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2012 C63;1971 280SE 3.5(Sold);2023 EQS 450 SUV 4 Matic (Wife's)
The Ambient Air Sensor is in the lower left grill by the fog light. It can get pushed back behind the grill and warm air from the engine can screw up the readings. It is in the red circle in the attached picture. You will have to remove the front engine belly pan cover to reach in and push it back into place.
Is it your Ambient Air Sensor you are having trouble with or your Intake Air Sensor?
The Ambient Air Sensor is in the lower left grill by the fog light. It can get pushed back behind the grill and warm air from the engine can screw up the readings. It is in the red circle in the attached picture. You will have to remove the front engine belly pan cover to reach in and push it back into place.
Is it your Ambient Air Sensor you are having trouble with or your Intake Air Sensor?
Awesome thanks man! Yes issue CEL was P0071 Ambient Air temp sensor. When I used the OBD scanner...showed ambient temp fluctuating from 54-125 back to 54F...was quite irratic. INtake temps were fine...hovered between 154F to 174 depending on speed I was going.
Your in the UK? I was about to order the smallest ITG Maxogen units which I thought would be better than my set up right now. It would require more work with the air ducts. Build quality would bebetter due to metal housing of the ITG units vs hard plastic of mine.mthose units are nice.
After a bad personal experience with an ITG filter crumbling and letting itself slowly come apart into my engine on a different car I'd never recommend their foam filters to anybody. TBH I think your set up looks rather nice. It's 100 times better looking than mine tbh.
Originally Posted by SROC276
i am not sure why I have two maf reading but I am assuming maf in red is correct one. First time to log so hopefully this gives a good picture of current Orion set up.
Nice work sir. Yeah, the bold red one is the correct one and is pretty much inline for a tuned M156. If you can perform a similar test with the stock airbox (no need to worry too much about adaptations as it's not necessarily power via AFR that you're overly concerned about right now), then you can potentially save dyno money if you don't see an improvement in airflow with this set up.
I don't think you're heat-soaked to see those inlet temps...it's more than likely to be the sensor. Although strange because the log shows intake air temp being super high, but the cel you got says its the ambient temp...spooky.
After a bad personal experience with an ITG filter crumbling and letting itself slowly come apart into my engine on a different car I'd never recommend their foam filters to anybody. TBH I think your set up looks rather nice. It's 100 times better looking than mine tbh.
Nice work sir. Yeah, the bold red one is the correct one and is pretty much inline for a tuned M156. If you can perform a similar test with the stock airbox (no need to worry too much about adaptations as it's not necessarily power via AFR that you're overly concerned about right now), then you can potentially save dyno money if you don't see an improvement in airflow with this set up.
I don't think you're heat-soaked to see those inlet temps...it's more than likely to be the sensor. Although strange because the log shows intake air temp being super high, but the cel you got says its the ambient temp...spooky.
Thanks bud...ok great to see that MAF flow is normal in your opinion. I sent Jeremy the same file and he will work on a custom tune for my set up shortly.
Yes the temp sensor issue is spooky literally just happened randomly....I believe the sensor in my front bumper went loose or broke. I'll need to remedy that shortly using Mort's input above.
Ok on the ITG's....just looked nice and had the air duct scoop integrated.....will be reviewing how I put my ram air back on....thinking stock air ducts is drawing more hot air than prior but no way to know for sure until I put them back on.
Friday is dyno day so will see. I will do my run without the updated tune so its fair....then do another dyno session later with the new tune in adjusted for my application.
Friday is dyno day so will see. I will do my run without the updated tune so its fair....then do another dyno session later with the new tune in adjusted for my application.
Ideally it should be back to back tests, same day, same dyno if you have the time. But if not, I can appreciate whatever your reasoning would be I guess. It's just that it'll likely be a small difference in power and easily swayed by conditions negatively or positively on the day.
And yes yes, dyno the tune and log again please We definitely need more data shared on the board.
A last note, I wonder if OE tuning have been doing VVT tunes for a long time...because I've seen airflow for OE cars, about as high as EC V7 cars
SROC276, if you do a back to back dyno test tomorrow, could you please log airflow too? I'm just interested in seeing the difference between stock and this new one really.
My third revision to my own airbox is still a failure vs oem. I'm intrigued to understand if your method has better potential. Mine is simply a huge version of the stock airbox (3-4 times the volume) and clearly it's just not working for me.
SROC276, if you do a back to back dyno test tomorrow, could you please log airflow too? I'm just interested in seeing the difference between stock and this new one really.
