I was learning a bit more about the Burmester 4D high end system on the w223 and I came across this!

https://www.burmester.de/en/automoti...s-high-end-4d/

Just a polite note - debating audio systems never ends well. It's like arguing about which car is better but audio nerds (like me) get insanely territorial so I'm just going to lay out the white flag and state that I love this 4D system. It does Dolby Atmos while none of my other cars do but here's what I found interesting.

It's 31 "speakers" on this system, but there's a catch. 8 are "exciters" which are inside seat speakers which I will argue is a gimmick but hey, like I said, I could be wrong. So, let's do some quick maths and smile.

31-8 is 23. Why is this interesting? Because back in 2019 when Audi launched the Bang and Olufsen Advanced 3D sound system, they took it to a new level of 23 speakers. So this basically tells us OEMs can't stick any more speakers in the size of an executive sedan due to interference! I do find it interesting the B&O maxes out at 1920W but the Burmester is ~1600. That's strange. I will state that I do use all 1920W though I'm fairly certain my ears died 7 years ago

I'd love to learn more about the actual bitrates through this 4D system. Atmos sounds cool. I mean it's faux Atmos no doubt because real Atmos needs a gazillion speakers in a home theatre setup but no doubt streaming Atmos means there is real 'height' so the sound system hence the 4D name. If it's like the last Burmester system I heard on the 222, the one on the 223 must be forking brilliant. *brilliant*. The Mark Levinson system on the LS500 is...probably though, still going down as one of my favourite reference audio systems on any car that has ever existed.

However as an audiophile I think the safe thing to state is that these top tier systems all appear to different ear types and they are all insanely good.

 

No no, I went through this exercise extensively in the past. The 31 speakers were true 31 speakers and I was able to count them or spot them. I am 100% confident that the seat exciters are not part of that total count that Mbenz claim for the 4D.

The 4D is a serious upgrade, the same was as with the W222 when the 3D at that time (my former W222 had 3D high-end) and it was a HUGE upgrade compared to the standard. The new "standard" is now labeled as 3D but it's just gimmicky titles, because the standard is extremely underwhelming and very disappointing when you are used to the upgraded/high-end optional sound systems in your other cars. The wattage level is only 700 Watts or so and it's only 15. So call it 3D/2D/5D, it's 700 Watts from 15 speakers. The 4D gets you 31 speakers with 1700 Watts PLUS the 8 exciters on top of that (all brands are offering them now, and I personally turn them off.
4D is the way to go, not because 4D is great, but because I found the standard one to be extremely disappointing. So disappointing that I would never consider the car with standard sound system. I am not a Bass person, and I keep Bass normal, but the sound clarity and excitement in the Burmester 4D is at another level..effortless even at normal volume level. I heard the same in the GLS 580 too, and even though it is labeled as 3D not 4D, the 1600-1700 Watt do the trick and I was really sad that GLS 450 can't be spec'd with the upgraded sound since... but luckily the SUV is not my daily otherwise it would have been a deal breaker..

 

Also a good read. I agree, Rolls Royce is last place here having heard most but not all systems. Ignore #2. The author was drunk. The Range Rover top end system doesn't belong in this list of properly amazing sound systems.

https://www.aol.com/lifestyle/9-best...133000916.html

I do think they were too harsh on the 4D Burmester. To me anyway, it must be one of the best sound systems on the planet in an automobile. I would not be surprised if I walked out of that system and placed it around or ahead of the B&O system on Audi if i heard them back to back. However, the sound profile on the Audis is different than all. It prioritizes high and med frequency clarity and perhaps even overindexes it. The pop out tweeters have that effect and it isn't for everyone's ears.

I will refrain from sharing my comments about how expensive Bespoke audio is on the Rolls Royce and my thoughts on that system.

 

Oh yes, my apologies. I missed that.

