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12 C63BS Magno Alanite Grey, 22 X3M Brooklyn Grey, 08 BMW E93, 22 Ducati Desert Sled, John Deere 3R
Finished doing Cams and Lifters found something interesting
Generally I don't like taking my car to the dealer, generally have more bad experiences than good. About 4 months ago I fixed a leaky valve cover gasket and saw a little wear on my cams, so asked the dealer to have a look, they said it looked normal.
I decided to tackle doing the cams and updated lifters myself as I intend to keep the car for a while, so did it this week.
So first thing I found was the dealer stripped 2 of the coil hold down screws, same side I had off so they were not stripped when I put it back together but are now, so dealer managed to do that and only real fix is a new valve cover, so maybe will put some JBweld in and let it cure so I can get them a bit tight.
Got it all apart, put the crank at 40 degrees and checked the cams, rear locking tool slides right into place, try it on the drivers side and can't get it to fit no matter what I do, finally figure out the rear cam locking tool is a piece of crap and quite warped, so order another one from Amazon and it comes and is flat and usable, so try it again, fits great on passenger side, but is off on the drivers side, so I turn the crank until the tool slides into the cams on the drivers side and it is quite a bit past 40 degrees, 40 is the mark to the right of the alignment mark - great work mr Dealership, looks like they moved something doing the drivers side and messed it up. I ended up getting it perfectly to 40 degrees, locking the passenger side and doing it, then just pulled the drivers side apart and aligned properly while at 40 degrees, started right up and runs good, but glad I pulled it apart it seemed to run ok but certainly timing was out on one bank.
Last edited by roadkillrob; 11-16-2021 at 09:44 PM.
12 C63BS Magno Alanite Grey, 22 X3M Brooklyn Grey, 08 BMW E93, 22 Ducati Desert Sled, John Deere 3R
Originally Posted by BLKROKT
Rob, how long did it take you to do lifters and cams? Sounds like it went smoothly, did you encounter anything weird other than the stripped bolts and whack timing? Also, aside from the locking bars, what other special tools were needed? I’m considering a refresh when the Tasos cams are available and just want to know what I’m getting into. Did you use the guide from here, Tasos videos, WIS or all three (or other) to guide you?
I did it in stages and took my time, probably 12-14 hours total. I took the intake off and both cam covers off and the serpentine belt and pulled the plugs so I could get it to 40 degrees, that probably took about 2 hours. Then each bank pulling the cams and lifters and replacing and setting the timing was 4-5 hours each then a few hours to button it back up. Its hard on the back being bent over for so long so did it over 2 days.
Things I learned when doing it.
Special tools:
You need the timing tool set - Mercedes one is $300, Amazons are under $100 but very hit and miss, I would order a few and check my other thread about them, others have reported ones that work, first one I got was the silver tool in the black box from EWK, flat bar was not flat and didn't work but bridge tool was good. Second one was red one in red box and bridge tool I had to machine to get it to fit. Someone in the other thread said the silver one in the red box was good for them.
You need a 27.5mm wrench to turn the cams, 28mm will work, I just got any old 28mm wrench, all will be too wide, so had to grind it down a bit narrower so it would fit on the cam to turn it into position after installed.
Otherwise, standard hand tools will do the job, it is helpful to have a long breaker bar or 18" socket wrench to turn the crank hub bolt to turn over the motor (uses a 27mm socket, so get one of those if you don't have one)
A good selection of universal socket joints an extensions help to get to the lower rear cam cover bolts and also the cam cap bolts on the drivers side as space is limited there, also a 1/4 torx that fits the cam cover bolts is helpful to get the hardest couple to pull out.
A good torque wrench, I like the etorx ones on Amazon for the price - 10NM is what you use for all the cam caps and cam cover bolts, so 1/4 drive one is what you need the most.
Small suction cup to pull the lifters, they recommend not using a magnet in WIS
It is all pretty straight forward, here is everything I used.
Parts, FCPeuro is always great, cheapest place I could find for OEM Benz parts was here https://www.mynewbenzparts.com/ (they are on long island NY, much cheaper than anywhere else I could find)
Gotchas, advice etc
Check the flat bar in the timing tool when you get it and make sure it is flat.
