High Long Term Fuel Trims with ROW Airboxes
Member
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 148
Likes: 12
C63 AMG PPP Saloon
Just put rows back in and pro drys and drove around for a bit.
fully warmed up I'm seeing 15-18 on both banks but either one can be 5 points off depending on how the car wants to be.
under throttle I'm seeing 13-15 and stays pretty solid.the thing I noticed is with stock boxes I was seeing negative numbers and around 3-5 on both banks.
just as I thought the car was running perfectly and pulling really hard I got a check engine light.
bank 1 stock rich code and bank 1 post cat code too rich.
****ing hate having headers as it's just a huge pain in the *** and needs to be custom tuned to dial out these o2 codes.
I can't have gone through sensors this fast can I ? 3k miles and no issues and now codes again.
fully warmed up I'm seeing 15-18 on both banks but either one can be 5 points off depending on how the car wants to be.
under throttle I'm seeing 13-15 and stays pretty solid.the thing I noticed is with stock boxes I was seeing negative numbers and around 3-5 on both banks.
just as I thought the car was running perfectly and pulling really hard I got a check engine light.
bank 1 stock rich code and bank 1 post cat code too rich.
****ing hate having headers as it's just a huge pain in the *** and needs to be custom tuned to dial out these o2 codes.
I can't have gone through sensors this fast can I ? 3k miles and no issues and now codes again.
I'm on my second set in 1500 miles and about 10 months
my car has ipe headers and sports cats with row boxes as standard, dry filters and a carbon intake
car runs well and pulls hard just wild fuel trims
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 42
Likes: 5
B5S4, 2013 P31 C63
Just wanted to chime in with some data from my logging earlier this evening. ROW airboxes, EC V7 tune, at idle:
LTFT Bank 1 - 21%
LTFT Bank 2 - 15%
Readings would vary under throttle, but generally not lower than at idle.
Same hesitation under low RPMs as OP and others, too. More acute with cold weather. AFR 14.65.
From a random website:
"Unmetered air" would seem at first blush to match up with the air gaps identified by posters above, but it sounds like the DIY fixes on ROWs hasn't cured the issue.
LTFT Bank 1 - 21%
LTFT Bank 2 - 15%
Readings would vary under throttle, but generally not lower than at idle.
Same hesitation under low RPMs as OP and others, too. More acute with cold weather. AFR 14.65.
From a random website:
Running too lean – High positive fuel corrections can be traced to MAF and O2 sensor faults, vacuum leaks from intake gaskets/hoses, unmetered air (intake snorkel leak), clogged or dirty fuel injectors, fuel delivery issues, and exhaust restrictions such as a clogged catalytic converter.
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 723
Likes: 115
From: Long Island
'16 CLS63S
I want to bring this thread back to get some info from the members that look at or monitor the long term trims. Currently working with eurocharged to dial in a e85 tune. After swapping injectors, they have sent me 2 different tunes to accommodate the larger injectors to bring those long term trims as close to zero as possible before making a tune solely for e85. For the longest time (ever since I began looking at trims like last year) there has always been a big difference between banks as far as long trims are concerned.
Currently the long trims look like this on e85 and ROW boxes
Currently the long trims look like this on e85 and ROW boxes
Idle
+21 and +3
Cruise
+6 and -2
It was suggested to try and figure out the cause for the large difference between banks before wasting time creating a new e85 tune. Just in case the issue gets fixed later on and the tune needs to be adjusted again. I think its some kind of leak but cant isolate it (clamps are tight, boxes are snug, screws are tight). I even put some lube around the rubber edges of the filter and the Y pipe with no changes. I notice the vacuum at idle is low (-10) so maybe the IM gasket? Any thoughts?
It was suggested to try and figure out the cause for the large difference between banks before wasting time creating a new e85 tune. Just in case the issue gets fixed later on and the tune needs to be adjusted again. I think its some kind of leak but cant isolate it (clamps are tight, boxes are snug, screws are tight). I even put some lube around the rubber edges of the filter and the Y pipe with no changes. I notice the vacuum at idle is low (-10) so maybe the IM gasket? Any thoughts?
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,697
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2005 E55
Use your old boxes without the charcoal filter.your trims will be alot better.
I took my row boxes out a while ago.i have my tuning almost spot on and get .08 on one bank and -4.9 on the other and they stay pretty solid.
before they would bounce around 10-20% and be all over the place with the row boxes.
it's the cone on the stock boxes that directs the air better over the meter i think.
i have done it like 5 times and every time i put the row boxes on my trims go whack.
