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C63 vs E63 engine differences

 
Old 06-20-2017, 01:22 PM
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C63 vs E63 engine differences

I know both cars use the same engine but there are differences in the turbo's.

Are there any other significant differences?

Also, would it be possible to swap the C63 turbo's with the E63 turbo's?
I'm guessing with a remap this would be quite a beast as I've seen E63 remaps with ridiculous power gains on the hp and torque band.

Currently running at 611bhp but more might be better? No clue why I would do this but I'm very curious.
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Old 06-20-2017, 01:34 PM
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I hadn't heard about any differences in the turbos. If they had different turbos, I'd think they'd get a new engine number, but both are listed as the M177. I'd guess the only difference is the tune, but I could be wrong.
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Old 06-20-2017, 01:50 PM
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Direct from the press release: http://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSi...l?oid=14320400

New peak of performance: 4.0-litre V8 biturbo engine with twin-scroll turbochargers

The versatile AMG 4.0-litre twin-turbo V8 engine in the E 63 S 4MATIC+ takes peak performance to a new level at 450 kW (612 hp). Maximum torque attains a new best value of 850 Nm. It is available over a broad engine speed range of 2500 to 4500 rpm and so provides a feeling of effortless superiority in every accelerator pedal position. A sprint from zero to 100 km/h is absolved in 3.4 seconds, and this dynamic acceleration only ends at the governed top speed of 250 km/h (with AMG Driver's package: 300 km/h). The E 63 4MATIC+ is rated at 420 kW (571 hp) and has 750 Nm of torque. This variant accelerates to 100 km/h in 3.5 seconds.

The advanced AMG 4.0-litre V8 biturbo engine utilises well-proven twin turbocharging, with the two chargers not located outside on the cylinder banks, but rather between them in the V of the cylinders. The advantages of the "hot inner V" are a compact engine design, an immediate response from the twin-scroll turbochargers and low exhaust gas emissions thanks to optimum air flow for the close-coupled catalytic converters.

Two twin-scroll turbochargers are deployed for the first time to boost performance and improve responsiveness further. The housing is divided into two parallel flow passages. Combined with two separate exhaust ducts in the exhaust manifold, this makes it possible to control the exhaust gases on the turbine wheel separately. The exhaust gas from the first and fourth cylinders of the cylinder bank is fed into one duct and exhaust gas from the second and third cylinders to the other duct. The aim is to prevent the individual cylinders from having mutually adverse effects on the gas cycle. This reduces the exhaust gas back pressure and improves gas exchange.

The results are increased output due to improved cylinder charge with fresh mixture, more torque at low revs and very immediate response times.

Other engine measures include new pistons, an optimised air intake and charge air cooling, as well as extensive software developments. Spray-guided direct petrol injection with piezo injectors, the all-aluminium crankcase, the four-valve-per-cylinder design with camshaft adjustment, air-water charge air cooling, alternator management, the ECO start/stop function and the gliding mode have all been retained. To sum up, the eight-cylinder engine thrills with its exceptional power delivery and powerful acceleration in all engine speed ranges combined with maximum efficiency for low consumption and emission values.
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:28 PM
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So the difference is moving to a Twin Scroll turbo setup, larger intercoolers, and different pistons.

I would presume that both that of the C63 and E63 are forged, so unless they changed the pistons for the sake of compression, perhaps they went with a slightly stronger alloy given the engines higher factory output.

Simple answer for those wondering would be that you would purchase the manifolds and turbos from the E63's M177 or GTR's M178 and install them with an ECU recalibration and you could gain a lot more power. You also may need more fuel as I do not know the volume of the stock injectors.

Honestly wish to get more detailed engine specifications for the M17X series engines.
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Old 06-20-2017, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by zdonner View Post
So the difference is moving to a Twin Scroll turbo setup, larger intercoolers, and different pistons.

I would presume that both that of the C63 and E63 are forged, so unless they changed the pistons for the sake of compression, perhaps they went with a slightly stronger alloy given the engines higher factory output.

Simple answer for those wondering would be that you would purchase the manifolds and turbos from the E63's M177 or GTR's M178 and install them with an ECU recalibration and you could gain a lot more power. You also may need more fuel as I do not know the volume of the stock injectors.