My third revision to my own airbox is still a failure vs oem. I'm intrigued to understand if your method has better potential. Mine is simply a huge version of the stock airbox (3-4 times the volume) and clearly it's just not working for me.
sorry for late posts...I will not have time to swap to carbonio or stock airbox set up during dyno session to do the test. It will be a basic hp to hp test between last test and this set up. I just sent full logs to Jeremy at Oetuning and he sent me be back a remapped tune to run along side this intake specifically. I have not loaded yet on the car but will see if there is time to flash tomorrow after my “as is” run.
I asked what the specific changes were that were made for this retune and this was his reply. Possibly why we don’t see changes on MAF logs? I believe someone posted before on another thread that the car will stay or attempt to adjust and stay within or close too its preset guidelines. You will need to tell the MAFs where it can go basically per message below. See here from Oetuning:
There are calculated limits for each MAF as well as calculations that have to be raised at specific RPMs to allow the engine to achieve higher airflow for calculation. More air = more power/torque.
MB has limitations that will cause the car to operate inside the potential of the increased airflow. To optimize for best power each breakpoint must be adjusted (not too little or too much) so that each calculation for VE/cylinder filling is correct.
I hope that explains how and what I have edited for optimization.
goal: does intake set up and new filter inline direct position help add power vs stock oem design? If yes, how much HP can car do on its own without a retune?
If no increase in power on initial tests...take a picture again as it may be the last time I see it....bring out flash device...
flash new matched tune, relearn and adapt and see if adjusted parameters help add power with this set up.
Ideally it should be back to back tests, same day, same dyno if you have the time. But if not, I can appreciate whatever your reasoning would be I guess. It's just that it'll likely be a small difference in power and easily swayed by conditions negatively or positively on the day.
And yes yes, dyno the tune and log again please We definitely need more data shared on the board.
A last note, I wonder if OE tuning have been doing VVT tunes for a long time...because I've seen airflow for OE cars, about as high as EC V7 cars
Surprising results at least in my point of view. The new intake was able to add +1-3 whp on top of my past set up without being re-tuned. Power went from 430 to 433 while torque went from 384 to 390 ft/lb.
It did not lose any power but gained some top end power as well as a slight increase in torque which was my hope. My last set up again was the Carbonio intake, K&N Drop in and the Gruppe M style ram air. The run was done on the same mustang dyno at FFTEC, no other changes were made to the car. I was worried that power may be affected due to the removal of the gruppe m ram air unit but that didn't happen at all. As you can see from my photo, I am using the factory air ducts. It may make more power if I find a way to reinstall the Gruppe M units which was my next plan of action for my kit.
I will be reflashing the car tonight with my new custom tune for this set up done by Oetuning. I will allow the car to learn again and then redyno in a weeks time. Tune provided was to modify how the car sees the new inflow so it can compensate better. Looking for more power here.
Attached is the dyno sheet for all to see. New intake is run 1 & 2. Run 3 is my old run with the Carbonio set up.
Last edited by SROC276; 11-03-2017 at 06:30 PM.
Reason: info change
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Good effort. Sample size too small though. Statistically that 1-3hp (0.20-0.60% variance) doesn’t mean anything, especially done on different days. Airflow logs and filter area measurement would probably tell you more. But if you like the mod that’s all that matters.
Good effort. Sample size too small though. Statistically that 1-3hp (0.20-0.60% variance) doesn’t mean anything, especially done on different days. Airflow logs and filter area measurement would probably tell you more. But if you like the mod that’s all that matters.
Agree on variance..was mainly looking not to lose power but to improve upon the current typical set up. Once I get my new tune in, should give me a better picture of its capabilities. I am not sure what filter area was for oem airbox but new one if I can remember correctly was 122.225 for the computed cone surface area? Used a calculator online based on filter cone dimensions. Not sure if this sounds right or not but that's what output was for the Orions Filter. Essentially for $500, I was able to redo $2600 worth of intake goody performance for our car. As I own the old set up...I can say the car feel noticeably smoother on acceleration so yes I do like the set up and will be finalizing it all shortly.
New tune is in which adjusted maf limits to accommodate for the intake...pulls harder all the way...will dyno again later...maybe I can get another 3 HP lol...no cel lights, smooth all the way. Intake has now be wrapped in heat reflective tape...will post photos tomorrow. So far so good.
Sadly looks like nothing more than a dyno variance for the moment, but back to back logs of airflow would tell a more accurate story. At least it didn't lose any power. I'm going to try one more intake variation of my one...if that fails, I'll just bite the bullet and bend over n pay for a RENNtech one, ie the only one that seems to actually do anything.
