i
No kidding? They're seriously that unreliable? Damn. I may start looking into different cars then.
07-31-2017, 10:47 AM
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2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
A PFL C63 is NOT the car to get if you're short on cash. At this point they're starting to approach 10yrs on the road, and expensive things start going wrong.
And one other thing, just add $5k to the purchase price as the amount you'll have to put aside for a preemptive headbolt replacement. Unless you like replacing blown engines.
And one other thing, just add $5k to the purchase price as the amount you'll have to put aside for a preemptive headbolt replacement. Unless you like replacing blown engines.
07-31-2017, 11:48 AM
#5
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A PFL C63 is NOT the car to get if you're short on cash. At this point they're starting to approach 10yrs on the road, and expensive things start going wrong.
And one other thing, just add $5k to the purchase price as the amount you'll have to put aside for a preemptive headbolt replacement. Unless you like replacing blown engines.
And one other thing, just add $5k to the purchase price as the amount you'll have to put aside for a preemptive headbolt replacement. Unless you like replacing blown engines.
07-31-2017, 12:00 PM
#6
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Spend the money on a facelift or shop different cars.
07-31-2017, 01:54 PM
#7
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They are very reliable cars. But you will need to address the headbolts issue.
Also, being a performance German sedan, maintenance parts can be a bit more pricey.
If you have your heart set on a C63, you won't be disappointed. Try and see if you can find one that has had the headbolts sorted out already. Make sure the car has a full service history.
Just make sure you set aside some money to carry out the routine maintenance properly.
Also, being a performance German sedan, maintenance parts can be a bit more pricey.
If you have your heart set on a C63, you won't be disappointed. Try and see if you can find one that has had the headbolts sorted out already. Make sure the car has a full service history.
Just make sure you set aside some money to carry out the routine maintenance properly.
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07-31-2017, 01:59 PM
#8
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C63 AMG, P30
Rob, there's one question that will determine whether AMG ownership is suitable for you or not.
Do you work on your cars yourself, or do you take them to the dealer or indy mechanic to have them serviced?
Here's the reason I ask -- the only difference between owning a PFL and FL outside of cosmetic and minor mechanical differences, some better on the PFL some better on the FL, are the head bolts. Is this a service you plan on doing yourself? If so, it's a $1k fix. If not, $5k as blkrokt mentioned is a bit high, I'd budget $3.5k.
Moving passed that, are you able to replace things yourself like a water pump? An old radiator? Pulleys? Brakes? Etc.? If the answer is yes, there's no difference between owning a 40k mileage PFL, or a 40K mileage FL. Mileage on parts is mileage on parts.
Personally, I'd go for a lower mileage PFL car as opposed to a high mileage FL car. Wear is wear. Period. And, if you're able to work on these cars yourself, you'll find that they're actually quite attainable as we tend to be charged AMG tax when talking shop labor.
That being said, if you plan on servicing your car at an indy shop, I'd go for a lower mileage car regardless of what make or model. There's nothing more expensive than having to fix up on old car that's constantly breaking.
Do you work on your cars yourself, or do you take them to the dealer or indy mechanic to have them serviced?
Here's the reason I ask -- the only difference between owning a PFL and FL outside of cosmetic and minor mechanical differences, some better on the PFL some better on the FL, are the head bolts. Is this a service you plan on doing yourself? If so, it's a $1k fix. If not, $5k as blkrokt mentioned is a bit high, I'd budget $3.5k.
Moving passed that, are you able to replace things yourself like a water pump? An old radiator? Pulleys? Brakes? Etc.? If the answer is yes, there's no difference between owning a 40k mileage PFL, or a 40K mileage FL. Mileage on parts is mileage on parts.
Personally, I'd go for a lower mileage PFL car as opposed to a high mileage FL car. Wear is wear. Period. And, if you're able to work on these cars yourself, you'll find that they're actually quite attainable as we tend to be charged AMG tax when talking shop labor.
That being said, if you plan on servicing your car at an indy shop, I'd go for a lower mileage car regardless of what make or model. There's nothing more expensive than having to fix up on old car that's constantly breaking.