Honestly wish to get more detailed engine specifications for the M17X series engines.
The GTR does not use twin-scroll turbos/manifolds, that was misinformation. Only the E63S has this setup, though I'm sure the updated S63 will have it as well once it comes out. And yes, theoretically the twin-scroll manifolds and turbos should bolt right onto a C63 - you will just need software.

I doubt that this will be more cost effective than simply getting upgraded PURE turbos ($3000 for stage 1) that bolt onto the stock manifolds. They've already made 630 HP to the wheels on 93 pump gas, which is around 700 crank HP. http://www.pureturbos.com/store/merc...de-turbos.html

Last edited by AlexZTuned; 06-20-2017 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 06-22-2017, 02:37 AM
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I would still favor a twin-scroll-setup, as larger mono-scroll-turbos will make the turbo-lag even worse. The stock M177 in the C63S does need some time to spool up its turbines below 3.000 rpm - and as my car is a daily driver, that spends 99% of its time at those rpms, I would definitely keep that as close to stock as possible.
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Old 06-22-2017, 04:03 PM
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W205 C63s 2015
A1771400900
A1771401000

Search the net for these part numbers....

i know the manifolds are split pulse but I can't find anything on the turbos, I know the factory units are made by Borg Warner (B03G). Maybe someone on here knows someone with a gtr or e63 and can snap a pic of the data plate on the turbo for me?
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:27 PM
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FYI, Some may have seen.....

E63/GTR turbos would be great daily street upgrade...I can get complete for around 12k euros. E63 are the same as GTR. You would need turbos, manifolds, lower heat shield, coolant hoses. Even better with new wheels in those housings.

I have a set of GTR twin scroll manifolds on my C63s. . I didn't use the GTR/E63 turbos, I went bigger. The manifolds are larger tube diameter and twin scroll pairing. Although i have not taken advantage of twin scroll feature, the castings were needed for my fitment.

The stock c63 manifolds are very small at v-band, as well as turbine housing, causing tremendous EGT's and ultimately limiting power. I changed the GTR v-band flange to accept larger BorgWarner EFR's. Currently stuck at 800hp on 91oct, because of stock in-tank fuel pump output and map sensor limitations. New pumps are in the works....along with drop-in MB 4bar map sensor.

Lots of pics on my Instagram @Power_Technik
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:35 PM
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2017 c63r edition 1
C63s Left , E63s right

Last edited by power-technik; 06-23-2017 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:09 PM
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'17 AMG C63S Coupe
Originally Posted by power-technik View Post
C63s Left , GTR right
I've seen this before

Just so that there isn't further confusion, this is an E63S manifold, not a GTR. The GTR does NOT use twin-scroll turbos and manifolds. They use modified single scroll turbos.

Straight from Daimlers press release on the GTR:

More power, more torque, faster response: the engine

The heart of the new high-performance athlete is pumping stronger than ever: the AMG 4.0-litre twin-turbo engine in the AMG GT R has an output of 430 kW (585 hp), which is 55 kW (75 hp) more than the previous top-of-the-range engine in the GT S. The peak torque of 700 Nm is available between 1900 and 5500 rpm.

The increase in performance was achieved with the help of new turbochargers with modified compressor machining, smaller wastegate aneroid capsule and sharpened engine mapping. The boost pressure supplied by the turbochargers has been increased from 1.2 bar in the AMG GT to 1.35 bar. In addition, the exhaust ports have been optimised and the compression ratio modified. The entire combustion process has been retuned.

A correspondingly modified application of the accelerator characteristics, charge-pressure build-up and transmission parameters ensures that the engine responds to load changes even more spontaneously and that gear changes are effected with even greater speed. The fact that the two-mass flywheel is 0.7 kilograms lighter than its counterpart in the AMG GT S likewise contributes to the highly agile impression.

The eight-cylinder unit thrills with its spontaneous response, precisely measured power output and linear power delivery with powerful thrust in all engine speed ranges, all of which makes the car far easier to control when driving at the limit. To make this possible, the sophisticated engine control electronics also take into account the current driving status and control the accelerator characteristics as a function of the occurring lateral forces also.