I like the look of your intake set up...looks like two giant biceps being flexed and the motor looks like a solid chest....reminds me of Arnie from Predator, hehe
I've always wondered if gold reflective tape actually does anything for air temps. I've seen it on a few M156 motors, but not seen anything to back it up. I suppose I never will either due to the set up of the factory sensor. Ahem...what were AMG thinking....
Sadly looks like nothing more than a dyno variance for the moment, but back to back logs of airflow would tell a more accurate story. At least it didn't lose any power. I'm going to try one more intake variation of my one...if that fails, I'll just bite the bullet and bend over n pay for a RENNtech one, ie the only one that seems to actually do anything.
I like the look of your intake set up...looks like two giant biceps being flexed and the motor looks like a solid chest....reminds me of Arnie from Predator, hehe
I've always wondered if gold reflective tape actually does anything for air temps. I've seen it on a few M156 motors, but not seen anything to back it up. I suppose I never will either due to the set up of the factory sensor. Ahem...what were AMG thinking....
lol now that you’ve pointed it out....does look likes it’s flexing lol..
yes gains were slight but the two Orion’s and factory maf housing mod at minimum were able to recreate or possibly add power too a full Carbonio + ram air set up without the car being returned. Dyno tech did say set up did add power mid range through to top end...albeit nothing huge...but it added and shifted the mid to top end up. Way I am looking at it...if Carbonio matched ROW boxes or did slightly better at +10-12 wheel power, then this set up would be same to +15whp. I am not sure how much power the ram air adds but if added a little....then this set up also provided that power as I am not using it anymore.
On your set up...did you send log into your tuner for an update? he mentionned our cars will adjust everything to compensate especially if we are getting close to max end. Maybe tuner can open up the car to accept your new air boxes flow characteristics like they did with mine?
anyway, new adjusted tune in the car is in for this set up.....mid to top end just opened up massively....can’t wait to see what it does on dyno. Do you use torque app hp and torque results? I compared before and after tune calculated power and so far peak before was 481hp...now 500hp. Torque also jump 10-15ft/lbs. waiting for Oetuning to provide me with feedback on new log I sent them. Make sure all is well.
forgot to mention....intake temps now are at 140-145f after the gold heat wrap around the Orion’s...looks like it helped.
My my next project would be to mate the ram air set up to this as I think the stock air duct is sucking in more hot air..or will mod that oem one to extend out front a little further.....at cruising speeds...intake temps were 105-115f.....when stopped it shoots to 140-145f. I believe that is one advantage of the ram air set up. The ram air tray up front almost covers over radiator and sits lower.
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Your gains are likely going to come solely from the tune. Bet if you put the Carbonios and ram air setup back on with the new tune it would feel the same.
BTW that ram air only makes marginal power at speed in real-life conditions. You won’t see anything on a dyno. Worth just under 1mph in the 1/4.
lol now that you’ve pointed it out....does look likes it’s flexing lol..
yes gains were slight but the two Orion’s and factory maf housing mod at minimum were able to recreate or possibly add power too a full Carbonio + ram air set up without the car being returned. Dyno tech did say set up did add power mid range through to top end...albeit nothing huge...but it added and shifted the mid to top end up. Way I am looking at it...if Carbonio matched ROW boxes or did slightly better at +10-12 wheel power, then this set up would be same to +15whp. I am not sure how much power the ram air adds but if added a little....then this set up also provided that power as I am not using it anymore.
On your set up...did you send log into your tuner for an update? he mentionned our cars will adjust everything to compensate especially if we are getting close to max end. Maybe tuner can open up the car to accept your new air boxes flow characteristics like they did with mine?
anyway, new adjusted tune in the car is in for this set up.....mid to top end just opened up massively....can’t wait to see what it does on dyno. Do you use torque app hp and torque results? I compared before and after tune calculated power and so far peak before was 481hp...now 500hp. Torque also jump 10-15ft/lbs. waiting for Oetuning to provide me with feedback on new log I sent them. Make sure all is well.
the intake looks great!
as celica is saying the best way to measure it is to log the car 2-4th. go home, swap out the intake and then go log the car again. if you could do that it would be helpful. by now you should be the intake switcharo/installer master LOL
Your gains are likely going to come solely from the tune. Bet if you put the Carbonios and ram air setup back on with the new tune it would feel the same.