07-31-2017, 03:53 PM
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1990 BMW 318i
Rob, there's one question that will determine whether AMG ownership is suitable for you or not.
Do you work on your cars yourself, or do you take them to the dealer or indy mechanic to have them serviced?
Here's the reason I ask -- the only difference between owning a PFL and FL outside of cosmetic and minor mechanical differences, some better on the PFL some better on the FL, are the head bolts. Is this a service you plan on doing yourself? If so, it's a $1k fix. If not, $5k as blkrokt mentioned is a bit high, I'd budget $3.5k.
Moving passed that, are you able to replace things yourself like a water pump? An old radiator? Pulleys? Brakes? Etc.? If the answer is yes, there's no difference between owning a 40k mileage PFL, or a 40K mileage FL. Mileage on parts is mileage on parts.
Personally, I'd go for a lower mileage PFL car as opposed to a high mileage FL car. Wear is wear. Period. And, if you're able to work on these cars yourself, you'll find that they're actually quite attainable as we tend to be charged AMG tax when talking shop labor.
That being said, if you plan on servicing your car at an indy shop, I'd go for a lower mileage car regardless of what make or model. There's nothing more expensive than having to fix up on old car that's constantly breaking.
Do you work on your cars yourself, or do you take them to the dealer or indy mechanic to have them serviced?
Here's the reason I ask -- the only difference between owning a PFL and FL outside of cosmetic and minor mechanical differences, some better on the PFL some better on the FL, are the head bolts. Is this a service you plan on doing yourself? If so, it's a $1k fix. If not, $5k as blkrokt mentioned is a bit high, I'd budget $3.5k.
Moving passed that, are you able to replace things yourself like a water pump? An old radiator? Pulleys? Brakes? Etc.? If the answer is yes, there's no difference between owning a 40k mileage PFL, or a 40K mileage FL. Mileage on parts is mileage on parts.
Personally, I'd go for a lower mileage PFL car as opposed to a high mileage FL car. Wear is wear. Period. And, if you're able to work on these cars yourself, you'll find that they're actually quite attainable as we tend to be charged AMG tax when talking shop labor.
That being said, if you plan on servicing your car at an indy shop, I'd go for a lower mileage car regardless of what make or model. There's nothing more expensive than having to fix up on old car that's constantly breaking.
Thank you guys very much for the heads up, and it's not that I'm breaking the bank by any means, just didn't want to spend over a certain amount on the car itself.
I will be doing most of the minor repairs, and have a certified MB tech friend who will be helping with said headbolts if I'm unable to find a car that hasn't already had them done. I appreciate the feedback!
07-31-2017, 05:03 PM
#10
Super Member
RobGinHD: I'm going to chime in here, but you need to understand that my C63 is a 2012 model that I purchased at the beginning of April, with under 28,000 miles on it.
That means it has both low mileage and is a lot newer than a pre-facelift C63.
In addition, I would not have made the deal, despite a decent price, if the MB dealership had not paid for the best version of an aftermarket warranty that they also sell. I basically said "no" to what I viewed as a good dealership offer on a price difference between my trade and the C63, until they reluctantly threw in the warranty. I did this because I have read in so many places how German cars, and especially sporty and non-new German cars are both complex and costly to repair when something does fail. I wanted to try owning a performance MB, because of the good things I have heard about MB engineering and quality, but I did want to have to put aside thousands of repair dollars. There are much lower cost choices in the world of fun, sporty cars.
Having said all that, I have been very pleased with my C63. There have been zero problems since I bought it 4 months ago, and the performance, quality, and attention to detail have been a daily delight (it's my only car and therefor my daily driver).
But like I said earlier, I turned down a good deal that did not include the aftermarket warranty.
Jim G
That means it has both low mileage and is a lot newer than a pre-facelift C63.
In addition, I would not have made the deal, despite a decent price, if the MB dealership had not paid for the best version of an aftermarket warranty that they also sell. I basically said "no" to what I viewed as a good dealership offer on a price difference between my trade and the C63, until they reluctantly threw in the warranty. I did this because I have read in so many places how German cars, and especially sporty and non-new German cars are both complex and costly to repair when something does fail. I wanted to try owning a performance MB, because of the good things I have heard about MB engineering and quality, but I did want to have to put aside thousands of repair dollars. There are much lower cost choices in the world of fun, sporty cars.