The AMG 4.0-litre V-8 engine features the tried-and-tested twin turbochargers, which are not mounted on the outside of the cylinder banks but rather inside the V configuration – experts call it a 'hot inside V'. The benefits are: a compact engine design, spontaneous response from the turbochargers and low exhaust gas emissions thanks to optimum air flow for the close-coupled catalytic converters. This basic principle of the new AMG V-8 family has been further optimised for the AMG GT R and enables further improved performance. The maximum charge pressure is 1.35 bar; the turbochargers have a maximum speed of 186,000 revolutions per minute.


http://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSi...l?oid=12501655

So the GTR uses single-scroll turbos/manifolds like the standard M177's, but with a larger machined compressor wheel, modified wastegate, and higher boost.
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Old 08-02-2017, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by power-technik View Post
FYI, Some may have seen.....

E63/GTR turbos would be great daily street upgrade...I can get complete for around 12k euros. E63 are the same as GTR. You would need turbos, manifolds, lower heat shield, coolant hoses. Even better with new wheels in those housings.

I have a set of GTR twin scroll manifolds on my C63s. . I didn't use the GTR/E63 turbos, I went bigger. The manifolds are larger tube diameter and twin scroll pairing. Although i have not taken advantage of twin scroll feature, the castings were needed for my fitment.

The stock c63 manifolds are very small at v-band, as well as turbine housing, causing tremendous EGT's and ultimately limiting power. I changed the GTR v-band flange to accept larger BorgWarner EFR's. Currently stuck at 800hp on 91oct, because of stock in-tank fuel pump output and map sensor limitations. New pumps are in the works....along with drop-in MB 4bar map sensor.

Lots of pics on my Instagram @Power_Technik
So...whatever became of this? Anyone else try this route?
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Old 08-02-2017, 07:55 AM
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someone gets it lol. Impressive, more so then the pure upgrade imo do to less turbo lag. Still waiting on an upgrade kit for the c63 or jumping ship. The throttle response would be some much better with twin scrolls on this car it would be stellar.
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Old 10-21-2017, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by power-technik View Post
FYI, Some may have seen.....

E63/GTR turbos would be great daily street upgrade...I can get complete for around 12k euros. E63 are the same as GTR. You would need turbos, manifolds, lower heat shield, coolant hoses. Even better with new wheels in those housings.

I have a set of GTR twin scroll manifolds on my C63s. . I didn't use the GTR/E63 turbos, I went bigger. The manifolds are larger tube diameter and twin scroll pairing. Although i have not taken advantage of twin scroll feature, the castings were needed for my fitment.

The stock c63 manifolds are very small at v-band, as well as turbine housing, causing tremendous EGT's and ultimately limiting power. I changed the GTR v-band flange to accept larger BorgWarner EFR's. Currently stuck at 800hp on 91oct, because of stock in-tank fuel pump output and map sensor limitations. New pumps are in the works....along with drop-in MB 4bar map sensor.

Lots of pics on my Instagram @Power_Technik
Power_technik,

How has you research and development progressed.

Are you developing a kit to sell as an upgrade?

can you confirm that you have fitted GTRtwin scroll manifolds but fitted larger single port turbos and not twin screw turbos???

Where can the twin scroll manifolds be purchased from?
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Old 10-23-2017, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by JacobsT View Post
I know both cars use the same engine but there are differences in the turbo's.
Early tuning by DME on the E63S yielded 656 RWHP. Flash only.

If there is a reliable way to swap the twin scrolls from the E63S to the C63S it would be an absolute monster. Easily 700+ WHP with a refined tune and DPs.
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Old 10-23-2017, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by KEMA View Post
Early tuning by DME on the E63S yielded 656 RWHP. Flash only.

If there is a reliable way to swap the twin scrolls from the E63S to the C63S it would be an absolute monster. Easily 700+ WHP with a refined tune and DPs.
All we need is someone to develope Aftermarket twin scroll exhaust manifolds.
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Old 10-24-2017, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by KEMA View Post
If there is a reliable way to swap the twin scrolls from the E63S to the C63S it would be an absolute monster. Easily 700+ WHP with a refined tune and DPs.
I dunno if fuel is gonna be a limiting factor at that point, but you're unlikely to only make 50 more hp with upgraded turbos. If there's adequate fuel, you should be able to make a lot more than that. The twin scroll isn't for more power (peakwise); it's for more power under the curve (greater usable power = maintaining super responsive low end torque while still making big HP #s).

