AMG3.2

I had mine installed when I torqued the phaser bolt down, but in theory, it shouldn't matter because once installed, even if not torqued, the other gear is holding the cam gear in place.

As far as I can tell, you've done everything correctly from a timing perspective, but I'll keep thinking...

AMG3.2

Sorry for the double post.

Yes, correct. The cams can be installed anytime regardless of where the crank pulley sits. To install correctly, you must make sure the crank pulley is lined up at 40 degrees TDC and then install the cams with the flatblade, etc. but it seems like you did that, and never touched the crank pulley again which wouldn't make sense...

Jasonoff

Maybe you're not visualizing it. The 40deg setting is for proper timing. Once you unbolt everyting you can spin the engine freely and bolt the cams back up with the motor at a different angle.

Have a look at the below image.


If your engine turned at all when you unbolted the cams, lets say one or two teeth (the timing sprocket both cam adjusters mesh with) and you re-installed everything. The cams would be aligned for 40deg but your engine was not.

To verify timing, align the crank to 40deg and verify the cam tool still fits properly on both sides. If it doesn't, you need to loosen the cams and re-adjust it.

AMG3.2

Exactly. Your cams may be timed for 40 degrees, while your engine is actually a few degrees above or below 40. Life Jasonoff said, align to 40 degrees and make sure the flat blade sits perfectly against the block.

Jasonoff

When I unbolted my cams on the first side I did, the motor moved a few degrees. Probably from cylinder pressure since I didn't remove the plugs. I had to put it back to 40deg before re-installing the cams.

Don't worry about the adjusters or set screw on the gear. The gear has 2 pieces under spring pressure which just adjusts backlash. You use the holder tool or setscrew to keep it from moving so it slides back in easily. If the 2 pices are misaligned it won't slide into the timing sprocket very easily.

You can completely disassemble the adjuster and put it back on in whatever orientation you want. As long as the engine is at 40deg and you use the tool, the timing will be bang on.

jaspirr

This seems to be the most likely culprit. I put the crank to 40 and never looked at it again. Didn't even check it when I put the serpentine belt back on. I had a false belief that once I set it to 40 using the crank bolt, that's where it would sit steady unless I touched the crank bolt again. Apparently that's not the case; most likely moved the timing when I was adjusting the cams and the adjusters.

Ugh that still doesn't make total sense to me. The cams are not connected to the timing chain. So spinning the Cams and trying to line them up together, how does that change the crank timing? The only thing that would change the crank timing would be if I were turning the cam adjusters, which is essentially impossible. You can't spin them at all once the teeth grab.

I'm probably ovsrthinking this and should just get in there and fix the timing. So how do I fix this? Turn the crank to 40 degrees, remove cams to remove the tension, reinstall cams right away, use the timing tools, install cam adjusters, use timing tools? During this process am I constantly checking the crank pulley to make sure it's at 40? Won't it drift away from 40 TDC every time I adjust the cams?

Do I put the cams at 40 TDC BEFORE I tighten them down with the cam caps? Or after? What if I tighten the Cams and time them to 40 degrees, only to then look at the crank pulley and its not 40? I don't understand how to make sure the cams, adjusters, and crank are all at 40 simultaneously. There's no lock tool on the crank.

Thanks again guys.

EDIT: I might have had a revelation. I recall turning the cams with a wrench while the cam adjusters were loosely installed. I was trying to line up the flat blade on the back and not paying attention to the cam adjusters. If my guess is correct, that means when I was turning the cams, I was also turning the cam adjusters, which was also turning the crank pulley. So when I put the flat blade on the back of the cams, I may have moved the crank away from 40 degrees.

Jasonoff

Yes they are. What gear did you think you meshed with when you slid the adjuster back on? They have to be physically connected. Otherwise how would the valve train operate in unison with the engine?

Have a look at the photo I posted again.

AMG3.2

First things first -- check to see if the timing is actually off. Set the crank at 40 degrees TDC and see if the flat blades line up perfectly and report back.

Jasonoff

That's probably a nope and a curtail step. Although not difficult to fix, just time consuming.

Put the motor to 40deg and rotate it CCW/CW until the timing tools bolt up. Loosen both adjusters and put the motor back to 40deg CCW or CW depending which way it is off (Do NOT do a full revolution with the cams locked in place). Re-torque the adjusters.

Repeat for the other side if it's off.

jaspirr

Will do - but with one question. A mechanic friend of mine told me two days ago to never turn the crank counter clockwise as (1) it can cause timing issues (ironic to this thread) and (2) it could loosen the crank bolt itself.

Jasonoff

We're talking a minor amount. Just do it slowly with the spark plugs removed if you have to go CCW.

EDIT: Should be obvious, but accessory belt is removed as well.

go team

If the bolts are loose there won’t be any force applied to the crank pulley when it’s turned ccw.

jaspirr

Ok, pictures will follow. My phone died so it's charging for me to take pictures.

Valve covers off. Crank at 40 degrees TDC. Assuming this is the 40 degree mark but just posting to make sure there is no doubt:

https://imgur.com/eLVCJVV

Put the cam holder tool on (the top one, not the flat blade). It is really close but does not fit perfectly. The tool goes about 1/3 of the way down the cam "guide" but definitely does not slide straight on like it should. Here's a crappy pic that my phone took as it was dying (no flash, no focus):

https://imgur.com/TUfSJXc

Really close. So we have sort of been proven right but it's not glaringly obvious. If I had to guess I would say that's maybe 1 degree off at most. It's the same thing for the flat blade in the back of the cams. Really close but no cigar.

