Camshaft adjuster pin flip fix/trick?
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Camshaft adjuster pin flip fix/trick?
*** For those interested in doing this, just watch the updated long version in post #14 - very thorough ***
Numb from research, I'm almost confident enough to DIY the headbolts on my '10 c63 w/96K. Putting together a list of everything I should address while I'm at it and came across the following video that talks about flipping a pin in the camshaft adjusters primarily to address a tapping noise at start-up(which I don't have) but a given(for this mechanic) at 150km - ff to 3:00...
Seems pretty straight forward and 'appears' separate from locking the backlash (opposite side) but unsure? Searched, but can only find it mentioned in this guys video (has several on the m156). Anyone here do this and can comment?
Numb from research, I'm almost confident enough to DIY the headbolts on my '10 c63 w/96K. Putting together a list of everything I should address while I'm at it and came across the following video that talks about flipping a pin in the camshaft adjusters primarily to address a tapping noise at start-up(which I don't have) but a given(for this mechanic) at 150km - ff to 3:00...
Seems pretty straight forward and 'appears' separate from locking the backlash (opposite side) but unsure? Searched, but can only find it mentioned in this guys video (has several on the m156). Anyone here do this and can comment?
Last edited by gmore; 05-30-2018 at 04:03 PM. Reason: new info/video
#3
Super Member
well it Tasos say it then it may as well be gospel truth as far as im concerned....i WISH i had known about that pin before I did my headbolts a year ago. When i saw this vid a while back i did the whole face-palm and have been contemplating opening mine back up JUST to flip or replace that pin.
#4
Member
Thread Starter
well it Tasos say it then it may as well be gospel truth as far as im concerned....i WISH i had known about that pin before I did my headbolts a year ago. When i saw this vid a while back i did the whole face-palm and have been contemplating opening mine back up JUST to flip or replace that pin.
#6
Member
Thread Starter
No not yet. Been nursing a re-occurring neck injury but soon I hope.
I had never noticed the cold start-up chatter from the driver seat but my brother pointed out to me so I'll have a point reference when I do (video below) with hopefully a successful b4/after. Will post when I do.
I had never noticed the cold start-up chatter from the driver seat but my brother pointed out to me so I'll have a point reference when I do (video below) with hopefully a successful b4/after. Will post when I do.
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#8
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Thread Starter
spring guide stuck to plate
remove with magnetic tool
Finally able to get to HBs and flip the pins(DS only thus far). I expected to move at a snails pace but a 'comedic' series of events has had me moving even slower(eg: elusive 40TDC at crank w and w/o plugs with a later discovered warped rear cam straight edge/lock tool adding insult to injury). Anywho, other than the 5 T30 adjuster plate bolts(which have been by far the tightest ones to remove up until this point), flipping the pin(at least the method I chose) is arguably the easiest thing I've done thus far.
The most prudent thing to do is to probably dissasemble everything, clean, lube, flip pin and reassemble (as shown partially in the video and 'probably' not all that difficult). Given my luck(aka, lack of skills) I chose to...
1: Remove 5-bolts and top plate (note: spring guide was stuck to plate on both I&G - see pic)
2: Remove spring
3: Remove pin with a flat tip screwdriver with magnet attached (see pic)
4: Flip pin and reinstall
5: Re-assemble in reverse order
Tips...
* Given that WIS, Tasos, and all DIYs recommend inserting a bolt(or timing tool gear lock) on the adjuster prior to removal it's obviously an important step, but the bolt is more of a plug(not threaded at least not on mine) and an M5-8 is pretty loose(can easily use a M5-10 and maybe longer again... on mine) and my timing tool at a tad over 5mm thick wouldn't completely fit thru to the 2nd gear - be very careful with this step (could easily drop into 'chain cavity') - in addition to blocking off that cavilty with lint-free towels(as best I can) cleaned that area and taped the screw in place. Once the adjusters are off, wasn't difficult to replace with a longer screw in place(no gear tension) and assume is very important on the re-install.
* the 5 plate bolts are pretty difficult to remove (at least holding the adjuster by hand) - I sprayed a cloth with brake cleaner and cleaned/dryed bolt heads with a torx bit to get a better grip. I haven't checked WIS yet but doubt there's a torque spec for re-install but will post if I find
* If by some chance you get the pin sides confused, the 'new' side(one that gos face down) has a tiny circle in the center - I assume worn by the spring.
Will be a while before I can do an 'after' (still need to order HB parts and again, moving slow) but am considering replacing lifters as well (may post another link for advice on this) which would somewhat negate any b4/after. With that said, Tasos states 99% chance the start up chatter is this issue and if you're skilled enough to remove the adjuster, this pin flip is a no-brainer.
