C63 AMG (W204) 2008 - 2015

Engine won't turn over after replacing lifters

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Old 12-07-2017, 12:17 AM
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But on a lighter note Jason your buckets look like mine did, except with 100k mi less....mine were literally mirror polished and yours look about the same....I assume your journals and lobes looked just as good
Old 12-07-2017, 07:23 AM
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Er, upper left one on the second pic looks like there was a gouge in it. Unless that’s a reflection.
Old 12-07-2017, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jptaylor
But on a lighter note Jason your buckets look like mine did, except with 100k mi less....mine were literally mirror polished and yours look about the same....I assume your journals and lobes looked just as good
They were in excellent shape as well so I didn't bother taking any close ups.

All my pics are here if you want to take a look --> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...V9HSklQY1BUYVE
Originally Posted by BLKROKT
Er, upper left one on the second pic looks like there was a gouge in it. Unless that’s a reflection.
That's just super contaminated oil. All the bucket faces were buttery smooth.
Old 12-07-2017, 09:30 AM
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Jasonoff
They were in excellent shape as well so I didn't bother taking any close ups.

All my pics are here if you want to take a look --> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...V9HSklQY1BUYVE

That's just super contaminated oil. All the bucket faces were buttery smooth.
Did you change your oil afterwards Jason?!?!?!?
Old 12-07-2017, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jptaylor
Did you change your oil afterwards Jason?!?!?!?
Yes, but only once, so my engine is probably garbage.
Old 12-07-2017, 10:40 AM
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....zero compression left due to cylinder wall scoring, blowby like hell, prolly needs a rebuild by now
Old 12-07-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by BLKROKT
What just happened? Things got a little weird there...

I apologize I just like to put a lot of effort in what I do regardless of what it is. When I see someone providing less than stellar advice and ransacking other peoples proper advice it gets me going.

Originally Posted by Jasonoff
Your master engine builder buddy, go team, didn't get the sarcasm. Thinks 2 oil changes are required after swapping out valve buckets.

Sometimes you gotta know when to stop giving a fück and let some emo have their glory.
/endrant. How's that oil change coming?

Originally Posted by jptaylor
....zero compression left due to cylinder wall scoring, blowby like hell, prolly needs a rebuild by now
Someone thinks two oil changes is right but I'm pretty sure that was not your recommendation or mine. Good thing Jasonoff's engine will never need work.

On a sidenote with lifter talk. Has anyone used anything other than the updated lifters? I'm talking about the black series valve buckets from weistec. I'm wondering if that is a good end all be all forever answer to never having to open the head again. I realize that the camshafts from the sls won't work because it's tuned for high rpms versus the low-mid range rpms that our cars have and wonder if that characeristic is shared by these valve buckets. If anyone isnt sure about these they are right here
P.S. it is $1999 and if you have a problem with that well...

Last edited by go team; 12-07-2017 at 02:32 PM. Reason: weistec lifters
Old 12-07-2017, 02:29 PM
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After rebate at Wally's World you can get three excellent 229.5 oils for under $2.50/qt. Hardly a consideration I would think and that's five changes for the $100.
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by go team

On a sidenote with lifter talk. Has anyone used anything other than the updated lifters? I'm talking about the black series valve buckets from weistec. I'm wondering if that is a good end all be all forever answer to never having to open the head again. I realize that the camshafts from the sls won't work because it's tuned for high rpms versus the low-mid range rpms that our cars have. If anyone isnt sure about these they are right here
P.S. it is $1999 and if you have a problem with that don't reply
This stuff looks like nothing more than marketing BS to me. The "regular" SLS lifters are only 'partially coated with anti-friction coating' whereas the "black" SLS lifters are 'fully coated'? Come on. An extra thousand dollars for "more" anti-friction coating?

The black ones are also "designed for high RPM and racing" - again, how is that any different than the regular SLS lifters?

I could see someone buying the $999 lifters for peace of mind. But the $1999 extra-super-duper lifters seem to provide no extra benefit above the $999 ones.
Old 12-07-2017, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jaspirr
This stuff looks like nothing more than marketing BS to me. The "regular" SLS lifters are only 'partially coated with anti-friction coating' whereas the "black" SLS lifters are 'fully coated'? Come on. An extra thousand dollars for "more" anti-friction coating?