So what I do now is try to move the crank pulley until the cam timing tools line up? It's such a miniscule difference I'm not certain I can make such small adjustments with the crank pulley. For example, for the flat blade in the back, it fits on one cam but not the second. How can I adjust one cam only using the crank pulley? (edit: Can I use a wrench to move just one camshaft into alignment? Does just one camshaft change the 40 degrees TDC alignment?)

Or should I just remove the cam caps, remove the phaser bolts, and start from scratch?

Jasonoff

I explained exactly what to do already. Your car is out of timing (probably on both sides). Fix it and it should be good to go.

go team

KEEP your crank at TDC, remove your camshafts and reinstall using the tool guide. Your engine is at TDC but your Cams are NOT! The timing tools do not dictate TDC, your engine does.

Storm363

Try one more thing. Take a wrench (27 or 28, I don’t remember exactly) and while you have all the things assembled but the valve covers, try to rotate the camshafts (put the wrench right after the spot where you install the front camshaft tool). Make sure that the timing tools are not installed. If the camshaft adjusters are locked, than ok. If no - move the camshafts till they lock. Then, if the timing is wrong, reset it and try to crank again.

AMG3.2

+1 You might need to move your crank a bit to get the tools to fit on there properly when removing the camshafts since the timing is currently out of wack, but when you go back to re-install, make sure the crank is 100% at TDC.

jptaylor

....someone correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I remember the cam adjuster lock screw actually being one of the bolts you just removed during disassembly...that way you were 1 bolt short if you reassembled without removing the locking screw....

and you can absolutely reinstall the cam adjusters out of phase/timing, the tools make it almost foolproof but if not used properly you can get them lined up and bolted in and NOT be correct...and I believe the not connected to the timing chain comment was in reference to the fact that the timing chain doesn't physically loop over the top of the cam adjuster and thus go limp and fall when you remove the phaser....

my money is on a sensor being unplugged as you said their is no mechanical noise when turning over(if it was bad out of time you'd wreck the motor as it IS an interference engine)...when I reassembled mine I left the thermostat/temp sensor connector unplugged....also if the timing was bad out of whack you WOULD get a CEL as each head has cam position sensors monitoring adv/ret and would light up the dash if they saw a signal out of range....and the engine does NOT have to crank and run to set one of these codes, it monitors DURING startup as well as run time

jptaylor

....also, when you get the engine to 40° the tools should DROP in place and lay perfectly flat with zero effort, they will literally FALL in place when everything is lined up. If they don't rotate CW until you reach 40° again and try it again

Jasonoff

If it's out of timing, he won't be able to install the tool with the engine at 40deg.

He doesn't need to remove the cams. With the tools installed (engine possibly not at 40deg to get them on), once you loosen both adjuster bolts you can turn the engine back to 40deg then re-torque the adjusters (I also held the crank in place when torquing both adjusters).

If the tools install fine with the engine at 40deg it's timed properly..

jaspirr

Thanks. Can I just turn the camshafts using a wrench to get the timing tools in place for removing the cams? That seems to be a much more direct way of lining up the camshafts to the tools.

It's one or the other. I either keep the crank at TDC, or I get the tool in place and remove the camshafts. The two things are not compatible. Right now my crank is at TDC and the camshaft tools do not fall neatly into place. If I turn the camshafts using a wrench, that will move the engine away from 40 TDC right? But then once the cams are removed I can reset the crank to TDC and start over.

I think this is what got me in trouble in the first place - turning the camshafts while the cam adjusters were installed. Doesn't that spin the cam adjusters slightly, which in turn spins the crank away from TDC?

I plan on trying this tonight, but the cam timing tools are such an exact fit and the crank bolt is not so precise. Can I just turn the camshafts using a wrench so that the tools fit on it?

At this point, the timing tools do not drop into place with the engine at 40 TDC. That's my whole problem. The timing tools are really close to fitting on, but definitely do not slide right in. That means my camshafts are not exactly at 40 TDC.

Jasonoff

If you had have 5 arms you can probably do it that way. You'd need to hold both cams, the engine, then once you unbolt the adjusters you'd need to move the cams to fit the tools on. As soon as you loosen an adjuster, the cam will rotate because it's under spring load from the valves.
That's your issue then. It sounds like it's only off by a few teeth on the timing gear. If you rotate the engine to fit the tools, then loosen both adjusters (with the tools installed) you will be able to move the engine back to 40 then re-torque both adjusters.

You shouldn't have to remove the cams. With the adjusters loosened, they will rotate with the engine while the cams are still locked in place.

BlackJacks

Reply to Engine
Listening to the video the mechanical timing sounds fine. It sounds like a spark related issue to me.

jaspirr

This is still something I'm considering. Let's assume everyone was right and that my cams are timed different than my engine. For example the engine is at 40* TDC and the cams are at 45*.

Would that really prevent the car from cranking over? I think the car would still start it would just run poorly and throw codes. If you watch the video of my car trying to start, it doesn't sound like a timing problem. It doesn't sound like the timing chain is 1 tooth off. It sounds like a car with just a basic spark/fuel/electric problem. If my timing chain was 1 tooth off wouldn't the car still start but just run poorly?

Regardless, the engine is apart again and I'll be adjusting the timing. I'm just concerned that when I put this all back together again it's still not going to be able to start for the same reason as before.

go team

THIS is what I had meant. Re-move the Cam. Loosen the adjusters at the Phaser bolt which should have been torqued to 115 Nm. Rotate the Camshafts to align with the tool level at the back MAKING SURE it aligns with the crank TDC. The engine doesn’t follow your crank tools it dictates them. The tools doesn’t magically put your crank at TDC. You have to follow the engine at TDC then the tools help adjust the top half of the drivetrain to match timing of the bottom half which is the crank. The crank controls the cams via the Timing Chain gear which controls the teeth in the Camshaft Adjusters. At the end both timing needs to be matched. Godspeed!