C63 vs E63 engine differences
02-28-2019, 06:17 PM
#27
Member
02-28-2019, 10:34 PM
#28
Senior Member
03-01-2019, 07:01 AM
#29
Senior Member
Is that video supposed to be a joke?
You floored it in 4th gear at 1800rpm what did you think was going to happen? Turbos are exhaust driven power adders, not plutonium powered flux capacitors. Be in the correct gear at the correct rpm and there is almost zero lag. Do your exact same “test” in second gear and see what happens.
You floored it in 4th gear at 1800rpm what did you think was going to happen? Turbos are exhaust driven power adders, not plutonium powered flux capacitors. Be in the correct gear at the correct rpm and there is almost zero lag. Do your exact same “test” in second gear and see what happens.
03-01-2019, 07:26 AM
#30
Senior Member
Yes, well if you were used to driving a normally-aspirated manual transmission, then I do think you would be able to detect some lag. Whether it's the transmission, the turbos, or both I cannot say: but there is some lag IMHO. I wouldn't say it's a problem - just very different than what I was used to.
03-01-2019, 08:07 AM
#31
Senior Member
Mine does not. My C63S will do exactly the same even in Race.
Not at all. Someone stated, the C63 does not have turbo lag. That is wrong. The M177 has a relatively small displacement and therefore uses huge turbochargers. As a result there is turbolag - which is fine for me, as one can use higher RPMs to minimize it. The higher the rpms, the higher the exhaustflow - the faster those turbines spool up!
However: To be honest: In every day driving, especially when commuting, I usually don't use 2nd gear at that speed... so when I floor it, the car has to downshift and those turbos have to spool up - which takes it's time. An N/A car simply starts pulling. Even an ordinary Mercedes M278 (4.7 V8 BiTurbo) in the old E550 has a lot less turbo lag (due to the higher displacement and those smaller turbochargers) - which makes it in my opinion the better engine for a daily driver.
...on the other hand...a backroad and an M177 is a fabulous combination!
Not at all. Someone stated, the C63 does not have turbo lag. That is wrong. The M177 has a relatively small displacement and therefore uses huge turbochargers. As a result there is turbolag - which is fine for me, as one can use higher RPMs to minimize it. The higher the rpms, the higher the exhaustflow - the faster those turbines spool up!
However: To be honest: In every day driving, especially when commuting, I usually don't use 2nd gear at that speed... so when I floor it, the car has to downshift and those turbos have to spool up - which takes it's time. An N/A car simply starts pulling. Even an ordinary Mercedes M278 (4.7 V8 BiTurbo) in the old E550 has a lot less turbo lag (due to the higher displacement and those smaller turbochargers) - which makes it in my opinion the better engine for a daily driver.
...on the other hand...a backroad and an M177 is a fabulous combination!
03-01-2019, 11:30 AM
#32
Yea if you were used to a large displacement na v8 or a supercharged v6/8 there are some noticeable differences in driving characteristics (torque) you would feel when comparing to a smaller displacement turbo motor. Little trick to combat that difference is to keep a bit more rpm in the car when driving spirited which usually equates to staying in a gear longer or being one gear lower than you’re used to.
03-01-2019, 12:31 PM
#33
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2018 C63s Estate, 2017 gla 45 [Sold] 2017 smart 44 brabus sport [for the Mrs]
a 4 litre is relatively small displacement? I thought i had heard it all, but i think i really have now...
A 4 litre V8 that revs to past 7k is anything but a relatively small displacement.
A 4 litre V8 that revs to past 7k is anything but a relatively small displacement.
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C32owner (01-12-2020)
03-01-2019, 01:22 PM
#34
MBWorld Fanatic!
A 4.0L is only small for a V8, but that doesn't make it a small engine. That video proves how little lag there actually is... comfort mode, 4th gear rolling in manual at 1500 rpm and there's full boost by about 2100 RPM. That guy who made the video doesn't understand the difference between turbo lag and boost threshold.
