go team

I disagree, since at about 7 or 8 seconds the drivetrain chatter attempts to turn but is halted in a millisecond and disappears. It is most definitely timing. If it’s spark plug or anything electrical it could have thrown a code. No code means mechanical problem possibly install error that the ECU doesn’t recognize.

For all we know a valve is out and pushed against one of the pistons when you tried to start the car. This would prevent the crank from turning fully. Likely a few exhaust valves since the fuel smell is so strong. I would be worried about any damage to the piston and valves if the incorrectly timed car cranked over.

Jasonoff

DO NOT do this suggestion.

DO NOT loosen the cam adjusters without the tool in place. They will rotate on you and then you will have to remove both adjusters completely to get a wrench on BOTH cams to rotate them at the same time to make the tool fit.

jptaylor

https://youtu.be/T1k2Oe8EKjE

https://youtu.be/pR-sGlCfGz8

these are really good videos, helped me a lot!!!!

but as for the rotating crank to get it to line up I TOTALLY disagree....the engine should be dead on 40° in order for the crank to be in the right position, if the cams don't line up with the tool then you CAN rotate the cam to line it up as the cam IS under spring tension....rotate the CAM to line it up, NEVER THE CRANKSHAFT

Jasonoff

What's the harm in rotating the engine with the cams locked in and the adjuster bolts loosened?

jaspirr

Thanks for the videos. I've watched them all extensively. That Tasos guy is a lifesaver.

There seems to be two lines of thought for how to fix this:

Method 1

1) Turn the crank pulley CW/CCW until the timing tools line up on the cams. This puts the engine at something other than 40* TDC.
2) Install the timing tools. Flat blade on back of cams. Holding plate on top of cams. (Assuming the clamping plate for the front of the cam adjusters is not relevant here)
3) Loosen the phaser bolts from the cam adjusters.
4) Turn the crank back to 40* TDC. (Can this be done while the timing tools are installed on the cams? Won't the timing tools prevent the crank from turning?)
5) Now the crank is at TDC and the cams are still locked at TDC.
6) Install clamping plate on front of cam adjusters, torque down phaser bolts.
7) Double check that crank is still at TDC after torquing the phaser bolts.

My concerns: Trying to line up the cam timing tools by using the crank pulley seems imprecise. Turning the crank takes a lot of force and cannot be done in tiny little increments. Is it possible to turn the crank back to 40* TDC while the timing tools are installed? I guess the timing tools lock the cams in place but the adjusters are free to spin independently. Another concern is just generally not wanting to turn the crank CCW as there are a few horror stories out there of people slipping off the timing chain that way.

Method 2

1) Turn the cams using a 28mm wrench until the timing tools fit in them. This would cause the crank pulley to move away from 40* TDC.
2) Install the timing tools on the cams after they are wrenched into the correct spot.
3) Loosen phaser bolts
4) Turn crank back to 40 TDC
5) Install clamping plate on cam adjusters (I bolt this clamping plate to the block with the two guides, right? In all the videos I watched people just let it hang there without bolting it in)
6) Torque down phaser bolts, double check crank is at 40 TDC still.

My concerns: This is the method I did the first time when I replaced the lifters. I think using a wrench on the cams works to spin the cam adjusters, which then spins the crank pulley away from 40 TDC. Maybe my error the first time was that I used a wrench on the cams which turned the crank pulley, and I never went back to the crank pulley to put it at 40 TDC. So I just left it at, for example, 42 degrees, and reinstalled everything.

#2 is my preferred method because the timing tools are extremely precise, it took me an hour to line them up the first time, and I'm not confident that I can line them up using the crank pulley. But I admit I haven't attempted that yet until tonight.

AMG3.2

No. Turn the crank pulley so that the camshaft tools slide on. Remove the camshaft phasers. Remove the camshaft holding tool. Rotate engine to 40 degrees TDC. Time cams with tool. Install phasers.

Jasonoff

​​​​​​​Method 1 step 1: Turn the engine CW to 40° then move it slowly either CW or CCW to fit the tool. It's hard to move because your spark plugs are installed.
Method 1 step 4: Once the adjuster bolts are loose the cams won't move when you rotate the engine. The adjusters will rotate.