The black ones are also "designed for high RPM and racing" - again, how is that any different than the regular SLS lifters?

I could see someone buying the $999 lifters for peace of mind. But the $1999 extra-super-duper lifters seem to provide no extra benefit above the $999 ones.
My dealer, believe it or not, can source the $999 ones for $700. But can't give me the black series ones since I don't drive a black series SLS.
Old 12-07-2017, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by go team
My dealer, believe it or not, can source the $999 ones for $700. But can't give me the black series ones since I don't drive a black series SLS.
That's barely more expensive than the regular M156 lifters, so I would take them for $700 any day.
Old 12-07-2017, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by go team
Someone thinks two oil changes is right but I'm pretty sure that was not your recommendation or mine.
Originally Posted by jptaylor
don't forget to change that oil pretty damn quick, I actually changed mine before startup and then again after about 30min of runtime
Originally Posted by Jasonoff
Why? He only swapped out valve buckets. That would be a huge waste of money...
Was twice not the recommendation by jptaylor that you also backed up?
Old 12-07-2017, 02:51 PM
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hahaha..when i did my lifters my buddy ran new oil and filter...ran for 30 minutes then drained and replaced oil and filter. previous to install of lifters he soaked them in oil for 24 hours.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Jasonoff
Was twice not the recommendation by jptaylor that you also backed up?
Potato PotAtO. No need to get your panties up in a bunch resident quoter.
Old 12-07-2017, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by hachiroku
hahaha..when i did my lifters my buddy ran new oil and filter...ran for 30 minutes then drained and replaced oil and filter. previous to install of lifters he soaked them in oil for 24 hours.
I have NEVER soaked lifters prior to installing them....before I had ever attempted that job I always heard "soak in oil overnight" "soak in oil overnight"....but then I had an old old OLD school engine builder that told me don't EVER soak them overnight.....the reasoning he gave was that if you soaked them and filled them with oil you were removing the lifters ability to "squat", was the term he used, as being filled with oil made them hydraulically static which he said could heavily increase the potential for engine damage during initial start up.....may have truth to it, make be snake oil-BUT-he had prolly 40+ years experience at that point and had forgotten more engine knowledge than I'd ever even attain....just my $0.02
Old 12-07-2017, 06:26 PM
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there isn't a need as the factory ones are sealed in an air tight oil encased bag. my mechanic just wanted to proceed with what he's always done.
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by go team
Potato PotAtO. No need to get your panties up in a bunch resident quoter.
You should have your learning disability diagnosed. There could be a cure for it...
Originally Posted by jaspirr
That's barely more expensive than the regular M156 lifters, so I would take them for $700 any day.
Where's the before vid brah?
Old 12-07-2017, 09:27 PM
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You should have your learning disability diagnosed. There could be a cure for it...
Learning disabilities has in fact been proven several times as more of a delay and can in fact be fixed! But panty wearing... that one is for life! At least it’s a socially accepted norm nowadays! I don’t see a video just one fool arguing with another on the net! LOL. Calcite white is such a shyte color.
Old 08-27-2018, 10:41 PM
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Cam Tightening Torque

Originally Posted by go team
THIS is what I had meant. Re-move the Cam. Loosen the adjusters at the Phaser bolt which should have been torqued to 115 Nm. Rotate the Camshafts to align with the tool level at the back MAKING SURE it aligns with the crank TDC. The engine doesn’t follow your crank tools it dictates them. The tools doesn’t magically put your crank at TDC. You have to follow the engine at TDC then the tools help adjust the top half of the drivetrain to match timing of the bottom half which is the crank. The crank controls the cams via the Timing Chain gear which controls the teeth in the Camshaft Adjusters. At the end both timing needs to be matched. Godspeed!
I
8/27/18