"Boost threshold is the engine speed at which you have enough exhaust gas flow in order to create boost. Turbo lag is the additional time delay above boost threshold, when the engine's throttle valve is open and the turbocharger needs to accelerate to deliver positive pressure to the engine".
There is very little turbo lag with this engine, but with any turbocharged engine there is a boost threshold. You need engine RPM to increase the exhaust gas velocity and spool the turbo. There is no magic to get rid of that, short of installing an electric turbo to use as a torque-fill.
To whoever said we have huge turbochargers, thanks for the laugh. These things are so small they run out of breath at higher RPM, but that trade off allows for the massive torque down low which is great for driving around town.
"Boost threshold is the engine speed at which you have enough exhaust gas flow in order to create boost. Turbo lag is the additional time delay above boost threshold, when the engine's throttle valve is open and the turbocharger needs to accelerate to deliver positive pressure to the engine".
There is very little turbo lag with this engine, but with any turbocharged engine there is a boost threshold. You need engine RPM to increase the exhaust gas velocity and spool the turbo. There is no magic to get rid of that, short of installing an electric turbo to use as a torque-fill.
To whoever said we have huge turbochargers, thanks for the laugh. These things are so small they run out of breath at higher RPM, but that trade off allows for the massive torque down low which is great for driving around town.
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Star4life (03-07-2019)
03-01-2019, 01:46 PM
#35
A 4.0L is only small for a V8, but that doesn't make it a small engine. That video proves how little lag there actually is... comfort mode, 4th gear rolling in manual at 1500 rpm and there's full boost by about 2100 RPM. That guy who made the video doesn't understand the difference between turbo lag and boost threshold.
"Boost threshold is the engine speed at which you have enough exhaust gas flow in order to create boost. Turbo lag is the additional time delay above boost threshold, when the engine's throttle valve is open and the turbocharger needs to accelerate to deliver positive pressure to the engine".
There is very little turbo lag with this engine, but with any turbocharged engine there is a boost threshold. You need engine RPM to increase the exhaust gas velocity and spool the turbo. There is no magic to get rid of that, short of installing an electric turbo to use as a torque-fill.
To whoever said we have huge turbochargers, thanks for the laugh. These things are so small they run out of breath at higher RPM, but that trade off allows for the massive torque down low which is great for driving around town.
"Boost threshold is the engine speed at which you have enough exhaust gas flow in order to create boost. Turbo lag is the additional time delay above boost threshold, when the engine's throttle valve is open and the turbocharger needs to accelerate to deliver positive pressure to the engine".
There is very little turbo lag with this engine, but with any turbocharged engine there is a boost threshold. You need engine RPM to increase the exhaust gas velocity and spool the turbo. There is no magic to get rid of that, short of installing an electric turbo to use as a torque-fill.
To whoever said we have huge turbochargers, thanks for the laugh. These things are so small they run out of breath at higher RPM, but that trade off allows for the massive torque down low which is great for driving around town.
03-01-2019, 03:20 PM
#36
This!
Now, there are some cars that are starting to use electrically operated turbos like the Audi SQ7 - three turbos, two normal and one electric - to fill the gaping hole that is turbo lag that can exist in turbocharged big diesels. But as someone who has driven early turbo charged cars, its pretty bloody obvious that the AMG engine has virtually no turbo lag! Its seriously an incredible engine and so responsive that its shocking! Turbocharging engines is actually quite a sophisticated process - balance the throttle, response and tune the inlets and exhausts for response, power and where exactly you want that power to be. If anyone has driven a BMW 2002 Turbo knows what turbo lag is - and how far the process has come in years since. Those BMW's were terrible, shocking and huge fun.... but I will take a modern turbo engine like the AMG one every day of the week.