I took my row boxes out a while ago.i have my tuning almost spot on and get .08 on one bank and -4.9 on the other and they stay pretty solid.
before they would bounce around 10-20% and be all over the place with the row boxes.
it's the cone on the stock boxes that directs the air better over the meter i think.
i have done it like 5 times and every time i put the row boxes on my trims go whack.
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 723
Likes: 115
From: Long Island
'16 CLS63S
Use your old boxes without the charcoal filter.your trims will be alot better.
I took my row boxes out a while ago.i have my tuning almost spot on and get .08 on one bank and -4.9 on the other and they stay pretty solid.
before they would bounce around 10-20% and be all over the place with the row boxes.
it's the cone on the stock boxes that directs the air better over the meter i think.
i have done it like 5 times and every time i put the row boxes on my trims go whack.
I took my row boxes out a while ago.i have my tuning almost spot on and get .08 on one bank and -4.9 on the other and they stay pretty solid.
before they would bounce around 10-20% and be all over the place with the row boxes.
it's the cone on the stock boxes that directs the air better over the meter i think.
i have done it like 5 times and every time i put the row boxes on my trims go whack.
Its just this large difference between banks that we are trying to diagnose before adjusting the tune anymore. If whatever is causing that one bank to read much higher is corrected, then those trims will be fine and the tune can be finally adjusted for e85
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Joined: Nov 2004
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2005 E55
Ive gone back n forth between stock boxes (no charcoal) and row many times and yes, I have always noticed the long trims with row boxes goes much higher. However, eurocharged first adjusted the tune for larger injectors with stock boxes and the trims were much better. Then they re-adjusted the tune when I swapped the row's back and thats where Im at now with the numbers above.
Its just this large difference between banks that we are trying to diagnose before adjusting the tune anymore. If whatever is causing that one bank to read much higher is corrected, then those trims will be fine and the tune can be finally adjusted for e85
Its just this large difference between banks that we are trying to diagnose before adjusting the tune anymore. If whatever is causing that one bank to read much higher is corrected, then those trims will be fine and the tune can be finally adjusted for e85
changed all o2s,new plugs,new coils,new injectors,took out cats thinking one was more clogged etc.
it could be the fuel rail as one side might have higher pressure from the other side as the drivers side gets the fuel line first and close and our cars dont use a looped fuel rail.
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Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Texas
10 C six trizzle
Im pretty late to the game on this one.... but I'll solve the mystery for you. Im guessing none of you realize there is a setting for row air boxes in the ecu. This changes the calibration tables for the mass air sensors. Im assuming most ya'll havent modified this or arent running a good tune that corrects this. You're welcome.
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12 C63BS Magno Alanite Grey, 25 X5 Msport, 08 BMW E93, Ducati Hyper 698
Im pretty late to the game on this one.... but I'll solve the mystery for you. Im guessing none of you realize there is a setting for row air boxes in the ecu. This changes the calibration tables for the mass air sensors. Im assuming most ya'll havent modified this or arent running a good tune that corrects this. You're welcome.
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 723
Likes: 115
From: Long Island
'16 CLS63S
Yea I've been told the same.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Sep 2016
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From: NY
2010 C63 2019 GLA45
Originally Posted by roadtalontsi
Im pretty late to the game on this one.... but I'll solve the mystery for you. Im guessing none of you realize there is a setting for row air boxes in the ecu. This changes the calibration tables for the mass air sensors. Im assuming most ya'll havent modified this or arent running a good tune that corrects this. You're welcome.
Can you give me more details as if where this setting is?
I thought it is under ME97 motor electronics and display of coding data.
I've looked twice, I don't see it.
Is it under central gateway ?
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From: Kitchener, ON
2010 C63 AMG
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Joined: Jul 2014
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From: So Cal
86 Targa, 91 560SEL, 06 E55 Estate, 13 C2S, 21 MACAN GTS, 05 R6 Track, 15 R3 RACE BIKE
Installed the Carbonio boxes and measured with dashcomand 29-30 both sides. Not sure how accurate DC is but the car actually runs better with CF box vs ROW. ROW had all kinds of weird hesitations in C on easy acceleration. Now it is smooth, enjoyable and S+ seems better too. Going for a custom tune next week with HD Tuning. Will have more accurate data then and report back.
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Joined: Apr 2010
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From: PDX
1999 C43, 2008 P30 E63, 2014 SQ5, 2024 Model Y Performance
Im pretty late to the game on this one.... but I'll solve the mystery for you. Im guessing none of you realize there is a setting for row air boxes in the ecu. This changes the calibration tables for the mass air sensors. Im assuming most ya'll havent modified this or arent running a good tune that corrects this. You're welcome.
