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Performance ignition coils?

 
Old 10-29-2017, 07:04 PM
  #26  
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W212 - E63 AMG
Originally Posted by BLKROKT View Post
A little OT, but how did you make or where did you get velocity stacks for the 82mm TBs? That’s whats holding me up from doing the install.

And the Weistec Brisk plugs look just like those BTW. Don’t think they’re copper but silver. Either way the center electrode is bigger than iridium.
DIY jobbie, my friend. I'll update the thread either this evening or tomorrow with pics and thoughts. In short - it's worth doing
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:55 PM
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So I've been running all 8 of these for a few days now and have no complaints.

I want to say that the car is a lot faster...but it's not. However what I can tell you guys is:
  • I'm running a 1.2mm (large, I know) gap and so far so good, but lookout for my thread entitled "HOW much for new coil packs?? !"
  • Light throttle inputs are nicer, particularly at lower rpms
  • I'm not feeling any misfires at idle
  • Medium to full throttle feels nice(r)
  • I want to say the car is slightly better on fuel too, but I need more seat time to verify this
  • They cost me £30GBP for the set of 8


I don't think the upgraded ignition coils would do a whole lot more than these copper plugs tbh so for a fraction of the price and the fact that I noticed anything at all tells me that they were worth buying and probably also worth the hassle of a re-gap every 5-6 months or so.
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Old 11-06-2017, 12:13 PM
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anytime you run a larger gap you're capable of making more power at the risk of spark blow out. for a non boosted engine you're in a much better situation for running larger gaps without issue. one concern, as you put on miles...after say, 7,000 where you've ran great for a long time, your gap at this point on a copper plug can and will widen. for my 1.8t audi engine after about 3,500-4,000 the gap due to the heat of turbo has widened greatly. If I use a factory spec gap at that mile point i'll begin misfiring upon boost almost always.
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Old 11-06-2017, 05:18 PM
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W212 - E63 AMG
I agree with everything you said ^
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Old 11-06-2017, 05:35 PM
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Guys I ended up buying new oem coils to go along with all the maintenance Im doing.I just took the car for a drive for about 40 min and beat on it pretty good and only have 1 miss fire on a 2 cylinders looking at mode 6 data .
There are some people making plasma ignition on ebay using a few capacitors and a few dynos of cars picking up some decent power.

here is a nice video to get your propella heads going

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Old 11-06-2017, 06:19 PM
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wow that's nuts...if that's all it takes no wonder why there are so many companies popping up out of nowhere...most don't produce quality products though as they have multiple failed coils. then those companies vanish. One thing to mention though...the stronger of a spark you have...the faster your plugs will eventually wear out.
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Old 03-05-2018, 09:04 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Celicasaur View Post
So I've been running all 8 of these for a few days now and have no complaints.

I want to say that the car is a lot faster...but it's not. However what I can tell you guys is:
  • I'm running a 1.2mm (large, I know) gap and so far so good, but lookout for my thread entitled "HOW much for new coil packs?? !"
  • Light throttle inputs are nicer, particularly at lower rpms
  • I'm not feeling any misfires at idle
  • Medium to full throttle feels nice(r)
  • I want to say the car is slightly better on fuel too, but I need more seat time to verify this
  • They cost me £30GBP for the set of 8


I don't think the upgraded ignition coils would do a whole lot more than these copper plugs tbh so for a fraction of the price and the fact that I noticed anything at all tells me that they were worth buying and probably also worth the hassle of a re-gap every 5-6 months or so.
Celica, any update on these plugs? Still ok? Do you happen to know the coding here to order a step colder (i.e. would it be a ‘6’)

Answering that last question myself, yes that is the right coding convention, however it runs the other direction. An ‘8’ is one step colder. Tricky. It also doesn’t seem to exist except in an iridium. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Here we go down this rabbit hole....
http://www.briskusa.com/spark_plug_c...at_range_chart

This NGK document from 2016 is really interesting. I’m trying to cross-reference the right thread (12x26.5mm, 14mm hex) and reach to see if there’s a better copper plug out there for my intended use. Check out the section on how to read the codes, I thought that was cool. Unfortunately it doesn’t have individual plug specs, so you’re actually forced to translate the codes to figure it out.
https://www.ngkntk.co.uk/wp-content/...g_Cat_2016.pdf

For reference, your NGK LZKAR7B translates to:
L = Extra long reach thread. 26.5mm: gasket type or 25mm: taper seat type (not applicable to LR8B or all LPG numbers)
Z = Extended gap (extra projection)
KA = 12.0mm (thread) 1.25mm (pitch) 26.5mm (reach) 14.0mm (hex)
R = resistor type
7 = heat range (5-10 scale, higher numbers are colder)
B = ? (maybe ‘design series’)