BTW that ram air only makes marginal power at speed in real-life conditions. You won’t see anything on a dyno. Worth just under 1mph in the 1/4.
yes I agree on the new updated tune....car felt insane after learning period. Not sure if tune is suited for old set up....Jeremy did have to change maf parameters and timing to compensate for the intake. I am assuming he saw changes in my log.
thanks for input on ram air...I may just mess around with oem tray myself to see if I can extend it out a bit further.
as celica is saying the best way to measure it is to log the car 2-4th. go home, swap out the intake and then go log the car again. if you could do that it would be helpful. by now you should be the intake switcharo/installer master LOL
thanks...yes I can do an intake swap in 15 minuets now....lol....I am running new tune for Orion set up now so will need to flash back later. Overall if you have a stock intake box and want to make one yourself and get all the hp benefits without the high set up costs...this set up would be one of the choices....especially if you like doing stuff yourself....maf modification alone took most time because of cutting
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Originally Posted by SROC276
yes I agree on the new updated tune....car felt insane after learning period. Not sure if tune is suited for old set up....Jeremy did have to change maf parameters and timing to compensate for the intake. I am assuming he saw changes in my log.
thanks for input on ram air...I may just mess around with oem tray myself to see if I can extend it out a bit further.
I’m glad you’re happy with your intake, but seriously, your comparison has zero merit now. I’m sorry but you can’t put a new “optimized” tune on the thing and then compare to the old setup with the old tune and then claim that your DIY intake “gained” or “lost” power. Believe me, your intake isn’t so radical that you needed a new tune for it to work. And of course the new tune will work with the old setup.
[QUOTE=BLKROKT;7304383]I’m glad you’re happy with your intake, but seriously, your comparison has zero merit now. I’m sorry but you can’t put a new “optimized” tune on the thing and then compare to the old setup with the old tune and then claim that your DIY intake “gained” or “lost” power. Believe me, your intake isn’t so radical that you needed a new tune for it to work. And of course the new tune will work with the old setup.[/QUOTE
? Am not exactly sure where you missed the points made. No one said I was going to put the optimized version against the old set up. This intake, for those who were curious about a similar set up, will make the same if not a little more than my carbonio and ram air set up at a significantly cheaper price point.
Second, no one said it was radical. Don’t misconstrue my personal excitement in the new found power as a break through discovery and pitch. I was sharing the journey.
bottom, yes enjoying the intake very much. As for the new tune, can’t tell you what Oetuning did to optimize the set up but there was a change for sure and it did need it otherwise I wouldn’t have opted to do the retune if he said log looked fine.
yes gains were slight but the two Orion’s and factory maf housing mod at minimum were able to recreate or possibly add power too a full Carbonio + ram air set up without the car being returned. Dyno tech did say set up did add power mid range through to top end...albeit nothing huge...but it added and shifted the mid to top end up. Way I am looking at it...if Carbonio matched ROW boxes or did slightly better at +10-12 wheel power, then this set up would be same to +15whp. I am not sure how much power the ram air adds but if added a little....then this set up also provided that power as I am not using it anymore.
Everything that I know about this platform tells me that the Carbonio intake is nothing more than a pretty looking stock replacement...
Originally Posted by SROC276
On your set up...did you send log into your tuner for an update? he mentionned our cars will adjust everything to compensate especially if we are getting close to max end. Maybe tuner can open up the car to accept your new air boxes flow characteristics like they did with mine?
My tuner doesn't like me. I've been asking DaveMeansE, Loungn14, Jerry himself and even the usual sales@eurocharged email account for a retune, but they don't want to know. I literally feel like the Jim Gnitecki of Great Britain. But yeah, going back on topic, I would be willing to bet my third piston that the gains of the intake didn't 'need' a re-calibration to make the car run well. At best, they'd have helped to flow a handful of additional cfm over stock.....the amount of additional air that it might have helped the motor to ingest is nothing that the ecu wouldn't have been able to have adjusted itself for nicely via the mafs and lambda's
Originally Posted by SROC276
anyway, new adjusted tune in the car is in for this set up.....mid to top end just opened up massively....can’t wait to see what it does on dyno. Do you use torque app hp and torque results? I compared before and after tune calculated power and so far peak before was 481hp...now 500hp. Torque also jump 10-15ft/lbs. waiting for Oetuning to provide me with feedback on new log I sent them. Make sure all is well.
I'm happy for you (and slightly jealous) that it's running stronger after the retune. My guess is that you have a revised tune which gives you full throttle, when you actually go for full throttle. It makes a very nice difference to overall acceleration and the on-road feel of the car. My car only gives me full throttle (reasonably consistently) after 6000rpm or so.
Originally Posted by SROC276
forgot to mention....intake temps now are at 140-145f after the gold heat wrap around the Orion’s...looks like it helped.