I started working on my 2007 E63 in December of 2017, but just tried starting her up after so much time and found that after 40 secs of starting time it sounded so BAD that I just instinctively couldn't let it keep going. Good thing, I think, since I then tried starting her up the next morning only to realize it wouldn't turn over at all! I verified this by trying to manually crank, but it wouldn't budge. Turning counterclockwise however, I was able to smoothly turn it back some. I know for certain that I set the timing up well as I DID check the positioning of the Crank Shaft after each tightening of the Cam Adjusters with them both being tightened only after both Cam Adjusters were aligned via the proper tools. Being that I only had one set/side of Cam Lockdown tools, I made sure that after locking both Cams down before tightening the Cam Adjusters the CrankShaft was set to 40 degrees before tightening up the Cam Phasers. Only after checking the Camshafts again did I proceed in dismounting the Cam Timing lock tools from the one side and subsequently mounting them on the other side.

BUT This is where I might have gone wrong after reading this post!! The WIS instructions I have, if memory serves, instructed me to tighten the Cam Adjuster Phaser Bolts to 45Nm + 90 degrees! I don't know about what you all might think about that, but I can't imagine + 90 Degrees being equal to 115Nm!!!! I've been wracking my brain wondering after doing my work why after 40 seconds it would all the sudden stop cranking!! I verified this by trying to manually turn the crankshaft but it wouldn't budge. I did manage to smoothly turn it counterclockwise a few degrees but same deal going back the other way when I reached that point. Initially I thought maybe the guys that I had rebuild my HEAdS may have inadvertently swapped the Camshafts from one Head to another such that when I Unwrapped them each from the plastic they were wrapped up with the opposing sides Camshafts and kept with thier respective opposing Heads! As such, It may have been installed incorrectly, to say the least!!! Of course I had marked each with Oil based Markers, Green for Driver Intake and Orange for Driver Exhaust, and same for the other side, so I'm more then fairly sure that each were on there respective sides. Nonetheless, My main concern specifically is that the Camshafts from the driver side may have ended up to the passenger side and visa versa. Not something I really think may have happened but amidst the the whole rebuilding process, I must concede that it's a possibility! If so, if passenger side was on Driver side etc., then I imagine the Valves would have been firing *** backwards and caused the 6 of 8 misfires!!! However, if the Cam Adjusters became out of sync as a result of them being tightened so lightly, that would be almost more relieving as the valves themselves may not be so out of sync hitting the Piston Heads because I got a freeze up in the Starting Process after having it run for that initial 40 seconds!!!!

Any thoughts???

Last edited by E63007; 10-12-2018 at 11:53 AM.
Old 08-28-2018, 07:33 AM
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Uh. Maybe take it all apart and see what the problem is?

Also double-check the timing to cross something easy off the list of possible issues.

Originally Posted by Jasonoff
If your engine turned at all when you unbolted the cams, lets say one or two teeth (the timing sprocket both cam adjusters mesh with) and you re-installed everything. The cams would be aligned for 40deg but your engine was not.

To verify timing, align the crank to 40deg and verify the cam tool still fits properly on both sides. If it doesn't, you need to loosen the cams and re-adjust it.

Last edited by BLKROKT; 08-28-2018 at 07:57 AM.
Old 08-28-2018, 07:42 PM
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get a cheap scope and maybe take a look in each plug hole for contact marks on the piston tops, next probably get the valve covers back off and start reconfirming everything including the cams are on the right bank.
Old 08-28-2018, 08:03 PM
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I second the scope...there is no need in delvijg further if your pistons have holes punched in them or you can clearly see where the valves made contact. If you are good to go after scoping I would pull it back apart to where you had all cams in your hands, reset engine to timing mark, verify which cam goes where via the part numbers, reinstall cams, reinstall adjuaters, button up the heads, button up the intake, do 2 stanzas of The Cupid Shuffle, turn the key and pray like a ***** that you got it right the second time....


However I will say this, from what I understand and also from experience doing my own I don't honestly feel that either the timing being off or the cams on the wrong side could be the issue as the cam tools will only align the cams for installation of the adjusters if everything is perfectly lined up. Even if you could get the tools to line up on the cam tabs the adjusters wouldn't line up for installation as the cams, adjusters, timing and cam tools are designed to work in sync together with ALL components in one position and one position ONLY.
Old 09-01-2018, 10:45 AM
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I have two things that jump out at me from this thread, albeit most all suggestions were relevant, however these two things seem to have been slightly mentioned but not really confirmed which, as I reflect on what may have caused my issue, I suspect may be the reason for my currrent dilemma.