Brisk has one of these monster catalogs too with codes etc. Let’s do a little looking around here too....
http://www.briskusa.com/sites/defaul...%20Catalog.pdf Their recommended ‘Racing’ series plug for the M156 is the copper electrode MR14LC. This is the only heat range available in copper that fits.
M = 12.0mm (thread) 1.25mm (pitch) 26.5mm (reach) 14.0mm (hex)
R = resistor type
14 = heat range (8-17 scale, higher numbers are hotter)
L = extremely projected insulator nose
C = copper cored center electrode
$12.99ea direct from Brisk or $11.70ea from Jegs

Brisk also has the MR12LS which is an identical silver electrode plug also from their ‘Racing’ series, but one step colder. That’s more like it. It doesn’t show up as an option when you run a make/model cross-reference, however when you go into the spark plug detail to look at the specs it obv fits, and when you go to this page it actually shows the C63 as a ‘popular application’: https://www.briskracing.com/buy-spar...rk-plug-detail
$14.99ea direct from Brisk, or $13.50ea from Jegs (pretty sure this is the popular 1-step colder plug many of us already use). I just ordered 8 of these from Jegs for $108 shipped. Will report back if they’re what I think they are.

I haven't yet found any other colder copper plugs that would fit. Brisk’s ‘regular’ recommended plug is an iridium and also a 14. What would be ideal is an MR12LC but I don’t believe it exists.

Last edited by BLKROKT; 03-06-2018 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 03-06-2018, 09:02 AM
  #33  
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W212 - E63 AMG
So far so good over here man. I think i've covered.....dunno....3 or 4k since I fitted them last summer. I'll pull them when it warms up a little over here and check up on the gaps.

FWIW though, these are one grade colder than stock which we use...the comparison pic i posted above illustrates this (the thicker amount of porcelain around the electrode)

Are you looking for the equivalent of 2 grades colder than stock?

With these (not that I've done any back-to-back testing with the stock heat range to validate that the following statement is worth a damn), I'm able to run 30-31 degree's up top (above 7000rpm) on pump fuel and IATs of sub 20c (it gradually drops as temps rise of course). In theory i'd probably be forced to run an average of 1 degree less throughout the powerband on the stock heat range? who knows. At least fuel economy hasn't suffered though, which can be a negative by-product of a colder plug.
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Old 03-06-2018, 09:33 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Celicasaur View Post
FWIW though, these are one grade colder than stock which we use...the comparison pic i posted above illustrates this (the thicker amount of porcelain around the electrode)

Are you looking for the equivalent of 2 grades colder than stock?
You sure? The NGK OE plug for our car (and in your pic above I think) is the NGK ILZKAR 7A 10. Same heat range as yours (7 is the heat range and 10 is the gap) regardless of what the porcelain looks like. An ‘8’ would be one step colder (reverse scale, 8 is one step colder than 7). The ‘A’ and ‘B’ after the heat range stands for the design. Your new plug is a different design series, probably with the extended insulator.

The Brisk plugs I bought are for sure one step colder than their equivalent code for stock (even number scale, 12 is one step colder than 14).

Last edited by BLKROKT; 03-07-2018 at 01:22 AM.
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Old 03-07-2018, 04:15 AM
  #35  
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W212 - E63 AMG
Ahhh yes, you're absolutely right. I didn't look at the oem part number. I just assumed that because a lot of oem plugs are heat range 6, ours would be the same also.

Are you going to run them out of the box or tinker with the gap?
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Old 03-07-2018, 10:30 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Celicasaur View Post
Ahhh yes, you're absolutely right. I didn't look at the oem part number. I just assumed that because a lot of oem plugs are heat range 6, ours would be the same also.

Are you going to run them out of the box or tinker with the gap?
I’ll cut back the ground and probably run them at .034 or so. I’ve had them in since the headers went on, but never messed with them and ran them at .040 with no issues.
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:00 PM
  #37  
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Ok. Got the MR12LS plugs from JEGS. I happened to find a couple boxes of used Weistec plugs from before they started scrubbing the Brisk part #’s off of them. Their #’s are MR12YS (older) and MR12YS-9 (newer). Comparing them side-by-side below (from left 12LS, 12YS, 12YS-9), you can see that the 12LS has a different insulator projection, ground strap, and overall length than the 12YS’s. This is a bit confusing to me as Brisk says it fits our cars, and the dimensions including reach are all the same.. but they’re not. I’m pretty sure it has to do with the “L” which stands for “extremely projected insulator nose” versus the “Y” which is just “projected insulator nose”. If anyone knows what that means for performance I’m all ears. I need to compare versus an OEM plug to make sure that it’s not just that the 12YS’s are shorter than OE and that’s just how it is. I wonder why this is the one that’s been determined to work best for our cars....

