I've heard the E63 engine has stronger pistons, bigger turbos and a few other bits. Would the engine and ECU drop straight in? Or would you need to use the C63 ECU and tune it.

Doing the swap and selling the C63 engine could make it quite cheap.

 

What are your goals? It may be more cost effective just to upgrade the stock turbos. If you're planning to push the power levels too high, the transmission is going to become a weak link.

 

Too much work and money for the amount of hours/money being spent on labor. If your going to pull the motor just build it with upgraded and stronger internals. The amount of extra money you will spend trying to get an e63 motor then drop it in, not knowing any factors that go into it, it just doesn’t make financial sense and may require fabrication. A lot of unknown factors.

if you want e63 power:
go fbo with pure turbos and a custom dyno tune. do that all in one shot you will save loads of money and be arguably faster than an e63s anyway.

 

You have an odd take on saving money. The price of an E63 engine is the same as a C63, so buying one and selling one is net zero.
The cost of pulling an engine and fitting one is never going away. A shop that's experienced can do it without much hassle if it's a straight swap, I was wondering if it is.

I've broke engines pushing tunes and bigger turbos, mercedes built stronger internals on the E63 for a reason.

Buying bigger turbos was £5k for my other car, then I needed pipework, labour, brackets, injectors, etc. Probably looking at 8-9k for a turbo swap, with old turbos to offset it with, so 6-7k net.

What's engine labor swap £2k? Cost of engine £8k, sell engine £8k. Plus a grand for miscellaneous. £3k net.

Engine rebuild plus parts would be £15-20k easy with nothing to offset it with.

Christ, I spent over 5k on brackets, fittings, hoses, on the last engine build! :-D I know how much engine builds cost, so anyone saying they are cheaper is just talking nonsense.

I don't have any power goals, was just wondering about it.

 

so your telling me your used engine for whatever price you sell it at, you can get an e63s engine at the same price? Maybe I am being ignorant or naive but I highly doubt that is possible. Mercedes wouldn’t charge the same price for technically the same engine in a higher priced car. That’s just how MB tax works.

I would be surprised if it is a straight swap.

You can buy engine mounts for a M157 which will cost you 400. But if the s class has the same engine mounts they will charge you double that.

 

For what year C63, and S or non-S? I'm just doing some educated guessing here due to not having all the details, but I would think at least with the FL C63S (2019+) it most likely won't be a straight swap due to the new 9-stage traction control system that's part of the ECU. It's very tightly integrated with the engine's torque management to be able to fine tune the torque delivery and to react much faster to changing conditions. The only other AMGs that have this same traction control system are the GT R and GT R Pro, so that might be an easier swap, but the GT R has a dry sump instead of a wet sump, so that might not fit in the C63 w/o modification of the engine bay. It's true that the different variants of these engines are mostly differentiated with different pistons (not just strength) but different shapes as well, different turbos and a corresponding software mapping. In addition the GT variants have a dry sump, while all other variants have a wet sump.

 

£8050 delivered, 2k miles. E63 engine.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192780974913

£8000 delivered, 19k miles, C63 engine
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264144352271

 

Good points. I personally wouldn't do anything to my FL estate, that's the reliable family hack under warranty and staying standard, except maybe secondary cat delete. An estate wouldn't be the platform I'd choose to modify either, I think a Coupé would be my choice if I did.

E63 also has the twin scroll manifolds too.

This is just theoretical for discussion.

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Some of my friends are doing E63 pistons and turbos on the C63, still waiting for the results.

 

I would personally try to avoid opening up the engine and just swap out the blocks. i noticed a lot of packaging differences so you would need to bolt on a lot of the C63 parts to make it work if using an E63 engine.

I found some info on all the differences:

Engine:

CSO Engine management (Cylinder Shut Off)
Twin scroll turbos and flow separated manifolds
New pistons with lower compression
Identical crankcase, but a chill cast method
Two mass flywheel with centrifugal pendulum
Oil pump with increased delivery rate
Oil separator adapted to installation space
Engine cover and modified flow concept
Optimised high pressure fuel pumps with higher delivery rate and modified fuel rails
Charge air distributor, adapted to flow pattern
Air filter, tailored to increased output
Charge air cooler, rearranged and adapted to increased output
ME-SFI control unit at top and cooled via low temp circuit - this is basically a cooling circuit for the engine management unit
Larger coolant expansion tank, (left cylinder head cover)

Notes
Forged pistons allowing an ignition pressure load of up to 140 bar.
Two mass flywheel is for reducing the rotational irregularities of the crankshaft in half engine operation under CSO activation
2 stage oil pump is ECU controlled, switching between 2-4 bar
Low noise and throughput optimised high pressure fuel pumps with a quantity control valve. Max delivery is 200 bar, same location as C.
Fuel routed through larger rails and more robust injectors
Twin scroll combine cylinders 1+4, 2+3, 5+8, 6+7. Lower exhaust back pressure and improved gas exchange
Effective cooling output increased with additional nose radiator to take into account higher engine performance
newly developed fan motor with an output of apx 1000w

 

Sounds like a lot of trouble for +100hp on base engine...seems if you want more power it’s cheaper and easier to upgrade turbo and trans kit ...yeah, I know still no forged pistons but for that much trouble... and likely cost I would go the route of modifying the C63 engine.