Method 2 will probably damage your cam. DO NOT try to rotate your engine via the cam.

jptaylor

because the ONLY constant is the crank position being 40°, the cams WILL rotate when you take them loose initially, so in order for them to be back in the exact right slot you have to "re-spring" them back to where they were.....as soon as you move the crank all bets are off. I remember having to work my cams back and forth with a combination wrench to get them to line back up with the tool(they would "fit" the tool but not perfectly flat)....no matter what you do to the cams the timing WILL be spot on so long as the crank position has remained constant....the system is designed to be brought back in time with everything at an exact position, once lost nothing else matters, pull the cams, put back to 40°, start over

Jasonoff

I'm not following?

With the flat bar in the back and the holder on the front the cam's don't move, not at all, not even a little bit (at least the tool I used didn't allow it). Once they are 100% locked to what's supposed to be 40° you can loosen both adjuster bolts which will decouple the cam from the timing gear. That will allow you to put the motor back to 40° by either rotating it a tiny bit CW or CCW.

jptaylor

in order to get the tools in place I had to rotate the cams manually

jaspirr

I had to do the same thing. The timing tools did not just slip right onto the cams as soon as I removed the valve cover. I used a wrench on the cams to move them into place so the tool would fit. There was some "feedback" when I did this - the cams often wanted to snap back to a default position after I turned them a little with the wrench.I think the result of this wrenching is that the engine moves away from 40* TDC.

The guide that I followed said to do this - turn the cams with the wrench until the timing tool fits on it.: "Installing the black holding piece can be difficult since the camshafts are under pressure via the tappets, but you'll have to slowly wiggle it on. Turning the camshafts with a large 28MM wrench (where the below picture has a blue arrow) helps the camshafts move into position so you can slide the holding piece down into position once the area in the pink arrow faces the right direction so that the holding device can slide on."

Is this incorrect and only the crank pulley should be turned in order to get the timing tool on the cams?

-----------------

On an unrelated issue, for those asking about the torque on the phaser bolts. Attached is a page from an official Daimler shop manual that says to torque them to 45 Nm and then 90 degrees. See end of page 4.

But there's also that Youtube instructional that says to torque them to 115 Nm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1k2...ature=youtu.be My best guess is that in the Youtube video they are torquing it down while the engine is out of the car and it's basically a new engine build?

AMG3.2

No that is correct. With the camshaft phaser off and the engine at 40 degrees TDC via the crank, use the 28MM wrench to rotate the cames until the timing tools fit. What are you getting stuck on? I don't get it.

jaspirr

That's backwards. You can't take the phaser bolts off until the timing tools are on. If the timing tools are not installed, the phaser bolt is just going to spin the cam if you try to unscrew it.

AMG3.2

Oh, yes, you're right. Trying to remember since I did them. So if that's the case, why aren't you rotating the engine until the cam tools fit on there? Then loosening the bolt then setting to 40 degrees and removing the phasers?

jaspirr

I'm going to try that tonight after work. Just kind of tossing ideas around on this forum until I can work on it again. Still a bit concerned that being a little smidge off on the timing might not be the reason for the car not starting but I have to start from the inside and fix timing first.

Storm363

There’ a Tasos video, where he shows how a failing camshaft adjuster works. He rotates the camshaft with the broken adjuster easily, and the working one doesn’t rotate. So be sure to check them all. Here’s the video:

https://youtu.be/ZXEEvyyqVx0

jptaylor

I still FULLY disagree with moving the crank from 40° to get the tool to seat, you are changing the position of the entire timing system....when you wrench the cams you are NOT moving the crank at all you are simply overcoming the tension of the tappets so that the cams are where they are not only supposed to be but where they are SUPPOSED to be while under tension with the crank at 40°.....IF you move the crank at all the tension will change on the cams so when you roll it back to the 40° mark they may be over/under tensioned which WILL affect the ultimate position the phasers THINK they are in

Jasonoff

If the cam holding tools are installed, the cams are 100% set at what should be 40° at the crank. The motor can be wherever it wants to be as long as the adjuster gears align with the timing sprocket gears which is what happened to the OP.