Having said all that, I have been very pleased with my C63. There have been zero problems since I bought it 4 months ago, and the performance, quality, and attention to detail have been a daily delight (it's my only car and therefor my daily driver).
But like I said earlier, I turned down a good deal that did not include the aftermarket warranty.
Jim G
07-31-2017, 05:08 PM
#11
Super Member
Moving passed that, are you able to replace things yourself like a water pump? An old radiator? Pulleys? Brakes? Etc.? If the answer is yes, there's no difference between owning a 40k mileage PFL, or a 40K mileage FL. Mileage on parts is mileage on parts.
Personally, I'd go for a lower mileage PFL car as opposed to a high mileage FL car. Wear is wear. Period. And, if you're able to work on these cars yourself, you'll find that they're actually quite attainable as we tend to be charged AMG tax when talking shop labor.
That being said, if you plan on servicing your car at an indy shop, I'd go for a lower mileage car regardless of what make or model. There's nothing more expensive than having to fix up on old car that's constantly breaking.
07-31-2017, 06:04 PM
#12
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C63 AMG, P30
RobGinHD: I'm going to chime in here, but you need to understand that my C63 is a 2012 model that I purchased at the beginning of April, with under 28,000 miles on it.
That means it has both low mileage and is a lot newer than a pre-facelift C63.
In addition, I would not have made the deal, despite a decent price, if the MB dealership had not paid for the best version of an aftermarket warranty that they also sell. I basically said "no" to what I viewed as a good dealership offer on a price difference between my trade and the C63, until they reluctantly threw in the warranty. I did this because I have read in so many places how German cars, and especially sporty and non-new German cars are both complex and costly to repair when something does fail. I wanted to try owning a performance MB, because of the good things I have heard about MB engineering and quality, but I did want to have to put aside thousands of repair dollars. There are much lower cost choices in the world of fun, sporty cars.
Having said all that, I have been very pleased with my C63. There have been zero problems since I bought it 4 months ago, and the performance, quality, and attention to detail have been a daily delight (it's my only car and therefor my daily driver).
But like I said earlier, I turned down a good deal that did not include the aftermarket warranty.
Jim G
That means it has both low mileage and is a lot newer than a pre-facelift C63.
In addition, I would not have made the deal, despite a decent price, if the MB dealership had not paid for the best version of an aftermarket warranty that they also sell. I basically said "no" to what I viewed as a good dealership offer on a price difference between my trade and the C63, until they reluctantly threw in the warranty. I did this because I have read in so many places how German cars, and especially sporty and non-new German cars are both complex and costly to repair when something does fail. I wanted to try owning a performance MB, because of the good things I have heard about MB engineering and quality, but I did want to have to put aside thousands of repair dollars. There are much lower cost choices in the world of fun, sporty cars.
Having said all that, I have been very pleased with my C63. There have been zero problems since I bought it 4 months ago, and the performance, quality, and attention to detail have been a daily delight (it's my only car and therefor my daily driver).
But like I said earlier, I turned down a good deal that did not include the aftermarket warranty.
Jim G
If you can do your repairs with your Merc tech buddy who'll lend a hand on more complex projects like head bolts, I see no reason why you'd be afraid to own an AMG regardless of year.
That being said, the one thing you need to do if you purchase a PFL is head bolts right off the bat or very soon. Doing that is much easier than replacing an engine when the bolts fail.
07-31-2017, 08:07 PM
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1990 BMW 318i
Bang on response with basically proves my point. If you aren't going to DIY your repairs, either have a warranty or deep pockets.
If you can do your repairs with your Merc tech buddy who'll lend a hand on more complex projects like head bolts, I see no reason why you'd be afraid to own an AMG regardless of year.
That being said, the one thing you need to do if you purchase a PFL is head bolts right off the bat or very soon. Doing that is much easier than replacing an engine when the bolts fail.
If you can do your repairs with your Merc tech buddy who'll lend a hand on more complex projects like head bolts, I see no reason why you'd be afraid to own an AMG regardless of year.