Once you have the cam covers off and it set to 40 degrees, check that the tools fit on both sides before you start and find out the timing tools sucks, I made that mistake and had to wait 5 days for a new tool (should have just straightened the first tool on my press in hindsight).
I did M159 lifters, don't think the BS ones are really worth the extra money unless you are going to raise the rev limit in the car and do a lot of high RPM, then they are worth it for the lightness, otherwise both have the tops coated with anti friction coating, BS has sides coated but the sides never seem to have any wear issues anyway.
Taso's has a video somewhere on the buckets, soaking them is pointless, but you can try to pump a little oil into them if you want, I just put them in and let the car fill them up.
I did one cam at a time as my Cam Adjusters did not have a threaded hole (they are new ones) so needed to use the little tool in the kit to lock the backlash gear and only had one of them.
Start on Passenger side, everything is a bit harder on the drivers side due to space issues, so do the passenger side to figure it all out as much easier to work there.
Check all the bearing oil holes in the cams with a matchstick or paperclip (be careful not to scratch the bearing surface) and make sure they go all the way through to the center hollow area as Taso's found there are some defective cams from the factory where the oil holes are not fully drilled.
Process I used.
1. Pull of airboxes, coils, cam covers and remove plugs (I left them in the holes loose to stop anything else falling in getting into combustion chamber)
2. Remove cam covers
3. Remove serpentine belt (17mm socket to take tension off tensioner)
4. Remove idler pulley directly above crank pulley so you can see the timing marks better
5. Set crank to 40 degrees and see if flat bar fits, if bar is way off fitting then you are out by one stroke, rotate the crank one more time (360 degrees as cams rotate only 180 degrees every 360 of crank rotation)
6. Pull of cam adjuster covers and just lay them on a towel or something out of the way, you don't need to unplug anything from them
7. lock the cams on one bank, put on the backlash gear tool on one cam adjuster and then loosen and remove the cam adjuster - watch for the diamond washer behind it that it doesn't fall in, I used the bolt to slide the cam adjuster off while still having a few threads threaded into the cam then could see if the washer stuck to the CA or the cam and could make sure it didn't fall into the engine.
8. Once the CA is off, pull the front bridge lock off, put the wrench on the cam to hold it and remove the rear locking bar and then let off tension on the cam letting it rotate to where it wants to go using the wrench to slow it down, it will turn about 45 degrees.
9. Label the bearing caps and then pull them off and pull out the cam (passenger exhaust and drivers intake will have no tension so you can just pull the caps off and pull out the cam. Passenger intake is the worst for tension, so you have to slowly work across the caps loosening slowly a little at a time or risk breaking a cam, Tasos says do 90 degrees loosening on each bolt then repeat until off, Drivers side exhaust has a little tension but not a lot, but did the slow loosening on it also). the front bearing cap bridges both cams but has no tension on it, just pull it off and leave it off while you do both cams and put it on last once all the other caps are tightened down and then torque as per WIS
10. Put in the new lifters put the cam back in and the caps back on, I took pics put the cam in at the same rough angle as it was and tightened and torqued the caps - used assembly lube on everything. Put on the diamond washer and cam adjuster and bolt (new bolt and washer, both are single use) tighten finger tight and remove backlash tool)
11. Now do the other cam in the bank same as first
12. Once you have both new cams in, then use the 28mm wrench to turn the cam so you can get the rear locking bar in place on one cam as much as possible, then do the second cam and get the rear bar locked in, then put in the front bridge locking tool. Double check cranks is still at 40 degrees!!
13. put on the cam timing tool on the front of the CA's and rotate until they are in the only position (tool flips over left to right, so make sure you have it on the right side and make sure you the alignment dowels are still in the block that it fits over (I had one come out in a cam cover and had to move it) once in the right position, put bolts in it to hold it (cam cover bolts).