1. "Tightening the Cam Bolt to 115Nm"!?!? I understand Weisitech Instructions call for tightening their "re-usable" Cam Bolts up to that spec BUT the WIS for my E63 states that it should be 45Nm + 90 degree as mentioned by the founder of this post. I can surmise that the +90 might equate to possibly 115 Nm in the end, but cannot confirm. My concern is whether I tightened the Cam Bolt tight enough as I too am fairly positive I set up the Timing "correctly" to TDC (ie-40 degrees) as I did NOT overlook the positioning of the Crankshaft while dialing in the timing and then tightening up each CamBolt. Since I only had it running for 30-40 secs MAx before shutting her down and then next day tried turning her over only to find a "No Start" situation. I verified that the Crank was indeed "locked" but would turn counterclockwise, so I suspect a Valve being way out of timing, which would happen if say the Cam Bolt slipped as a result of not being tightened down enough (i.e.-115Nm)???

2. "Turning Camshaft until it locks". Either the poster is referring to using the straight steel plate in the Cam Adjuster tool while placing it at the back of each Camshaft whilst turning each manually with a wrench while each are disconnected/loosened from the Cam Adjuster although the poster may be referring to Tasos touching on this while he's got the Cam Adjuster opened up. He doesn't show how one is supposed to confirm it is "locked" in position before mating it up with camshaft without taking it apart first. Moreover, it's unclear how one is to lock it in place before setting up Cam Timing. I took all my Cam Adjusters apart, one by one (except when I was comparing my passenger Intake and Exhaust with the two new ones I had purchased and determined someone had literally put the inner sprocket which holds the oil channel determining the pressure exerted in the hole where "locking barrel" is placed upside down!!) and I could see how one could manually make sure these were to lock is place by rotating that sprocket until the barrel lines up with the depression thus locking the Adjuster in place. Then one would bolt on the top. However once done, I admit I didn't check to confirm that each were locked before tightening down the Cam Bolts.?!?! The spring in there pushes down on the "barrel" which precisely fits in a depression with a channel emanating from it that oil is pushed through. If pushed from the "bottom-i.e.- from the front via the soliniods, it pushes up on the barrel and thus releases the barrel from locking the inner sprocket. Even if they were "unlocked" I can't attribute that to solely being the reason why there is a definite lock (i.e.-erroneously open-extended valve) in the Crank going clockwise, but it may be so?? I imagine if it were indeed unlocked while being locked down with the Cam Bolt, inevitably that would erroneously effect Cam Timing, but not such much as to cause a valve which may be open early-late to hit the piston right?

In any case, I most likely will defer to the Cam Bolt perhaps not being tightened hard enough thus causing the Cam to lose position to the Cam Adjuster which, in effect, could very much cause a valve to erroneously open. In so doing, I am guessing that since I cannot turn the Crank clockwise(i.e.-piston hitting an open valve) I'll have to try to turn counterclockwise (after disco'ing the Serp-belt) in order to align the Cams in position to install the Cam lock tools in order to remove the Cam Bolt. However, I can foresee that posing a problem if I can't rotate backwards far enough?? As such, I plan on having to deliberately unbolt the Cam Cap bolts, if that's the case, in order to remove and reposition each Camshaft and then use the Cam Locking tools to unbolt the Cam Bolts. I'll do a probe of each spark plug hole to see where it's hanging up as well as to inspect each piston top although it may be hard to detect any piston slap because I thoroughly cleaned the piston tops of any and all Carbon buildup prior to installing the Rebuilt Heads.

But alas, until I get back and use a scope down each spark hole I won't find where the problem is. Of course then it would be off with the Valve Covers to confirm the wrong timing. I'm just hoping I stopped in time so as to have avoided potential disaster with my "new" valve train but that remains a very unassured hope!!