If I get thru this HB replacement (and the car starts) may post a 'noob tip addendum' for the less experienced/mechanically-challenged - again, it may be a while
#10
Junior Member
No not yet. Been nursing a re-occurring neck injury but soon I hope.
I had never noticed the cold start-up chatter from the driver seat but my brother pointed out to me so I'll have a point reference when I do (video below) with hopefully a successful b4/after. Will post when I do.
I had never noticed the cold start-up chatter from the driver seat but my brother pointed out to me so I'll have a point reference when I do (video below) with hopefully a successful b4/after. Will post when I do.
Which lock tool did you use that was warped? I'm trying to figure out if I should go with OEM timing tools or aftermarket. Thanks!
#11
Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for posting your updates. I just watched your video. Wow, that sounds like a pretty strong rattle. Mine doesn't sound as loud but maybe it's also the angle from where it was recorded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiNLhjvO4Wk
Which lock tool did you use that was warped? I'm trying to figure out if I should go with OEM timing tools or aftermarket. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiNLhjvO4Wk
Which lock tool did you use that was warped? I'm trying to figure out if I should go with OEM timing tools or aftermarket. Thanks!
#12
Junior Member
I attempted to tackle this today but ran into a problem. The pin looked good, I flipped it anyway, but the adjuster side is worn and I'm not sure its supposed to look like that.
gmore did you happen to get any pics of the plate side?
What do you all think?
gmore did you happen to get any pics of the plate side?
What do you all think?
#13
MBWorld Fanatic!
I attempted to tackle this today but ran into a problem. The pin looked good, I flipped it anyway, but the adjuster side is worn and I'm not sure its supposed to look like that.
gmore did you happen to get any pics of the plate side?
What do you all think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw3ayhL08bQ
gmore did you happen to get any pics of the plate side?
What do you all think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw3ayhL08bQ
interesting. That must be what’s causing the noise. Seems almost like a design flaw maybe with the whole pin thing. Def the plate looks worn. Wondering if it’s just a matter of time that even with a new one it will do the same thing.
#14
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C63 AMG, P30
I wonder if a stronger spring needs to be placed into the hole pushing the pin. Doesn't it seem as though the pin is somehow lifting up a bit and therefore wearing the top of the metal plate?
Edit: Tasos just posted another video
Edit: Tasos just posted another video
Last edited by AMG3.2; 05-28-2018 at 12:37 AM.
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gmore (05-28-2018)
#15
Junior Member
Thanks, just saw his video. He replied to mine as well. He's such a great resource. It looks like the plate wears over time along with the pin. The wear on mine just seemed strange, because it wasn't a smooth ramp, mine seemed notched so that it catches before it actually locks out at the bottom. I'll put it back together, check the other adjusters, then see how it goes.
#16
Member
Thread Starter
I attempted to tackle this today but ran into a problem. The pin looked good, I flipped it anyway, but the adjuster side is worn and I'm not sure its supposed to look like that.
gmore did you happen to get any pics of the plate side?
What do you all think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw3ayhL08bQ
gmore did you happen to get any pics of the plate side?
What do you all think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw3ayhL08bQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brMQ...ature=youtu.be
I now know it was pausing/clacking beforehand (from the sounds) I just never caught a visual to see what was happening. Tasos responded to the video that he felt it was the camshaft adjuster and to try flipping the pin, which I had already done but opened back up to be certain it was right...it was. To experiment(since I'm pretty certain it's toast) I went ahead and re-inpspected(will post some pics below) stretched the spring a bit and rotated the top 1/5th turn(flat plate where bolt heads contact) to avoid the wear the the spring guide created (visible and mildly felt but spaced taking a pic of that - will try to do when I remove/replace) to improve down-pressure on the pin, and re-installed the gear. The 1st couple of cranks resulted in fewer/milder 'clacks' but fully returned by the 3rd turn. Took a chance on ebay with an offer on a used one yesterday that was accepted late last night/paid-for and then was cancelled this morning due to OOS Oh well.
Your chatter doesn't seem near as bad as mine and if you don't recall any clacks getting to 40-degrees to remove - maybe the pin flip will fix? The issue seems(for me) to be mainly at start up (which I assume is the purpose of the pin/spring?) and at 95K my lifters looked pretty good with minimal noise but the worst ones were on this cam - have replaced all.
Haven't had a chance to watch Tasos new video in full (but obviously will) but in his engine rebuild #7 or 8 video, he lubes the gears internals and then cranks the 5 bolts as hard as he can(no torque specs here) - I did best I can w/o issue (hard to get much leverage) but may add a bit more with them mounted - my decision still out on that. Am rambling at this point - not sure how much they'll help but will post some pics below for comparison.
#19
Member
Thread Starter
I wonder if a stronger spring needs to be placed into the hole pushing the pin. Doesn't it seem as though the pin is somehow lifting up a bit and therefore wearing the top of the metal plate?