FYI the MR12YS-9 is available at Brisk Racing for $15 a plug.




Last edited by BLKROKT; 03-14-2018 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:24 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by BLKROKT View Post
Ok. Got the MR12LS plugs from JEGS. I happened to find a couple boxes of used Weistec plugs from before they started scrubbing the Brisk part #’s off of them. Their #’s are MR12YS (older) and MR12YS-9 (newer). Comparing them side-by-side below (from left 12LS, 12YS, 12YS-9), you can see that the 12LS has a different insulator projection, ground strap, and overall length than the 12YS’s. This is a bit confusing to me as Brisk says it fits our cars, and the dimensions including reach are all the same.. but they’re not. I’m pretty sure it has to do with the “L” which stands for “extremely projected insulator nose” versus the “Y” which is just “projected insulator nose”. If anyone knows what that means for performance I’m all ears. I need to compare versus an OEM plug to make sure that it’s not just that the 12YS’s are shorter than OE and that’s just how it is. I wonder why this is the one that’s been determined to work best for our cars....

FYI the MR12YS-9 is available at Brisk Racing for $15 a plug.



Im running in my 63 MR12 YS-6
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mr747 View Post
Im running in my 63 MR12 YS-6
Makes sense since you're SC. The 6 and 9 refer to the gap size.
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Old 03-14-2018, 11:44 PM
  #40  
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Found on another forum. Doesn’t quite answer the question, but getting closer. Just ordered 8 of the MR12YS-9 to be safe.

“The tip configuration of the plug refers to its 'projection' - that is the amount that the central electrode and, to some extent, the ceramic insulator of the central electrode, protrudes from the threaded shell of the spark plug. A projected plug will normally offer more efficient combustion, but beware, too much projection can promote plug damage and subsequent engine damage as well as the possibility of making physical contact with piston crowns and valves (which is also likely to cause plug/engine damage).
We have categorised plugs as being:

1. Recessed - the firing tip is entirely within the threaded shell, offering extreme protection for racing engines, good vibration resistance but prone to fouling.

2. Non projected - the tip of the centre electrode is more or less level with the end of the threaded shell. The ground electrode protrudes from the end of the shell but is relatively short and therefore provides good vibration resistance and good thermal conductivity from the electrode tip. We normally also categorise surface discharge types as non projected.

3. Projected - centre electrode and it's insulator protrude from the threaded shell to some extent (usually around 1.5mm). This means the tip is more exposed to the combustion process and tends to keep cleaner, it also means that the spark is produced in a position closer to the centre of the combustion chamber - where the greatest efficiency can usually be achieved.

4. Extra projected - same as projected but projected further. This could be anything from 2.5mm to 10mm or more. These plugs are normally designed for specific applications and use in other applications is highly likely to result in engine damage. Not recommended unless explicitly listed as suitable by the engine or spark plug manufacturer. A non threaded 'shroud' section is sometimes included at the end of the thread to afford some protection to the otherwise exposed insulator.”



And here’s some more very good info. https://www.vdlfuelsystems.com/anyth...t-spark-plugs/

“Projected Core Nose – places the spark an additional 1/8″ into the combustion chamber. Originally designed to prevent fouling by exposing the insulator/ center wire to the air fuel path and heat of the cylinder. In street applications it performs as a hotter plug at lower RPM while running cooler at higher RPM. This is due to the cooling effect of the fuel charge on the projected tip. In racing it does the same thing, however it has limitations because the core nose length and the long ground wire limit the ability to build the colder heat ranges in this configuration. If this plug could be built in a colder heat range it would be ideal for super-speedway use, but as it is its use is normally limited to short tracks, some road courses, and sometimes qualifying on the big tracks. Because it physically moves the ignition point it can more centrally locate the ignition which reduces combustion time. It can also place the ignition point in a more efficient location based on swirl. In some cases this plug has the same effect as increasing ignition timing.“

Last edited by BLKROKT; 03-15-2018 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:55 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by BLKROKT View Post
Ok. Got the MR12LS plugs from JEGS. I happened to find a couple boxes of used Weistec plugs from before they started scrubbing the Brisk part #’s off of them. Their #’s are MR12YS (older) and MR12YS-9 (newer). Comparing them side-by-side below (from left 12LS, 12YS, 12YS-9), you can see that the 12LS has a different insulator projection, ground strap, and overall length than the 12YS’s. This is a bit confusing to me as Brisk says it fits our cars, and the dimensions including reach are all the same.. but they’re not. I’m pretty sure it has to do with the “L” which stands for “extremely projected insulator nose” versus the “Y” which is just “projected insulator nose”. If anyone knows what that means for performance I’m all ears. I need to compare versus an OEM plug to make sure that it’s not just that the 12YS’s are shorter than OE and that’s just how it is. I wonder why this is the one that’s been determined to work best for our cars....
The LS one looks like it has the same sort of projection as the OEM design, no? I guess a side-by-side shot will clear that up though.