Last edited by E63007; 10-12-2018 at 11:52 AM.
Old 10-12-2018, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ec_nova
just going to chime in and remind you... once you get your timing set, and car back together, do a few flood-clears if it doesn't start the very first time. You have made multiple attempts to start the car without the fuel being burnt, and I lost count how many other techs I've seen fix a car (after many failed cranks) then think they didn't fix it because it won't start due to the plugs being fuel-fouled.

Hopefully that doesn't happen to you, but it DOES happen, so just keep it in the back of your head!
10/10/18

I tried to start my 07' E63 after rebuilding the Heads, New Headbolts, Refurbished Intake, Racing Brake Rotors/pads etc., and let it run for 30-40 seconds max before I shut her off as it sounded aweful. The STAR Diagnostics indicated there was a misfire in almost all the chambers!!! Being that it sounded like it was starving for fuel coupled with the fact that had been nearly 8 months since I started work on her on jack stands, I figured the fuel rail may not have been primed properly but after reading many of these posts I am to understand that "ignition on" alone should prime the rail. STAR also indicated power to pumps as well as the positioning of the Cams. However, when I tried the next day to start her up it wouldn't turn over at all!!

As you can imagine, my mind was flooded with thoughts of a possible Valve keeping the engine from turning over which would mean the timing was radically off somehow or that possibly the timing chain was at fault or a rod had been tweaked!!! I then tried to manually turn the Crank CW, but it was indeed "stuck". Turning it CCW, however, I was able to go back a few notches but didn't push it. So I ended up pulling the Valve Covers and spark plugs. In retrospect,, I should have pulled the spark plugs first because after the release of the vacuum (i.e.-hydrolock) caused by two flooded Chambers 1&2 from firewall on driver side near the fuel inlet to the rail, I was able to manually turn the Crank but when doing so, it spat out gas from each hole. If I kept the Valve Covers on, it would have been much cleaner. Instead, as soon as I saw it spit up the first sign of gas which caught me offguard, I quickly used a shop towel to absorb what came out and the used my trusty suction tool to suck out the rest and then stuffing a shop towel in hole for good measure. I admit I was relieved to discover this "hydrolock" occurred rather than the other nightmare scenarios I had imagined. It also really hit home what "hydrolock" does, that is, forms a vacuum whereby the fluid filled chamber inhibits any movement of the Piston! I just lucky I turned it off so quickly, at least I think I am since I haven't yet started her up.

I also noticed that two of my Cam Adjusters were themselves loose. I did take them apart since they had been taken apart previously and put back together again ***-backwardly, so it was absolutely necessary however the loosening of the screws on the back plates of the Cam Adjuster has me thinking maybe the 45Nm + 90* may not be tight enough considering the oily surface of the Cam Shaft threads??? Has anyone here ever used locktight as my use of brakleen on both the threads and inner threads of the camshaft didn't seem to hold with the prescribed WIS tightening reference. And yes, the timing was indeed off after 30-40 seconds!! Hmmm?

I might mention too earlier in this thread there was the question of being able to manually turn the Crank backwards (i.e.-CCW-Counterclockwise). My understanding from Tasos' videos is that when the Cams are Locked in place with the Cam Tool, if turning the Crank in order to get the tool in place caused you to go past 40*, then in order to properly load up the chain tensioner one would have to manually turn back (CCW) the Crank some 30-40* then (CW) to 40*. On the other hand, one could loosen all the Cam Adjuster Cam Bolts and remove the tools to allow the Cams to seat freely, you could then rotate CW the Crank 360*, which is advisable anyway to ensure there is no binding occurring with the Cam Adjuster Teeth, to 40*, thereby ensuring proper load on the chain tensioner then lock in the Cam shafts using a crescent wrench or 27mm, set the timing, tighten the Cam Bolts and you should be golden, assuming the 45Nm + 90* is in fact tight enough????

In reference to the helpful posts above, I did end up getting a wireless scope paired with my iPad and confirmed there were no broken valves, just glistening clean chambers and Pistons as I spent hours cleaning all that up!

Last edited by E63007; 10-12-2018 at 11:59 AM.

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