14. All is locked with the 3 tools, then tighten the CA bolts, 45 NM then 90 degrees more.
15. That is about it do the other bank, just check the crank never moves from 40 (Which it should not if the cams are all locked when you loosen and tighten the CA's)
Parts:
1. Cams and lifters (cams part #'s are 156-050-42-01 (Passenger Exhaust),156-050-43-01 (Driver Intake),156-050-44-01(Passenger Intake),156-050-45-01 (Driver Exhaust), SLS M159 lifters $20 each 156-050-02-25, SLS Black Series Lifters $35 each 159-050-00-00) - I got all the parts here https://www.mboemparts.com/ as they were the cheapest, around $550 for each of the cams (one is cheaper for some reason $465)
2. Cam cover gaskets and spark plug hole gaskets (gasket 1590160221,1590160121 spark plug hole gasket x8 1560162121)
3. Cam cover bolts (never could figure out if single use, dealer reused when they had my covers off but I replaced them anyway. (0109906704)
4. Cam Phaser bolts and diamond washers (x4) (Washers 156-051-02-75, bolts 910105-012018)
5. Cam Adjuster cover gaskets x2 (1560162221)
When I finished I started it and let it run for 5 seconds then shut it off, did that twice then let it run for a few minutes, it was tapping a bit as buckets had not filled, shut it off. Next day I let it run up to temp, it tapped for maybe 3-5 minutes and then all the tapping went away as the buckets filled with oil and all was very quiet.
That is about it yell if you have any questions!
EDIT - 2 more things - one, I took the undertrays off this morning mostly to find the socket I dropped but also to clean them up, you will loose a few hundred ML of oil from the cam covers being removed and from the cam adjuster covers, not enough to drip off the covers but a bit.
Second thing - never knew an M156 could be so quiet, with new CA's cams and lifter it is dead silent - only thing I hear is the belt whirring, never knew they were so quiet from the factory!
Definitely sounds like the dealer may set the timing out.
When I did my lifters the good rear locking bar and the cheap one both fit on both sides at 40deg
Although I did one side at a time I left the cheap rear locking bar on the opposite bank.
I also used both the CA locks at same time so could remove both CA's and cams.
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Rob, how long did it take you to do lifters and cams? Sounds like it went smoothly, did you encounter anything weird other than the stripped bolts and whack timing? Also, aside from the locking bars, what other special tools were needed? I’m considering a refresh when the Tasos cams are available and just want to know what I’m getting into. Did you use the guide from here, Tasos videos, WIS or all three (or other) to guide you?
12 C63BS Magno Alanite Grey, 22 X3M Brooklyn Grey, 08 BMW E93, 22 Ducati Desert Sled, John Deere 3R
Originally Posted by BLKROKT
Rob, how long did it take you to do lifters and cams? Sounds like it went smoothly, did you encounter anything weird other than the stripped bolts and whack timing? Also, aside from the locking bars, what other special tools were needed? I’m considering a refresh when the Tasos cams are available and just want to know what I’m getting into. Did you use the guide from here, Tasos videos, WIS or all three (or other) to guide you?
I did it in stages and took my time, probably 12-14 hours total. I took the intake off and both cam covers off and the serpentine belt and pulled the plugs so I could get it to 40 degrees, that probably took about 2 hours. Then each bank pulling the cams and lifters and replacing and setting the timing was 4-5 hours each then a few hours to button it back up. Its hard on the back being bent over for so long so did it over 2 days.
Things I learned when doing it.
Special tools:
You need the timing tool set - Mercedes one is $300, Amazons are under $100 but very hit and miss, I would order a few and check my other thread about them, others have reported ones that work, first one I got was the silver tool in the black box from EWK, flat bar was not flat and didn't work but bridge tool was good. Second one was red one in red box and bridge tool I had to machine to get it to fit. Someone in the other thread said the silver one in the red box was good for them.
You need a 27.5mm wrench to turn the cams, 28mm will work, I just got any old 28mm wrench, all will be too wide, so had to grind it down a bit narrower so it would fit on the cam to turn it into position after installed.
Otherwise, standard hand tools will do the job, it is helpful to have a long breaker bar or 18" socket wrench to turn the crank hub bolt to turn over the motor (uses a 27mm socket, so get one of those if you don't have one)
A good selection of universal socket joints an extensions help to get to the lower rear cam cover bolts and also the cam cap bolts on the drivers side as space is limited there, also a 1/4 torx that fits the cam cover bolts is helpful to get the hardest couple to pull out.
A good torque wrench, I like the etorx ones on Amazon for the price - 10NM is what you use for all the cam caps and cam cover bolts, so 1/4 drive one is what you need the most.