Edit: Tasos just posted another video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M2ILteRHHA
Edit: Tasos just posted another video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M2ILteRHHA
Will reference in the 1st post
#20
Junior Member
In regards to the free play I saw in my adjuster, I found this video linked in another thread on mbworld. Looks like the amount of play is within spec? I don't remember if all 4 of mine had this much play though. I've also never taken apart or played with a brand new adjuster.
At 6:39
#21
Member
Thread Starter
Yeah it is, it was very helpful. I think he posted it in reply to my video since I was asking for clarification on how much plate wear is acceptable. Very cool of him to do so.
In regards to the free play I saw in my adjuster, I found this video linked in another thread on mbworld. Looks like the amount of play is within spec? I don't remember if all 4 of mine had this much play though. I've also never taken apart or played with a brand new adjuster.
At 6:39
https://youtu.be/WFuFaSxl808?t=399
In regards to the free play I saw in my adjuster, I found this video linked in another thread on mbworld. Looks like the amount of play is within spec? I don't remember if all 4 of mine had this much play though. I've also never taken apart or played with a brand new adjuster.
At 6:39
https://youtu.be/WFuFaSxl808?t=399
LMK how yours turns out.
#22
Junior Member
With the current level of information on the pin and plate wear, what are the experts thinking is the weak link? Pin or plate? It looks from the images that the plate is softer and the hardened pins are causing the wear. BUT, iss this metallurgical or is this fatigue related?
Does anyone know the materials and finishes of either? I'm guessing WIS doesn't show this level of detail. Has anyone that has access (long shot) to an XRF scanner verified materials? The plate is relatively simple to manufacture pending material and finishing/plating. A stronger material could alleviate/eliminate rather than just replacement with OEM.
From the sound in the videos, plate rings like steel, and being in a sealed oiled bath would assume ferrous. Pins I assume are hardened alloy and not stainless (316/416). Wonder if something like electroless nickel plated steel would be strong enough to resist the levels of wear being seen, or going to something like a duplex or inconel would be necessary, or just overkill.
Does anyone know the materials and finishes of either? I'm guessing WIS doesn't show this level of detail. Has anyone that has access (long shot) to an XRF scanner verified materials? The plate is relatively simple to manufacture pending material and finishing/plating. A stronger material could alleviate/eliminate rather than just replacement with OEM.
From the sound in the videos, plate rings like steel, and being in a sealed oiled bath would assume ferrous. Pins I assume are hardened alloy and not stainless (316/416). Wonder if something like electroless nickel plated steel would be strong enough to resist the levels of wear being seen, or going to something like a duplex or inconel would be necessary, or just overkill.
#23
Member
Thread Starter
With the current level of information on the pin and plate wear, what are the experts thinking is the weak link? Pin or plate? It looks from the images that the plate is softer and the hardened pins are causing the wear. BUT, iss this metallurgical or is this fatigue related?
Does anyone know the materials and finishes of either? I'm guessing WIS doesn't show this level of detail. Has anyone that has access (long shot) to an XRF scanner verified materials? The plate is relatively simple to manufacture pending material and finishing/plating. A stronger material could alleviate/eliminate rather than just replacement with OEM.
From the sound in the videos, plate rings like steel, and being in a sealed oiled bath would assume ferrous. Pins I assume are hardened alloy and not stainless (316/416). Wonder if something like electroless nickel plated steel would be strong enough to resist the levels of wear being seen, or going to something like a duplex or inconel would be necessary, or just overkill.
Does anyone know the materials and finishes of either? I'm guessing WIS doesn't show this level of detail. Has anyone that has access (long shot) to an XRF scanner verified materials? The plate is relatively simple to manufacture pending material and finishing/plating. A stronger material could alleviate/eliminate rather than just replacement with OEM.
From the sound in the videos, plate rings like steel, and being in a sealed oiled bath would assume ferrous. Pins I assume are hardened alloy and not stainless (316/416). Wonder if something like electroless nickel plated steel would be strong enough to resist the levels of wear being seen, or going to something like a duplex or inconel would be necessary, or just overkill.
#24
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2007 Mercedes E63 AMG
wow...thanks for posting that video...it would seem that it inherently due to design will wear the edge as the video will show over time. great info. mileage for the video showing the wear, 2013 with ~41,000mi (66,000 km)
#25
Junior Member
If you're thinking about tooling to make a plate(the one with the pin cavity), Tasos in the video references in the video someone that was planning on it but don't think that ever came to be(at least that I could find). Can't imagine it worth it - most with M156 will likely replace the entire adjuster. There is no WIS for the pin - strictly educated guesswork to postpone the expense of an adjuster.
If someone decides they want to have a go at it, let me know and Ill cut some samples and send them out for testing.