"With its 31 high-performance speakers, eight additional exciters". So it's 31 versus 23 in the Audi, but strangely 1920w on the Audi but 1610w on the 4D. That said wattage is only one small measurement. Efficiency, sound quality and a million other factors matter. I wonder when Cadillac will take it to 90 speakers just to make a point (although a bad one)

I have 0 doubt the 4D sound system is properly amazing especially for someone who listens to it regularly (as an owner which I am not). Range Rover is launching this super crazy elite version at some obscene price point with a bunch of added speakers. My eyes rolled so hard I lost them in the back of my head. Properly tuned sound systems come from the like of partnerships from Audi & B&O or Lexus and ML or Mercedes with Burmester. Sticking a ton of speakers in a car is so American and is so stupid.

I wish I had cheap ears. This relentless pursuit of audio perfection can get expensive and Savage Geese once shared a survey from OEM carmakers who all said customers rated audio systems like 6th on their list.

SIXTH?!

PS - yeah they keep the top end systems for the flagships. I too noticed that on the GLE/GLS (the GLE is even worse if memory serves me correct from a speaker options perspective)

 

As a minor aside, I could be wrong but I've always believed the best audio systems can be had in a car when the car is parked. Home theatre systems are extremely annoying to tune because they're all shapes and sizes. High end car makers spend a lot of money getting a sound system to sound perfect and to solve for interference. So $6K or $10K or whatever for the highest end audio system makes sense to me. That's amortized over 60 months or more of ownership and that's not including days spent just listening inside of it.

Like wine tasting, the things I would do to be able to listen to a LS500, A8L, G90, S class all back to back with fellow audiophiles. That would be an amazing experience.

 

I had the 3D Burmester system in my 2018 E63 and now the 4D variant in my 2023 S580. I had the 3D system in my Silver S580 before it was in the accident that led to my current Olive S580. In both my E63 and current S580, I leave the sound profile set to Pure - in my opinion it doesn't need to be modified to sound good to me. However, when I had the 3D variant in my Silver S, I could get "pretty close" to 4D sound by heavily modifying the Sound Profile settings in the Burmester settings menu.

As for bitrate - I listen to all kinds of content depending on my mood - from highly compressed Sirius XM to Apple Music "lossless" to Wireless CarPlay to ripped CDs via USB drive. Sirius lacks severely on quality, but sometimes on road trips I simply tune to Yacht Rock or The Blend and forget it. My 65-year-old ears have lost a lot of high-frequency perception, but I pretend I can hear like I did when I was young and enjoy none-the-less.

 

Imho lexus audio peaked witb the 2012 LS460 Mark Levinson system. Why? Because you could still get a DVD Audio system. That's 5.1 discrete channels of 24 bit sound. Nothing today is able to input a signal with that amount of info streaming in, no matter how many speakers or watts the system has.

I miss that car and its amazing sound system...

 

Fun fact. The B&O Advanced 3D sound system also accepts 24-bit/48kHz and plays that natively (like the 2012 ML system from Lexus) but downsamples (they both do) anything above that. You can actually get 24-bit/192kHz from FLAC which is above DVD audio! I wish I knew more about the Burmester 4D or the present ML system from Lexus. I didn't bother doing the research but I am well aware Burmester 4D accepts Atmos and that makes me super jealous!

Back in the day though, DVD-Audio was required because Bluetooth (even today with PCM et al) can't transmit that high of a bitrate. Wireless AA can now which is why, I think, DVD-Audio died. There was no longer the point of discs but I do miss them. They're nostalgic!

 

When I had my S580, the 4D system was my absolute favorite thing about the car. I found it to be fantastic and wouldn't get another car without it.

 

I have not heard the 4D system but I can say that with direct MBUX streaming of lossless content and the personal sound profile tweaked I am 100% happy with the base 3D system where I was very underwhelmed with the base system in my W222, even after I added a subwoofer.

I had this ML audio in an LS460L, and I can say the base 3D Burmester in my 223 tuned to my specs and using MBUX directly streaming lossless audio is at least as good as that ML system streaming lossless from my iPhone over USB.

 

The thing that always surprised me about the Burmester implementation in Mercedes-Benz is this:

When they introduced the frontbass system I recall their argument was that this is a better product than a traditional subwoofer for reasons ABCD.

So they took away a traditional subwoofer to implement this new system, okay.

But then they talk about all of the benefits of a massive subwoofer in the 4D system on the 223 or the 3D system prior to that.