If you then loosen the adjusters, the cams are completely decoupled from the engine, as in, the adjusters can rotate with the engine via the timing sprocket. Heck, you can completely remove the adjusters if you want but it's not necessary.

I'm not sure what over/under tension you are talking about. How can the you change tension on the cams when they're locked in place by the tools with the adjusters loose?

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're talking about or you're not understanding the mechanics?

AMG3.2

JP, you, and I have all done headbolts successfully. I think we're just all getting confused with the back and forth.

jptaylor

agreed, but what I was saying was when TRYING to align the tools to install on the cams, not after, so the adjusters are still laying on the table....ie, NOTHING is locked in place at that point, so if you turn the crank THEN to get the cams to align for the tool to fall in place (instead of using the wrench to tension the cams back into place against the tappet tension) you are moving all the other components which WILL affect what the timing is when you rotate it back to 40°

Jasonoff

Why unbolt the cams without the tool in place? They're going to both rotate on you just like they did when you did your bolts. It's a pain in the *** to get them both into position to fit the tool on.
What components are you talking about?

My suggestion is to drop the tool in with the adjusters still bolted to the cams so you can rotate the cams with the crank. One hand on the breaker bar handle turning the crank, the other hand on the bar at the back of the cams. You will be able to see which way the engine needs to turn to fit the tool on. Once the rear bar fits in place the front tool will drop right in. With the front tool secured you can loosen both adjuster bolts and the cams won't budge from that position.

Then and only then you can put the crank at the 40° mark with the cams held at the 40° lotion by the tools. Once it's at 40°, slap on the timing tool plate to adjust the tone ring duedad, then re-torque the adjusters and that side is done and timed correctly.

Repeat for the other side.

Done.

go team

Apologies but you can unbolt the adjusters or keep them on. It DOESNT matter. As long as it is time properly IN THE END. Typing on the iphone versus on the computer does these. No wonder OP is having issues. I will let Jasonoff finish his advice as I feel he is still somewhat correct.. I still hope this car turns over. I am almost 100% sure it is just the timing even being a tooth off because the crank pulley wasn't double checked when setting timing up at the cams.

The simple thing is to relieve the valve train system of any push from all the camshafts so that you can turn the crank a little safely to 40 degrees.
Reinstall the Camshaft and Adjusters and phasers using the Timing tools while crank is at 40 degrees.
But this constant back and forth is overly complicating the OPs day. Follow what you will. Your timing is off as I have already said. Definitely put up a first start video regardless of what you do. I want to hear a chatterless engine!

ec_nova

just going to chime in and remind you... once you get your timing set, and car back together, do a few flood-clears if it doesn't start the very first time. You have made multiple attempts to start the car without the fuel being burnt, and I lost count how many other techs I've seen fix a car (after many failed cranks) then think they didn't fix it because it won't start due to the plugs being fuel-fouled.

Hopefully that doesn't happen to you, but it DOES happen, so just keep it in the back of your head!

jaspirr

Alright, so as I begin my work for the night the first thing I notice is this. Does this mean anything? Or is it just exhaust soot that has nothing to do with the engine? It is flaky and breaks apart like sand. Odorless.

jptaylor

Never in any of the research that I did prior did I find any reference to installing the cams and THEN bringing the engine to 40°, you SET the engine at 40° and then install the cams based solely on the constant that the engine is at 40°....and the components I was referencing was every single rotating component in the entire engine moves when you rotate the crank, but when you leave the crank the **** alone at 40° and install the cams by using only the resistance of the tappets to align the tools then ONLY the cam is moving as the tappet is merely "giving".....


....and as to the cranking afterward I can't speak to anyone else's but when I got done I keyed to ON 3x to reprime the fuel system and when I turned to start it fired IMMEDIATELY.....


​​​​​​......and I STILL think it's most likely a sensor related issue and not a timing related issue