Now, there are some cars that are starting to use electrically operated turbos like the Audi SQ7 - three turbos, two normal and one electric - to fill the gaping hole that is turbo lag that can exist in turbocharged big diesels. But as someone who has driven early turbo charged cars, its pretty bloody obvious that the AMG engine has virtually no turbo lag! Its seriously an incredible engine and so responsive that its shocking! Turbocharging engines is actually quite a sophisticated process - balance the throttle, response and tune the inlets and exhausts for response, power and where exactly you want that power to be. If anyone has driven a BMW 2002 Turbo knows what turbo lag is - and how far the process has come in years since. Those BMW's were terrible, shocking and huge fun.... but I will take a modern turbo engine like the AMG one every day of the week.
A 4.0L is only small for a V8, but that doesn't make it a small engine. That video proves how little lag there actually is... comfort mode, 4th gear rolling in manual at 1500 rpm and there's full boost by about 2100 RPM. That guy who made the video doesn't understand the difference between turbo lag and boost threshold.
"Boost threshold is the engine speed at which you have enough exhaust gas flow in order to create boost. Turbo lag is the additional time delay above boost threshold, when the engine's throttle valve is open and the turbocharger needs to accelerate to deliver positive pressure to the engine".
There is very little turbo lag with this engine, but with any turbocharged engine there is a boost threshold. You need engine RPM to increase the exhaust gas velocity and spool the turbo. There is no magic to get rid of that, short of installing an electric turbo to use as a torque-fill.
To whoever said we have huge turbochargers, thanks for the laugh. These things are so small they run out of breath at higher RPM, but that trade off allows for the massive torque down low which is great for driving around town.
"Boost threshold is the engine speed at which you have enough exhaust gas flow in order to create boost. Turbo lag is the additional time delay above boost threshold, when the engine's throttle valve is open and the turbocharger needs to accelerate to deliver positive pressure to the engine".
There is very little turbo lag with this engine, but with any turbocharged engine there is a boost threshold. You need engine RPM to increase the exhaust gas velocity and spool the turbo. There is no magic to get rid of that, short of installing an electric turbo to use as a torque-fill.
To whoever said we have huge turbochargers, thanks for the laugh. These things are so small they run out of breath at higher RPM, but that trade off allows for the massive torque down low which is great for driving around town.
03-01-2019, 07:54 PM
#37
Super Member
That's a very useful explanation which makes sense. The turbos really are small enough to spool up quickly, but it's the threshold pressure that takes time to build. Maybe this is why we continue to argue, i.e. using the same words to describe different phenomenon. All I know is that it feels like there is some kind of buffer between the accelerator pedal and the car response and now I know just a little bit more....thank you.
If you have a turbo that takes an unusually high rpm to fully spool (turbo lag), that's turbo size mismatch and/or trading spool time for big HP #s, that's boost lag.
From the published data (2017 C63 S Coupe):
503 hp at 5500-6250 rpm
516 lb-ft at 1750-4500 rpm
Generally speaking, making so much torque at low rpm (barely off idle) means you have small turbos that will run outta steam up to (no additional torque past 4500rpm, and hp runs out at 6250rpm). But it also means there's virtually little to no turbo lag.
Our C63s have VERY little turbo lag AND a very low boost threshold (based on the turbos being small, so they're fully spooled at a low rpm).
Conversely, if you wanna talk about turbo lag, Youtube a Supra race. Watch whatever car getting a full 1-2 car lengths on the turbo, while the Supra's huge turbo spools up at 5,000rpm lol and the thing takes off like a rocketship. THAT'S turbo lag...
03-02-2019, 04:49 PM
#39
Our C63s have VERY little turbo lag AND a very low boost threshold (based on the turbos being small, so they're fully spooled at a low rpm).
Conversely, if you wanna talk about turbo lag, Youtube a Supra race. Watch whatever car getting a full 1-2 car lengths on the turbo, while the Supra's huge turbo spools up at 5,000rpm lol and the thing takes off like a rocketship. THAT'S turbo lag...
Surely this topic is now dead (I hope).