This is the part that doesn't make any sense to me. There is no other manufacturer that has taken away a subwoofer to put what is akin to a woofer in the footwell of the front seats and while people will have opinions on this it makes absolutely no logical sense to me why Mercedes would say this is a benefit for the base system while leaving it for the 4D system and adding a subwoofer and then talking about the benefits of a subwoofer.

Again I'm not here to debate systems at large or people's love for or hatred towards certain systems it's just that this argument that Mercedes uses has always baffled me.

Now I have no doubt Mercedes-Benz has a ****load of money to do testing and to develop systems and I have no doubt that they develop great products. The cynic in me thinks that they were just cost cutting but I have no evidence to substantiate my claim other than just a poignant opinion 🤣

If this were fought over in a courtroom I would have a field day with Mercedes-Benz just purely on a lack of logic basis 😁

 

Totally agreed on the Frontbass...until I tried it hooked up directly through MBUX. I don't know how they do it but the bass feels like its coming from behind me even without a dedicated sub in the back. My 222 didn't feel that way, and ot doesn't feel that way through CarPlay. Must have something to do with how the sound is manipulated through the system?

 

Very true. And that’s not to say that the regular is “bad”… but just like suspension. You bring someone who has been driving Korean and Japanese cars his entire life, let him enjoy the standard sound system in the S, and he’d 100% tell oh that’s awesome. Of course it is awesome. You then bring someone with 4D sound system, sit in the standard one, of course he is going to tell you it is very underwhelming and it is disappointing. It’s all about the baseline. It’s a relative comparison. The high end system I had in the W222 was the best system I heard in my life at that time. The one I have now is the very best system I’ve ever heard. 4D in the new S is amazing as well. Same for advanced suspension setups. The same guy driving korean and japanese cars his entire life will love the standard setup on flagship models. I’d be laughing at him if he tells me that the car sucks. But I’d be laughing at him the same way if he tells me that the standard setup is just as good as the advanced setups. The same guy driving RollsRoyce, or even flagship cars with the higher-end suspension will tell you that the ride sucks in the base system. It’s totally normal. Perhaps not the right words, or not in an absolute manner, because I know a neighbor who consider his Jeep GC to be the most comfy car on the planet. He had a Honda Odyssey. I hear very similar comparisons on forums all the time with blank statements.

There is no doubt that the 4D system, and all the high-end sound systems I’ve had in my cars, are way superior and better. It’s not even a matter of a debate. They are priced at 3-6K premium because once you are used to these systems they become a need not just an option that is nice to have. When I sat in my W222 with 3D in the past, I was like, man I must have this… period. Never ever again baseline system. Felt same way when I sat in the new S with standard vs 4D. I seriously hate standard sound systems now. The 3D that I had in one in my two W222 cars that was a TRUE 3D setup. The surprise is, the new 223 system labeled as 3D (the standard one) is a fake virtual 3D (it’s a virtualized 3D seriously), it is not a true 3D the same way that 3D was in the W222 upgarded system. The wattage is much higher too in the old 3D.. And then you go to 4D in the new S, and you see a huge difference just like the same delta between the standard and 3D in the old system, but both of them slightly elevated. One is still great, and other is still bad to me. The other point is that with all the high end sound systems nowadays, even without lossless music, they can sound so amazing. With lossless music, they sound out of this world. I only use lossless. I like how you framed it (you can feel the music). Exactly how i feel nowadays in my car. Then getting into other cars with the standard sound systems, the experience is so underwhelming, just like how I feel about standard suspension setups; feels terrible even thought it may feel great to 99% of others coming from a more basic baseline.

 

I share this because of our collective love for high end audio. It gets into details about what the process looks like for automakers from beginning to end, and it also goes into how and why they tune different sound profiles for different cars. One can simply scrap out Audi & B&O and replace it with Mercedes & Burmester for the most part. I read this years ago and thought the group here would like a read:

https://www.whathifi.com/features/be...nd-new-audi-a8

The thing I was referencing earlier was this: "Fraunhofer Symhorium algorithm". No doubt Burmester has their own version on your guys' system. It no doubt costs an insane amount of money to do right because though artificial, it sounds amazing.