Originally Posted by RDO247 View Post
All we need is someone to develope Aftermarket twin scroll exhaust manifolds.
A) Development isn't going to be cheap.

B) Probably not gonna have high volume sales, which again will keep prices high

C) As power-technik mentioned, all you need are the E63 BW EFR turbos, twin scroll manifold, lower heat shield, and coolant hoses. It should be a fairly straighforward swap. Then the ECU tune for the power, and TCU tune, reprogramming of the solenoid control, and increasing pump pressure to raise torque capacity.

Last edited by FDNewbie; 10-24-2017 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 11-09-2017, 09:56 PM
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You are all making a lot of sense.
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Old 02-26-2019, 03:02 PM
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Anyone have done this yet?
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Old 02-26-2019, 04:34 PM
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C63S Coupe
Interesting for MB to make twin scrolls on the v8 like this. It doesn't look beneficial. It would need cylinders from each bank feeding the scroll to actually have benefits just like the BMW engines. I think this is more for the displacement on demand the E63 has and the C and GT dont. Naturally a twin scroll housing will be physically larger but I think the flow isn't what the eye sees. Plus it seems like doing this requires a lot of little changes such as modifying downpipes and stuff.
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Old 02-26-2019, 07:07 PM
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E63 engine uses different pistons and different heads/modified the oiling system is as dry sump compared to wet on c63 e63 turbos are also bigger compared to c63 turbos

The engines are not the same
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Old 02-26-2019, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mr747 View Post
E63 engine uses different pistons and different heads/modified the oiling system is as dry sump compared to wet on c63 e63 turbos are also bigger compared to c63 turbos

The engines are not the same
Err no, the E63 is a wet sump M177 4.0L just like the C63. Only the M178 4.0L engines in the GT's have a dry sump. The E63 does have different pistons, air intake, intercoolers, and a twin scroll turbo setup. I'm fairly certain the heads are the same as well, unless someone posts measurements with a caliper of the cylinder head intake and exhaust ports on a E63 vs. C63. I'm actually curious about that, I don't think they're any different.
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Old 02-28-2019, 07:42 AM
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Did someone really complain about a C63 having turbo lag?? Lol. Granted I have a C63s and open intakes which makes a noticeable difference in throttle response and “peppyness” of the car, but even with the stock intakes the car is still really responsive. These little snails spool instantly compared to any decent sized precision turbo. Problem is the performance aftermarket for these cars is so limited...you only have exhaust, tunes, piggybacks, a few intake and a few turbo options. That’s it. These cars are really just meant to be lightly modded, driven and enjoyed imo. They will never be high horsepower freeway monsters or fully built feeling crushers.
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Old 02-28-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by gOt BoOsT View Post
Did someone really complain about a C63 having turbo lag?? Lol. Granted I have a C63s and open intakes which makes a noticeable difference in throttle response and “peppyness” of the car, but even with the stock intakes the car is still really responsive. These little snails spool instantly compared to any decent sized precision turbo. Problem is the performance aftermarket for these cars is so limited...you only have exhaust, tunes, piggybacks, a few intake and a few turbo options. That’s it. These cars are really just meant to be lightly modded, driven and enjoyed imo. They will never be high horsepower freeway monsters or fully built feeling crushers.
Yes, well if you were used to driving a normally-aspirated manual transmission, then I do think you would be able to detect some lag. Whether it's the transmission, the turbos, or both I cannot say: but there is some lag IMHO. I wouldn't say it's a problem - just very different than what I was used to.
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Old 02-28-2019, 11:42 AM
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Turbolag...:

However, at higher RPMs it is pretty responsive
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Old 02-28-2019, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by J.M.G. View Post
Turbolag...:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BhUJNqcjswZ/

However, at higher RPMs it is pretty responsive
why is this guy recording a video in Comfort mode lol
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