Small suction cup to pull the lifters, they recommend not using a magnet in WIS
It is all pretty straight forward, here is everything I used.
Parts, FCPeuro is always great, cheapest place I could find for OEM Benz parts was here https://www.mynewbenzparts.com/ (they are on long island NY, much cheaper than anywhere else I could find)
Gotchas, advice etc
Check the flat bar in the timing tool when you get it and make sure it is flat.
Once you have the cam covers off and it set to 40 degrees, check that the tools fit on both sides before you start and find out the timing tools sucks, I made that mistake and had to wait 5 days for a new tool (should have just straightened the first tool on my press in hindsight).
I did M159 lifters, don't think the BS ones are really worth the extra money unless you are going to raise the rev limit in the car and do a lot of high RPM, then they are worth it for the lightness, otherwise both have the tops coated with anti friction coating, BS has sides coated but the sides never seem to have any wear issues anyway.
Taso's has a video somewhere on the buckets, soaking them is pointless, but you can try to pump a little oil into them if you want, I just put them in and let the car fill them up.
I did one cam at a time as my Cam Adjusters did not have a threaded hole (they are new ones) so needed to use the little tool in the kit to lock the backlash gear and only had one of them.
Start on Passenger side, everything is a bit harder on the drivers side due to space issues, so do the passenger side to figure it all out as much easier to work there.
Check all the bearing oil holes in the cams with a matchstick or paperclip (be careful not to scratch the bearing surface) and make sure they go all the way through to the center hollow area as Taso's found there are some defective cams from the factory where the oil holes are not fully drilled.
Process I used.
1. Pull of airboxes, coils, cam covers and remove plugs (I left them in the holes loose to stop anything else falling in getting into combustion chamber)
2. Remove cam covers
3. Remove serpentine belt (17mm socket to take tension off tensioner)
4. Remove idler pulley directly above crank pulley so you can see the timing marks better
5. Set crank to 40 degrees and see if flat bar fits, if bar is way off fitting then you are out by one stroke, rotate the crank one more time (360 degrees as cams rotate only 180 degrees every 360 of crank rotation)
6. Pull of cam adjuster covers and just lay them on a towel or something out of the way, you don't need to unplug anything from them
7. lock the cams on one bank, put on the backlash gear tool on one cam adjuster and then loosen and remove the cam adjuster - watch for the diamond washer behind it that it doesn't fall in, I used the bolt to slide the cam adjuster off while still having a few threads threaded into the cam then could see if the washer stuck to the CA or the cam and could make sure it didn't fall into the engine.
8. Once the CA is off, pull the front bridge lock off, put the wrench on the cam to hold it and remove the rear locking bar and then let off tension on the cam letting it rotate to where it wants to go using the wrench to slow it down, it will turn about 45 degrees.
9. Label the bearing caps and then pull them off and pull out the cam (passenger exhaust and drivers intake will have no tension so you can just pull the caps off and pull out the cam. Passenger intake is the worst for tension, so you have to slowly work across the caps loosening slowly a little at a time or risk breaking a cam, Tasos says do 90 degrees loosening on each bolt then repeat until off, Drivers side exhaust has a little tension but not a lot, but did the slow loosening on it also). the front bearing cap bridges both cams but has no tension on it, just pull it off and leave it off while you do both cams and put it on last once all the other caps are tightened down and then torque as per WIS
10. Put in the new lifters put the cam back in and the caps back on, I took pics put the cam in at the same rough angle as it was and tightened and torqued the caps - used assembly lube on everything. Put on the diamond washer and cam adjuster and bolt (new bolt and washer, both are single use) tighten finger tight and remove backlash tool)
11. Now do the other cam in the bank same as first
12. Once you have both new cams in, then use the 28mm wrench to turn the cam so you can get the rear locking bar in place on one cam as much as possible, then do the second cam and get the rear bar locked in, then put in the front bridge locking tool. Double check cranks is still at 40 degrees!!
13. put on the cam timing tool on the front of the CA's and rotate until they are in the only position (tool flips over left to right, so make sure you have it on the right side and make sure you the alignment dowels are still in the block that it fits over (I had one come out in a cam cover and had to move it) once in the right position, put bolts in it to hold it (cam cover bolts).