I also know exactly what happens when an OEM/sound system vendor goes to create 'artificial' sound when it goes wrong. Cue the full size L460 Range Rover. The "artificial" sound stage is so bad it infuriated me. Fortunately turning all artificial modes off righted a wronged ship.

I'm fairly confident the whole "enclosed speaker shelves" is specific to B&O but it makes a large difference. Loud bassy music is contained largely within the car. Bass sounds stupid tight, and the vibration in glass/side mirrors is almost non existent. It's one thing I've really loved about B&O and the pop out tweeters bring an excellent brightness to the sound. However, I'd be remiss to not acknowledge that some people find it "too bright" and I admit my ears have adjusted to it so anything without it sounds too weak on the high end.

The human brain is fascinating

I grew up with Audi's long term commitment to B&O so I am biased as I have a love of the brand. However, they make a lot of terrible consumer crap. Earphones, headphones, etc, are all garbage, so I try to restrain my total unadulterated love for all things B&O, haha

Why else? Because Harmon owns everything and these brands are all fake for peons like me to "Embrace"

 

Heard (and also read) great feedback about the Bang & Olufsen. I definitely listened to it in a 2021/2022 Audi S8 couple years ago, but I don't consider listening to a sound system for a few minutes or a ride as a valid user experience. I usually need hours or dozens of music plays to get a feel of how great a sound system is. Having said that, the upgraded optional B&O in that Audi was clearly a great system. Don't ask me why and how, but the very best short listening experience that impressed me in a car was with the B&W in a 2020 Volvo XC90 before I bought another SUV then... wasn't my car, but even for short moments it sounded so so so great. The newer ones are even better, but perhaps something was specially about how it was tuned in the XC90.

 

You and many others have raved around the B&W systems on the Volvos. I've also heard great things about their seats. Sadly - never been in one nor heard one. My "short" listening experience that has always stuck with me was the Mark Levinson system on the 2019 Lexus LS500 (or maybe 2018 - it was when they just introduced the 5LS). I was regularly driven around (for work) in the last 7 series so I developed a 'relationship' with that vehicle. The B&W system was average but I loved that car. I'd take a W222 any day of the week for all the right reasons but the 7 did make me feel special. The B&W system on the 7 was...meh but I understand the new 7 has an amazing sound system!

As a total aside, it was interesting how my local dealer took delivery of a brand new (Canada's first) A8L back in 2019 and given how excited I was they loaned it to me for 24 hours. I spent hours that night listening to music (it didn't have the Advanced one), and then spent the remainder of it, erm, perhaps, maybe, erm, taking apart parts of the engine so I could learn how many new components worked after spending days researching the technical details....I don't think they ever found out as I put most of it somewhat back together (Hi Audi!! - wave)

 

B&W Diamond In the G70 7 didn’t impress me much in the time I spent with one, but I was listening to it through CarPlay and hadn’t done any fine tuning of the settings.

I7 also has a downgraded system from the gas 7s, they lack the woofers underneath the front seats I believe.

 

I'd also like to point out something I suspected which then made me lose a bit of my mind.

On the Audi's, they basically set it so that if you want the upgraded stereo, you pay another $6K. I think that's fair.

On the W223 (pre FL - e.g. on MB Canada right now), if I want the 4D, they put it behind 2 other packages. So that means, gentlemen, it's $20,000 in total stuff that I don't want or need just to get the 4D. The only company that is worse than that right now that I can think of is JLR with the Range Rover product. To get the top end system I would need to buy the ATB trim/LWB and that's another $60K or whatever (it's been a while since I checked).

Oh man...sometimes I shake my head at automakers. The above is all *ridiculous*. I understand gate keeping the top end stereo to a specific model (e.g. a butchered Advanced B&O system on the SQ8 versus not having that option at all on the Q8) but on the S class in Canada, they put it behind various rear seat packages and such in order to check the 4D box. Seriously?!