That being said, the one thing you need to do if you purchase a PFL is head bolts right off the bat or very soon. Doing that is much easier than replacing an engine when the bolts fail.
07-31-2017, 08:33 PM
#14
Heavily agree with your thread title. Got to the point where I convinced myself to sell, but I'm glad I changed my mind.. I think. 
I bought my '09 P30 over a year ago with 86K KM, I'm now at 95K KM. Hoping to find a local indy shop here in Calgary to do the preventative maintenance.
I bought my '09 P30 over a year ago with 86K KM, I'm now at 95K KM. Hoping to find a local indy shop here in Calgary to do the preventative maintenance.
07-31-2017, 08:53 PM
#15
Super Member
The observations about needing to do a lot of the maintenance yourself (unless you have a lot of disposable income) is a very good one. But it should also include a caution that maintenance on a Mercedes is more complex, and more impeded, than on a typical American car.
I cannot work on my C63 as I live in a condo building, and working on a car in the underground garage is strictly forbidden. But, despite the fact that I have been working on both cars and motorcycles doing what I class as "simple" maintenance and "minor mods" for almost 50 years, even if it were not forbidden, I suspect I would have trouble with the Mercedes. I say this because of the way that Mercedes (and, I'm told German manufacturers in general) tend to "overengineer" even the simple stuff.
Here's an example: Changing an air filter.
On any American car, and ANY motorcycle I have worked on (which includes American, Japanese, and Italian motorcycles), changing an air filter has always been something that "anybody" could do. At worst, on a Harley, you have the opportunity to strip out 10mm bolts if you are ham-handed or don't know how to use a torque wrench. You rarely even need to look at a service manual - it's just obvious what holds everything together, and if you are at all mechanically inclined, you can get the job done very easily.
But when I first read about the process of removing the air filter covers and air filters on our C63s, I couldn't believe the complexity. If you don't have access to a service manual, or don't know where to look on this forum, you could easily break a number of "hidden" tabs and have to replace the covers. And, the covers, being MB and AMG, are ridiculously costly, because not too many aftermarket companies want to tool up to produce parts for cars whose annual sales volume is miniscule compared to something like a Mustang or Camaro.
To make things worse, you cannot buy a physical service manual at all.
You also cannot really "buy" an electronic service manual - you have to basically "subscribe" to a web-based service with a monthly or annual fee. Or, you have to be comfortable setting up virtual machines on your home computer. Apparently, MB doesn't want you working on your own car.
So, there are a lot of "impediments" to DIY work on a C63.
I would advise the OP that if you are experienced and comfortable with German cars, maybe you'll do ok. But I know that someone like me, despite the half century of hobby experience on American cars and a broad variety of international motorcycles, would be taking a risk diving in without that experience and without the safety net of readily accessible and inexpensive service manuals and aftermarket parts. You've been warned.
Jim G
I cannot work on my C63 as I live in a condo building, and working on a car in the underground garage is strictly forbidden. But, despite the fact that I have been working on both cars and motorcycles doing what I class as "simple" maintenance and "minor mods" for almost 50 years, even if it were not forbidden, I suspect I would have trouble with the Mercedes. I say this because of the way that Mercedes (and, I'm told German manufacturers in general) tend to "overengineer" even the simple stuff.
Here's an example: Changing an air filter.
On any American car, and ANY motorcycle I have worked on (which includes American, Japanese, and Italian motorcycles), changing an air filter has always been something that "anybody" could do. At worst, on a Harley, you have the opportunity to strip out 10mm bolts if you are ham-handed or don't know how to use a torque wrench. You rarely even need to look at a service manual - it's just obvious what holds everything together, and if you are at all mechanically inclined, you can get the job done very easily.
But when I first read about the process of removing the air filter covers and air filters on our C63s, I couldn't believe the complexity. If you don't have access to a service manual, or don't know where to look on this forum, you could easily break a number of "hidden" tabs and have to replace the covers. And, the covers, being MB and AMG, are ridiculously costly, because not too many aftermarket companies want to tool up to produce parts for cars whose annual sales volume is miniscule compared to something like a Mustang or Camaro.
To make things worse, you cannot buy a physical service manual at all.