 

You are looking at it the wrong way.

When you look at the trouble Mercedes go to for just an extra 100hp, it's no wonder engines don't last long after a remap.

 

Do you have data showing that a good tune (like a Renntech stage 1 yielding 80hp or so) has killed engines quickly? I am not even sure what the typical life expectation is for a M177 (maybe still to new to really know?) but I for sure would not know how much a good tune reduces that. When I say good Renntech, Velos, Weistec and such...experienced tuners who optimize the car performance and don’t try to push it to its brink.

 

One post ago you were talking about new turbos and a trans upgrade, now you want data on "80hp killing engines". I have no idea; I don't go round counting M177 engine failures, but I have broken mapped engines and felt the pain, even supposedly "bullet proof" mezgers.

MSL are offering 620hp on a map and downpipes, for a standard engine. Turbos are getting on for 700. All on a standard C63 engine. Yet Merc add extra rads, bigger expansion tanks, cooling circuits, bigger fuel and oil pumps, bigger rails, stronger injectors and forged pistons with bigger turbos for 100hp. It does make you think...

You can make your own choice, I'm not telling you or advising you anything, it's just a discussion thread.

If my car was out of warranty, 80hp would probably be an acceptable risk. If I wanted 700 reliable hp on new turbos, an E63 block with 80hp ontop would be a pretty good bet too I'd have thought. 700 on a C63 block with its higher compression ratio, might raise an eyebrow.

 

You are getting too excited here. Simply offered the idea of stage 1 tune as that gets you close to the same as stock E63 engine. Simple as that. And my question was if you would know how that would affect reliability based on data as you generalize killing engines.

 

It's not about getting E63 power, it's about a cost effective way of getting a stronger engine to take more power.

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you are confusing your own post, you started hypothesizing how much work and cost to swap to E63 and if possible (nothing about E63 and then some mods on top), then a few posts ago stating you would consider it because remapping C63 kills them quickly and E63 should last. That poked my interest and simply ask if you know about data (and I mean it) that show that C63s fail quickly ...and my point about turbos was you can get to whatever power you like on the C63 at much less cost and trouble .....and need your tranny done either way or that’s to be known the next weak spot.

 

I opened that the E63 is a stronger engine, I wonder if it can be transplanted, it's open book beyond that, I've not stated any power goals whether it's modified or standard, it's just been about the engine. You brought up modifying and the discussion turned that way, but none of that was in my posts before our conversation. I haven't said C63 engines break, I've said Mercedes put alot of effort in for 100hp. You can make up your own mind, but I'm sure there was a good reason for it. If it was perfectly fine to just put bigger turbos on a C63 lump and add a tune, I'm sure Mercedes would have done it. I have no facts, that's just an opinion and I'm entitled to it, as are you. But don't try the straw man tactics.

E63 is clearly a stronger engine, built to take more power. You've read that as me saying the C63 engine is made of cheese. It's not. It's just the E63 engine is stronger.

 

I’d think the biggest issue would be transmission compatibility. Has anyone tried fitting a 7-speed 722.9 trans/bell housing to the flywheel since the E63S has an AWD 9-speed?

My intuition tells me this swap would be more likely possible on a FL C63 since it has the RWD version of the new 9-speed MCT.

I know you want stronger and seem to have rational for why AMG went above and beyond for just an extra 100 HP, but the also have to remember MB needs to differentiate the engines enough (since they are, at their core, based on the same design), in order to charge more for more performance - and we’re talking about a 4500lb Sedan with AWD. Those things hook and with the twin scroll turbos they make them torque monsters down low, so I can see the rationale for beefing up the engine... but the C63 M177 has been proven to hold some pretty serious power. It’s the trans that usually needs attention/lets go before the engine does.

 

SIMMB -our little exchange is going into the wrong direction: Here your quote: “t's no wonder engines don't last long after a remap.”, assuming you talk about the C63 engine compared to the E63. am still interested for real about your quote how you came to this conclusion.

 

You are right the main problem here is with the tranny, there is another C63 with GTR pistons and its doing 60-130 in 5.92. And i have seen some of the guys doing near that number with the stock pistons as well but the main problem is the tranny and the traction

 

I'm just talking generally, from my own experience, not specifically the M177. I think I mentioned a few posts back, I've broken enough engines over the years. 👍

 

Lol you'd be better off just buying a E63s. 2018s have dipped pretty hard, but you'll still have the major drawback with all AMGs, the trans.