On the contrary, I'd like to go against the grain and say that the YS probably isn't going to perform better for our cars on the basis that...well...I think I'm late to the show due to the forum time-difference and you ended up answering your own question a little further down. I'll still yap on however: The extra projection will run hotter (cleaner burn) and that's not necessarily a bad thing for an NA motor. The extra projection also effectively increases the ignition timing.

For example, we're all used to an M156 with say, 24 degrees at WOT making ~450whp on stock plugs (with headers). With a plug that's more recessed, when the plug is fired at 24 ATDC, the flame will build with the piston being eeever so slightly higher up on the compression stroke...which will kinda be like running 23 degrees on the normal extra-projected plug. Perhaps not this extreme in reality (ie, several hp difference == ~1 degree of timing)...it'll probably end up being something like...i dunno, but you get the idea.

Running a short/hot/cold plug like this is more essential on older, carb'd motors because of the need to tune them to run safer under forced induction, varying fuel/temps etc ...they need to change hardware to achieve the desired running condition. On our cars with knock sensors and the ability to press buttons on a computer to precisely set when to fire the plug etc, the benefits will be minimal. Extra insurance on a high-comp - forced induction motor, sure. Essential...probably not. Hence, why you may have heard 'don't run projected plugs on a nitrous motor' or 'run 2 steps colder with nitrous' for example - it's for this very reason and is a good, cheaper solution than retuning the set up to run lower ignition advance.

Where possible, i'd always run a hotter plug, until when it starts to be an issue (ie a heat-sink). And then it'll be a case of....should I pull a degree of timing, or run a shorter/colder plug combo. Each to their own on opinions with that I've just said, but in a nutshell, the stock heat-range and configuration is probably going to be fine for 95% of us on the board here.
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Old 03-17-2018, 09:33 PM
  #42  
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these are the US version of the plugs celica is using. i ordered them off ebay for $33 shipped. gonna run a big gap but not 1.2 (the look alone freaked me out) i’ll post up when i’m done. st patty’s day turn up
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Old 03-18-2018, 12:10 AM
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The back story is, my car has been feeling sluggish and I’m critical of how it runs. I changed the plugs when i did the tubes probably 10k ago. I gapped the plugs to .85 cause looking at them at 1 freaked me out lol. I cant sit here and tell you the car is loads faster but i can say that it instantly felt better, not sluggish anymore, i have to barely press the throttle to get it to move and its overall much much more responsive. I’ll probably pull the plugs tomorrow and do the 1m.
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Old 03-18-2018, 07:51 AM
  #44  
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Nice work, that's pretty much what it felt like for me also...keep us updated on how it feels with the 1.0mm gap
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Old 03-18-2018, 09:04 AM
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What is the stock plugs gap setting? Would it be better to just gap those a tiny bit more?

why do people have issues with the dls plugs? Are they gapped bigger than ours?
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Old 03-18-2018, 09:14 AM
  #46  
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What issues are they having? I didn't know that....
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Old 03-18-2018, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Celicasaur View Post
What issues are they having? I didn't know that....
my tuner told me not to run them and my buddy used them and was misfiring at the track.
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Old 03-18-2018, 09:50 AM
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Oh....fair enough. I always thought they were meant to be a grade colder than stock, but I never looked into them much as they run the same gap as stock and can't be opened up due to the iridium tip.

I can't understand that they'd be so bad to use on the M156 though. There's a reason for everything...

I'll have a poke around online later to compare the SLS plugs to stock. If any of you else wants to do that before me and be helpful, then be my guest
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Old 03-18-2018, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Celicasaur View Post
Oh....fair enough. I always thought they were meant to be a grade colder than stock, but I never looked into them much as they run the same gap as stock and can't be opened up due to the iridium tip.

I can't understand that they'd be so bad to use on the M156 though. There's a reason for everything...

I'll have a poke around online later to compare the SLS plugs to stock. If any of you else wants to do that before me and be helpful, then be my guest
I'm willing to buy a set to try them out.
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Old 03-18-2018, 09:55 AM
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Fairly confident you won't notice any difference if they're the same gap as stock....let's have a look at the specs later and work out a theory.
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