03-02-2019, 10:03 PM
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
It depends on the gear. Coast at 1750 rpm in first gear and stomp the throttle and tell me how long it takes to light the rear tires up. I don’t know about you, but I’m never flooring it at that low an RPM unless I’m in first gear. In almost every scenario, you need to downshift to the appropriate gear. When you’re in the powerband and not lugging the motor at cruising rpms, there is extremely little lag.
Last edited by AlexZTuned; 03-02-2019 at 10:07 PM.
03-03-2019, 07:30 PM
#41
MBWorld Fanatic!
Kind of off-topic but how does the low/mid rpm driveability/torque curve compare to some of the older engines? Particularly the M113K if anyone has made the switch. I would imagine the new engines have more impressive top end performance.
03-04-2019, 10:21 AM
#42
Senior Member
In almost every scenario, you need to downshift to the appropriate gear.
When you’re in the powerband and not lugging the motor at cruising rpms, there is extremely little lag.
03-04-2019, 08:24 PM
#43
Did someone really complain about a C63 having turbo lag?? Lol. Granted I have a C63s and open intakes which makes a noticeable difference in throttle response and “peppyness” of the car, but even with the stock intakes the car is still really responsive. These little snails spool instantly compared to any decent sized precision turbo. Problem is the performance aftermarket for these cars is so limited...you only have exhaust, tunes, piggybacks, a few intake and a few turbo options. That’s it. These cars are really just meant to be lightly modded, driven and enjoyed imo. They will never be high horsepower freeway monsters or fully built feeling crushers.
03-05-2019, 08:03 AM
#45
Super Member
If you're in comfort mode, you'll find you're often driving around in 7th gear. And when stomping on the throttle, you'll likely want to be in 2nd or 3rd gear (obviously depending on the speed you're currently traveling at). The shifts in Comfort are also slower. That's why in Sport+, it will hold a more optimal gear, and shift quickly, to enable quicker acceleration should it be required.
Fair enough. I have a mix of both, FYI.
You are comparing to other turbos. I am comparing against naturally-aspirated (non-forced induction) V8. I fully understand that possibly most readers may not have had a non-forced induction car - especially if they like to mod.
03-05-2019, 10:08 AM
#46
These cars are are on stock engine. So no pistons no cams even stock exhaust manifolds. Turbos are bolt on including all lines. And downpipes any shop these days seems to be installing for under $500. So yea. Pretty bolt on.
03-05-2019, 10:26 AM
#47
03-06-2019, 05:20 PM
#48
Seems like this thread is a catch-all, so I will ask here if anybody with a 2018 C63s Coupe (purchased in February 2018) has recently gotten a program update and found that the transmission seemingly shifts more quickly and more smoothly (maybe the same thing)?
03-06-2019, 09:12 PM
#49
MBWorld Fanatic!
Several already have. I know of at least 2 800+whp C63’s with unopened engines. Just bolt-ons, turbos, and fuel. Stock trans, stock heads and block/internals.
Not saying you won’t break anything at that power level, but it’ll be the trans or diff before the engine.
I actually haven’t heard of anyone blowing their M177, stock or built. The trans on the other hand...
Not saying you won’t break anything at that power level, but it’ll be the trans or diff before the engine.
I actually haven’t heard of anyone blowing their M177, stock or built. The trans on the other hand...
03-07-2019, 01:25 AM
#50
Several already have. I know of at least 2 800+whp C63’s with unopened engines. Just bolt-ons, turbos, and fuel. Stock trans, stock heads and block/internals.
Not saying you won’t break anything at that power level, but it’ll be the trans or diff before the engine.
I actually haven’t heard of anyone blowing their M177, stock or built. The trans on the other hand...
Not saying you won’t break anything at that power level, but it’ll be the trans or diff before the engine.
I actually haven’t heard of anyone blowing their M177, stock or built. The trans on the other hand...
exactly my thoughts. There are more than 2. Just 2 are out there showing it off. I’m sure many more will pop up as well. Lots of people buying stage 4 turbos. And since I should go try it, I have too. Lol.
I hate the electronic diff in the car anyway so that’s the first thing being changed.