14. All is locked with the 3 tools, then tighten the CA bolts, 45 NM then 90 degrees more.
15. That is about it do the other bank, just check the crank never moves from 40 (Which it should not if the cams are all locked when you loosen and tighten the CA's)
Parts:
1. Cams and lifters (cams part #'s are 156-050-42-01 (Passenger Exhaust),156-050-43-01 (Driver Intake),156-050-44-01(Passenger Intake),156-050-45-01 (Driver Exhaust), SLS M159 lifters $20 each 156-050-02-25, SLS Black Series Lifters $35 each 159-050-00-00) - I got all the parts here https://www.mboemparts.com/ as they were the cheapest, around $550 for each of the cams (one is cheaper for some reason $465)
2. Cam cover gaskets and spark plug hole gaskets (gasket 1590160221,1590160121 spark plug hole gasket x8 1560162121)
3. Cam cover bolts (never could figure out if single use, dealer reused when they had my covers off but I replaced them anyway. (0109906704)
4. Cam Phaser bolts and diamond washers (x4) (Washers 156-051-02-75, bolts 910105-012018)
5. Cam Adjuster cover gaskets x2 (1560162221)
When I finished I started it and let it run for 5 seconds then shut it off, did that twice then let it run for a few minutes, it was tapping a bit as buckets had not filled, shut it off. Next day I let it run up to temp, it tapped for maybe 3-5 minutes and then all the tapping went away as the buckets filled with oil and all was very quiet.
That is about it yell if you have any questions!
EDIT - 2 more things - one, I took the undertrays off this morning mostly to find the socket I dropped but also to clean them up, you will loose a few hundred ML of oil from the cam covers being removed and from the cam adjuster covers, not enough to drip off the covers but a bit.
Second thing - never knew an M156 could be so quiet, with new CA's cams and lifter it is dead silent - only thing I hear is the belt whirring, never knew they were so quiet from the factory!
Last edited by roadkillrob; 12-31-2019 at 03:34 PM.
12 C63BS Magno Alanite Grey, 22 X3M Brooklyn Grey, 08 BMW E93, 22 Ducati Desert Sled, John Deere 3R
Oh one more thing, WIS says it is a requirement to run the cam adjuster sensor calibration procedure, others have not done it without issue, but unless you have star diagnostics, that means a trip to the dealer or an indy to have it done, literally takes 30 seconds, you run it in star, rev the car to like 2500 rpm for 15 seconds and it says done.
Oh one more thing, WIS says it is a requirement to run the cam adjuster sensor calibration procedure, others have not done it without issue, but unless you have star diagnostics, that means a trip to the dealer or an indy to have it done, literally takes 30 seconds, you run it in star, rev the car to like 2500 rpm for 15 seconds and it says done.
I have a setup if you want to use it on your car. I too think the dealer messed up my timing and want to double check there work.
Mine also stripped a bolt on the coils and I just found a bigger bolt to use that grabbed.
12 C63BS Magno Alanite Grey, 22 X3M Brooklyn Grey, 08 BMW E93, 22 Ducati Desert Sled, John Deere 3R
Originally Posted by skratch77
I have a setup if you want to use it on your car. I too think the dealer messed up my timing and want to double check there work.
Mine also stripped a bolt on the coils and I just found a bigger bolt to use that grabbed.
You can still borrow my timing tool now that I have a working one, but won't work on your new car!
When I over-researched doing HBs, recall having to to get to 40 degrees ONLY in a clockwise rotation and if you went even a little passed, either continue with another 2 rotations of the crank(1-full rotation of CAs), or over-correct counter-clockwise several degrees before bringing back to 40. If the tool is just a bit off, the easiest thing to do is just tweak the crank back and forth until it falls into place but I only did so going in a CW direction - maybe thats what the mechanic did? If only doing cams and lifters, I would assume you'd have to mess with the crank with them out to jack up timing, otherwise the tool wouldn't fit?
Probably obvious to most, but my lazy *** 1st attempted with plugs in - so much easier with them out. Also, having to use the 'cheap' tool multiple times, the rear plate did ultimately bend some but a little finessing with a vise made it usable again.