You also cannot really "buy" an electronic service manual - you have to basically "subscribe" to a web-based service with a monthly or annual fee. Or, you have to be comfortable setting up virtual machines on your home computer. Apparently, MB doesn't want you working on your own car.
So, there are a lot of "impediments" to DIY work on a C63.
I would advise the OP that if you are experienced and comfortable with German cars, maybe you'll do ok. But I know that someone like me, despite the half century of hobby experience on American cars and a broad variety of international motorcycles, would be taking a risk diving in without that experience and without the safety net of readily accessible and inexpensive service manuals and aftermarket parts. You've been warned.
Jim G
07-31-2017, 09:28 PM
#16
MBWorld Fanatic!
I concur, Great answer but I have a corollary to it.
What does the service history tell you?
What options are on it, You have to be sure you are making apples to apples comparisons. Not all W204 C63s are the same.
Personally I would not run my car without an extended warranty, As noted parts are expensive. I lost the AC evaporator on my 2013 with just 47000 km on the odometer, That is a $2000 CDN repair bill at my dealer. I got 65% of the premium back on this one deal.
The other argument re extended warranty is electronic parts are a killer. OEM Performance package brake rotors complete cost more per unit than I paid for my first used VW bug when I was 17!
I think BLKROCT makes a good point. 10 yr is the start of potential issues. See if you can find a 2012 with around 40000 mi. And get a interior that is not all black!
What does the service history tell you?
What options are on it, You have to be sure you are making apples to apples comparisons. Not all W204 C63s are the same.
Personally I would not run my car without an extended warranty, As noted parts are expensive. I lost the AC evaporator on my 2013 with just 47000 km on the odometer, That is a $2000 CDN repair bill at my dealer. I got 65% of the premium back on this one deal.
The other argument re extended warranty is electronic parts are a killer. OEM Performance package brake rotors complete cost more per unit than I paid for my first used VW bug when I was 17!
I think BLKROCT makes a good point. 10 yr is the start of potential issues. See if you can find a 2012 with around 40000 mi. And get a interior that is not all black!
07-31-2017, 10:26 PM
#17
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C63
Rob, there's one question that will determine whether AMG ownership is suitable for you or not.
Do you work on your cars yourself, or do you take them to the dealer or indy mechanic to have them serviced?
Here's the reason I ask -- the only difference between owning a PFL and FL outside of cosmetic and minor mechanical differences, some better on the PFL some better on the FL, are the head bolts. Is this a service you plan on doing yourself? If so, it's a $1k fix. If not, $5k as blkrokt mentioned is a bit high, I'd budget $3.5k.
Moving passed that, are you able to replace things yourself like a water pump? An old radiator? Pulleys? Brakes? Etc.? If the answer is yes, there's no difference between owning a 40k mileage PFL, or a 40K mileage FL. Mileage on parts is mileage on parts.
Personally, I'd go for a lower mileage PFL car as opposed to a high mileage FL car. Wear is wear. Period. And, if you're able to work on these cars yourself, you'll find that they're actually quite attainable as we tend to be charged AMG tax when talking shop labor.
That being said, if you plan on servicing your car at an indy shop, I'd go for a lower mileage car regardless of what make or model. There's nothing more expensive than having to fix up on old car that's constantly breaking.
Do you work on your cars yourself, or do you take them to the dealer or indy mechanic to have them serviced?
Here's the reason I ask -- the only difference between owning a PFL and FL outside of cosmetic and minor mechanical differences, some better on the PFL some better on the FL, are the head bolts. Is this a service you plan on doing yourself? If so, it's a $1k fix. If not, $5k as blkrokt mentioned is a bit high, I'd budget $3.5k.
Moving passed that, are you able to replace things yourself like a water pump? An old radiator? Pulleys? Brakes? Etc.? If the answer is yes, there's no difference between owning a 40k mileage PFL, or a 40K mileage FL. Mileage on parts is mileage on parts.
Personally, I'd go for a lower mileage PFL car as opposed to a high mileage FL car. Wear is wear. Period. And, if you're able to work on these cars yourself, you'll find that they're actually quite attainable as we tend to be charged AMG tax when talking shop labor.