Nice nice
However, due to the constantly changing weather, driving habits, conditions etc...the best way to gauge the improvement would be find out the average difference from ambient to intake air temps before the heat wrap and then with the heat wrap
Originally Posted by SROC276
My my next project would be to mate the ram air set up to this as I think the stock air duct is sucking in more hot air..or will mod that oem one to extend out front a little further.....at cruising speeds...intake temps were 105-115f.....when stopped it shoots to 140-145f. I believe that is one advantage of the ram air set up. The ram air tray up front almost covers over radiator and sits lower.
Funny you say this. Last night I was driving around and air temps were 40 degrees's centigrade (lots of traffic and headers = high IATs). However once I'd gotten onto the highway, after a steady 60-70mph cruise for around 5 minutes, temps had dropped to 20 degree's centigrade. After another 5-10 minutes, they eventually went down to 13 or 14 degree's. (Am i using the apostrophe correctly??). This tells me that the stock CAI system works well.
BTW please don't take any of these comments as knocking your efforts or trying to make ourselves sound like a smug smartypants etc. I think more than anything, the general message here is either a) try harder and keep trying to develop it further and b) make your approach a bit more methodical to help you actually make good progress. I think we'd all like an additional 10hp from a 'simple' air intake, but it seems like we'll have to try a lot harder if we're to match RENNtech's efforts
Everything that I know about this platform tells me that the Carbonio intake is nothing more than a pretty looking stock replacement...
God I hope not...lol, it’s inline if not a little better thanROW boxes.
My tuner doesn't like me. I've been asking DaveMeansE, Loungn14, Jerry himself and even the usual sales@eurocharged email account for a retune, but they don't want to know. I literally feel like the Jim Gnitecki of Great Britain. But yeah, going back on topic, I would be willing to bet my third piston that the gains of the intake didn't 'need' a re-calibration to make the car run well. At best, they'd have helped to flow a handful of additional cfm over stock.....the amount of additional air that it might have helped the motor to ingest is nothing that the ecu wouldn't have been able to have adjusted itself for nicely via the mafs and lambda's
Maybe try’s Oetuning....Jeremy was highly responsive. Possible assessment....that’s great to ask my tuner and see if that’s all that went into it.ill see he wants to respond to it. Overall, car feels much stronger after the flash which optimized my log inputs based on their assessment.
I'm happy for you (and slightly jealous) that it's running stronger after the retune. My guess is that you have a revised tune which gives you full throttle, when you actually go for full throttle. It makes a very nice difference to overall acceleration and the on-road feel of the car. My car only gives me full throttle (reasonably consistently) after 6000rpm or so.
i am not sure have no idea what he did to optimize....but he did...at least the butt dyno says so....lol
Nice nice
However, due to the constantly changing weather, driving habits, conditions etc...the best way to gauge the improvement would be find out the average difference from ambient to intake air temps before the heat wrap and then with the heat wrap
G
Funny you say this. Last night I was driving around and air temps were 40 degrees's centigrade (lots of traffic and headers = high IATs). However once I'd gotten onto the highway, after a steady 60-70mph cruise for around 5 minutes, temps had dropped to 20 degree's centigrade. After another 5-10 minutes, they eventually went down to 13 or 14 degree's. (Am i using the apostrophe correctly??). This tells me that the stock CAI system works well.
I hear ya!
BTW please don't take any of these comments as knocking your efforts or trying to make ourselves sound like a smug smartypants etc. I think more than anything, the general message here is either a) try harder and keep trying to develop it further and b) make your approach a bit more methodical to help you actually make good progress. I think we'd all like an additional 10hp from a 'simple' air intake, but it seems like we'll have to try a lot harder if we're to match RENNtech's efforts
Absolutely....I like the comments but want to make sure folks understand it was done for fun and love of the platform...yes if not for your suggestion to use torque app...I would not know half of the parameters or gotten a retune for the intake specifically...so thank you for that suggestion. Yes approach could’ve been better but goal was try something new cause I haven’t seen it other than the DADs platform and what’s normally spoken about. The ORion units are new and didn’t see many people try ITG units or BMC units...I get it was tight constraints....so when I saw the Orion dimensions I gave it a shot. I also wanted an inline flow filter vs the current z path of ours.
yes this intake will not net you 10hp more than ROW or Carbonio...it will give whopping +1-3 whp more on its own lol....unknown what power level is now....will dyno it one last time with the tune and see where we are at. I shared torque app hp levels with you in last post but not sure if that is even remotely correct.
11-01-2017, 04:53 PM
We definitely need more data shared on the board.