I know nothing about the present gen 7 series but if that's right that doesn't surprise me. Probably a weight or cost cutting thing would be my guess. Also - seriously uncool on the part of BMW. If they're going to create an ICE and EV version...they should offer it at parity but BMW doesn't care what I think, lol

 

Yeah it's awesome.
As for the previous 7 you mentioned, yes, it's good but not great. My guess is that the previous 7 has the same upgraded B&W I had in my Alpina B8. Better than any standard system but not as good as other high-end systems. As for the new 7, you are right, it is an amazing sound system as I have it, probably best in the industry in that price range too along with O&B and a little less 4D. They went all in with that one with zero shortcuts. 35-36 speakers that are also carbon fiber with dual voice coil woofers, with 1965 Watts which is one of the highest wattage in the industry. Only B&O get close to that rating nowadays with the 1920W which is truly amazing. It usually takes me 2 weeks or so to get the very best out of these systems, wherein in the standard systems it is just a few dials and the improvement is dialed in faster. It has a peak that one can easily find. High-end systems allow for a very broad range of settings that would fit unlimited number of scenarios. Once I dial it to my liking, nothing else gets close. That was the same with my 3D Burmester.

 

Thats actually not the case in the US. On the 580 the only other option you have to get in order to get 4D is Exclusive Trim for $3,500 which used to be the Warmth & Comfort package. So $10,300 to get the 4D. Exclusive gets you power rear seats, heated armrests, heated and cooled rear seats, stuff you're going to want.

I believe its actually because of space with the batteries

 

Also I wanna add.. careful about the notes on the EV vs ICE system... just another classic uninformed blank empty statements found around by forum folks just throwing words, downgraded and the like, without actual knowledge. The gas version does not even have an actual subwoofer lol.. it has a central bass speakers. EV variant is not downgraded, and the ICE is not either. The EV variant is not downgraded, is still has the same system and wattage, and yet with actually one but large subwoofer which is also dual voice coil, instead of 2 central bass speakers in the gas 7. The decision is design specific, not downgrading specific, to better fit each system based on the system architecture of ICE vs EV cabin, but did not lead to downgrading either. Each was fitted with the best fit for it's cabin space. I listened to both and can barely ever tell a difference at that time, although again u need dozens of hours to dial everything in. The EV one is an actual subwoofer, and also has more capable dual voice-coil subwoofer that is better integrated into the EV body structure. The enclosure and placement is actually better when I think about it. it is right in the center behind the rear seat, not on the side of trunk as u find in some other cars. I am not a fan of subwoofers that are inside the cabin. The ICE has them under the seat. The EV one has one but larger more capable one in an enclosed structure right behind the rear seat. I like the Bass coming from there just like all my other high-end sound system cars.

 

I think we're all just making do with what little time we have given the volume of information in this new world with ICE this and BEV that. To be fair, the statement made by our colleague was not declarative. It was best effort. We're all on the same side!

 

I can’t see what he posts, don’t worry about it lol

I don’t have any experience comparing the two, I never really seriously considered a gas 7, just going off of what I have read on the forums.

 

I actually read through the B&W documents I have, and found that the gas version does not even have an actual subwoofer by definition which is even more interesting. Only the ev variant has a dedicated enclosure and actual subwoofer. The gas variant tries to compensate for that by adding 2 central bass speakers but not subwoofers. Both are bass producing units obviously, but only the ev variant has a dual voice coil unit an a dedicated subwoofer. I wonder if it has anything to do with maxing out the voltage needs that gas can supply vs higher load that an ev can tolerate. But even then, both are 1900Watts so am not quite sure about the logic and my guess is that it is purely architecture optimization for each variant.

In your Audi, is the subwoofer in the trunk or are they small units in the cabin? And is it 1900Watt level for 2019 model year as in the newer version?

 

Oh I see I have inadvertently stumbled on a land mine don't worry, I have my fair share of those on the Range Rover forums Anyway, I will just repeat I know nothing about the BMW products so I will just steer clear.

The B&O Advanced 3D sound system is unique in that the speakers all have their own enclosures and yes, a proper subwoofer and the system has remained as is from 2019 to present.

https://www.carscoops.com/2017/08/ba...brings-unique/

And, to just sort of dial things back a notch. Yes, the Burmester 4D system is infinitely better and I submit