That being said, if you plan on servicing your car at an indy shop, I'd go for a lower mileage car regardless of what make or model. There's nothing more expensive than having to fix up on old car that's constantly breaking.
11-17-2018, 09:22 AM
#18
While I agree that working on my 07' E63 without use of a garage would be a non-starter, I have found the "knock-off" STAR setup for roughly $400 to be invaluable as it comes with all the right cables, MUX Box, Dell (or other) laptop, as well as the software to interface with the ECU, WIS, STAR/XENTRY to diagnose/clear codes as well as to monitor real time testing, and make necessary "Actuations" to raise or lower AirSprings for example, or to turn on/off dampers, ReLearn Crank Sensors, Cam Sensors etc. That said, you gotta be willing to turn a wrench and follow instructions on WIS and HERE on these DIY boards!
As for the cost, the Cam Adjusters should run you around $1600-2000 for all 4, your not supposed to do just 1 or 2 ever because they all wear out relatively evenly as it relates to the barrel pin Spring which controls Advance/retard of the Cam Adjuster. 4 new Cam Bolts will run you $37 or so. New seals for the Cam covers $40 so already were talking $2500 for just that. But that's just the beginning as you will undoubtedly find other parts that need replacing once you get in there yourself.
However, be prepared to scratch your head when it comes with the technical stuff, but in the end it's well worth it DIY!
As for the cost, the Cam Adjusters should run you around $1600-2000 for all 4, your not supposed to do just 1 or 2 ever because they all wear out relatively evenly as it relates to the barrel pin Spring which controls Advance/retard of the Cam Adjuster. 4 new Cam Bolts will run you $37 or so. New seals for the Cam covers $40 so already were talking $2500 for just that. But that's just the beginning as you will undoubtedly find other parts that need replacing once you get in there yourself.
However, be prepared to scratch your head when it comes with the technical stuff, but in the end it's well worth it DIY!
11-17-2018, 01:29 PM
#19
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2010 Irridium Silver MB C63 AMG Sedan
This PFL and FL crying is sooooo over exaggerated.
Let me give it to you list wise:
1. PFL has a beefy transmission. The torque converter is robust, maybe a hair lower, not even a big deal if you arenyt driving to get championships. People are having tons of jerkiness and over heating issues with trans of FL cars. FL cars also seem to slip gears more. Just read about it. The PFL trans rarely over heats or slips, or jerks.
2. PFL is less electronic in dash
3. PFL is almost the same, just cosmetic differences, rear and front bumper, and lights, hood. No biggie.
4. PFL has the headbolt scare that in the grand scheme of things, is not very common and can be remedied by changing out one by one for about $1000 give or take
5. FL car has exact interior as PFL, except for dash.
6. Some people like the PFL car front, as it's not as soft, rounded and feminine
7. Some people like the fact that you can hide the nav screen away by the push of a button
I personally like the front of PFL over FL as I think it looks more menacing.
So basically, both FL and PFL are "essentially" the same car, with some cosmetic differences and maybe, MAAAYBEE the headbolt thing that is soooo not even a big deal. So much drama over PFL and FL.
Let me give it to you list wise:
1. PFL has a beefy transmission. The torque converter is robust, maybe a hair lower, not even a big deal if you arenyt driving to get championships. People are having tons of jerkiness and over heating issues with trans of FL cars. FL cars also seem to slip gears more. Just read about it. The PFL trans rarely over heats or slips, or jerks.
2. PFL is less electronic in dash
3. PFL is almost the same, just cosmetic differences, rear and front bumper, and lights, hood. No biggie.
4. PFL has the headbolt scare that in the grand scheme of things, is not very common and can be remedied by changing out one by one for about $1000 give or take
5. FL car has exact interior as PFL, except for dash.
6. Some people like the PFL car front, as it's not as soft, rounded and feminine
7. Some people like the fact that you can hide the nav screen away by the push of a button
I personally like the front of PFL over FL as I think it looks more menacing.
So basically, both FL and PFL are "essentially" the same car, with some cosmetic differences and maybe, MAAAYBEE the headbolt thing that is soooo not even a big deal. So much drama over PFL and FL.