12 C63BS Magno Alanite Grey, 22 X3M Brooklyn Grey, 08 BMW E93, 22 Ducati Desert Sled, John Deere 3R
Originally Posted by gmore
potential psa (and pls correct me if wrong)
When I over-researched doing HBs, recall having to to get to 40 degrees ONLY in a clockwise rotation and if you went even a little passed, either continue with another 2 rotations of the crank(1-full rotation of CAs), or over-correct counter-clockwise several degrees before bringing back to 40. If the tool is just a bit off, the easiest thing to do is just tweak the crank back and forth until it falls into place but I only did so going in a CW direction - maybe thats what the mechanic did? If only doing cams and lifters, I would assume you'd have to mess with the crank with them out to jack up timing, otherwise the tool wouldn't fit?
Probably obvious to most, but my lazy *** 1st attempted with plugs in - so much easier with them out. Also, having to use the 'cheap' tool multiple times, the rear plate did ultimately bend some but a little finessing with a vise made it usable again.
Yes always only clockwise, if you go backwards, you can move the crank a bit without the cams moving as the cam chain tensioners slack off and it allows for a bit of slop, so you can be off a little, so always go around again clockwise or go back a lot counter clockwise and then go clockwise again.
Second thing - never knew an M156 could be so quiet, with new CA's cams and lifter it is dead silent - only thing I hear is the belt whirring, never knew they were so quiet from the factory!
Hey Rob I'm most likely going to keep my car and will be doing one side( the side the dealer did) over. Can you edit in the part numbers for the sls lifters and bs lifters? And also maybe mark witch cam is intake and exh.
I'm just going to change out my intake cam adjuster and cam on the drivers side.
12 C63BS Magno Alanite Grey, 22 X3M Brooklyn Grey, 08 BMW E93, 22 Ducati Desert Sled, John Deere 3R
Originally Posted by skratch77
Hey Rob I'm most likely going to keep my car and will be doing one side( the side the dealer did) over. Can you edit in the part numbers for the sls lifters and bs lifters? And also maybe mark witch cam is intake and exh.
I'm just going to change out my intake cam adjuster and cam on the drivers side.
Sure will do it in a minute - let me know when you need the tool and I will come swap you for Star.
Edit - post updated.
Last edited by roadkillrob; 12-31-2019 at 03:35 PM.
Sure will do it in a minute - let me know when you need the tool and I will come swap you for Star.
Edit - post updated.
I wont be doing this until the weather gets a little warmer so let me know when you want to grab it.
Looks like with cam adjusters we can get all the parts for about 3500. How did your exh cams look like? I'm trying to figure out if I should just replace one cam and use sls bs lifters on it vs doing all of them.
12 C63BS Magno Alanite Grey, 22 X3M Brooklyn Grey, 08 BMW E93, 22 Ducati Desert Sled, John Deere 3R
Originally Posted by skratch77
I wont be doing this until the weather gets a little warmer so let me know when you want to grab it.
Looks like with cam adjusters we can get all the parts for about 3500. How did your exh cams look like? I'm trying to figure out if I should just replace one cam and use sls bs lifters on it vs doing all of them.
My cams looked about the same exhaust vs intake, it wasn't perfect even though consensus seems to be that the exhaust one doesn't wear as much, intake and exhaust where about the same with a little wear on the lobe tips but not much, dealer said they were worn as expected when they looked.
Unless you are upping the redline, not sure the BS lifters are worth doing over the M159 updated lifters as they are coated also, so from a wear perspective probably no benefit to the BS lifters for double the money but they are lighter so advantage would be increased redline in a tune.
Hopefully somewhere in here can help, I’ve done this process a few times now and have gotten everything to line up at 40 degrees including both back and front plates, turned the engine over a full revolution and it’s still in time, yet when I put it back together and start driving again after about 20 minutes it will throw codes for timing advancement on all 4 cams and idles slightly rough. It’s only out a little, but any idea why it would be going out still?
Hopefully somewhere in here can help, I’ve done this process a few times now and have gotten everything to line up at 40 degrees including both back and front plates, turned the engine over a full revolution and it’s still in time, yet when I put it back together and start driving again after about 20 minutes it will throw codes for timing advancement on all 4 cams and idles slightly rough. It’s only out a little, but any idea why it would be going out still?
Did you go through camshaft position adaptation (re-learning)?
12-28-2019, 05:26 PM
