SimMB

What proof do I need that these are next gen, other than them actually preceding the previous generation!

Two posts ago the response couldn't be noticed, now it's the only discernable difference! Maybe they did it so those pesky new owners can't get as much power on a tune? U know, just to annoy them a bit.

In the UK facelift cars are having no trouble getting the same power as PFL cars after a tune.

Why wouldn't they improve on a 5yo design? The last aftermarket turbos i bought have, incorporating xona cartridges and next generation aero blades for improved performance, it's not exactly a massive surprise or wild assumption to make.

So how much cost did Mercedes save re-engineering, re-tooling, testing and manufacturing new turbo units, for what?

The most likely reason (going by years of dealing with manufacturing suppliers) is the turbo supplier has engineered new technology and incorporated it into their offerings, you see it's difficult to continue producing old stuff when they need to stay competitive outweighs the benefit. It's just normal lifecycle/obsolescence and with it comes better performance. If they didn't, Mercedes wouldn't keep using them. The only cost saving is dropping the production of old technology.

So your PFL turbos are obsolete. Sorry to have to have to break it to you.

tobeit

I am not sure if I should laugh or cry about these endless FL vs PFL. Makes no sense...every car goes through life cycles and the hope is newer cars have improvements, sometimes cost reductions, sometimes fixes to known problems etc etc. Also ask the guys with their 10 year old 911 turbos if they think any less about their 911 vs a brand new model. Or how about those R34 owners...old technogy but legendary cars people love for various reasons. I bought my 18 PFL because I loved the test drive and took it home from the dealer lot that day and did not even research when a facelift model comes out and what it will have.
So who cares if you have FL or PFL...for most considerations on a grand scheme they are the same generation of cars. So, who cares.

elitex

Happens in every platform. Just check out the Bmw forums when either a FL or a new model is launched. Good lord. M3 guys E30>E46>E92>F82>G82 <(not even launched yet). Same for M5 guys. Some guys are claiming F10 better that F90 when others claimed F10 was the worst ever. Lmao. It’s never ending.

Same thing happening to the FL R8 and imo it’s just a better car. Noise is an issue we’re just going to have to deal with aftermarket post 2020 models. That’s the new reality.

SimMB

It's only harmless debate and a bit of fun really. But if you look at all the threads, it's usually a PFL owner justifying why he was too tight to pony up for a new one. Except the guy who sold his FL because of the noise (which we have later found is solved by installing catted downpipes).

Actually I've just measured the thread thickness on the steering wheel stitching, the FL is 3 microns thinner, therefore the PFL is clearly better and more durable. Bloody Merc cost savings again..🤦‍♂️

superswiss

Yes, I explained this a while back on another thread. The current accepted limit of 74 dB is going down to 68 dB. That's a 6 dB drop, which means 60% quieter than what's currently allowed. I'm honestly not looking forward to upcoming performance cars out of Europe. Some manufactures at the higher end are fitting different exhausts for US market cars, for example the FL R8. Ford also had to put a different exhaust on the GTs they sell in Europe. At least for the lower end AMGs such as the A45, AMG has already stated that fitting different exhausts for different markets is not viable financially, so we'll have to see what the next C63 will sound like. If it's actually going to be the rumored 4cyl hybrid, then the V8 sound is gone anyway. Enjoy it while you can.

tobeit

You lost me right here...you make a big assumption right here that those people only have pre-owned cars.

SimMB

New = latest model (as in facelift/new design)

Jeesh!

untamedd

Europe is boring. Taking the fun out of everything.

Beast

good excuse to upgrade to Pure turbos IMO

AlexZTuned

There is a difference between facelift models and next generation models (on a new chassis)

I bought my Coupe in 2016 the moment it was available to order and I’ve enjoyed every second of it. I laugh every time MB sends me an upsell letter trying to get me to trade in my car for one with an LCD screen for ONLY 30k!

AlexZTuned

The moment you said Xona you lost me. Mercedes isn’t going to strap on expensive BB turbos when they can achieve their desired results through a small journal bearing turbo. The fact that they downsized the turbos for FL proved just that. Show me that they are now using new turbo technology that came out since the M178 5 years ago.

Keep in mind, the OG post says 1.8mm in BOTH the compressor wheel AND the compressor housing itself. That is not adding efficiency, that’s taking power off the table when you start to push the turbos beyond the efficiency table.

And I’ve done my share of R&D with these turbos. If someone wants to send or donate a FL turbo, I’ll do the same measurements as I did here:









And here’s a set of stage 2 turbos with upgraded compressor and turbine wheels:









I’m happy to share my findings with this forum (unlike many others), so if someone wants to share all the dimensions of the FL turbo (inducer and exducer for compressor and turbine wheels), then we can actually have something of substance to discuss besides FL
vs PFL.

japamg

My god, now I am really happy I sold my FL Hahahahaha

cheers!

Dasweb

Pretty upsetting having just owned my FL for a month.

Sad to see them cut costs on such an icon.

japamg

Vade retro!

Profomo

This is clearly a bait thread... This is the second thread the OP started to fan the flames between pre-FL and FL owners.

Just enjoy the car you have - don't like it? Change cars.

purplewidow

you get a whole new trans and the ride control from the gtr, oh and an lcd screen.. a big one.. lol.. plus suspension refinements and some cosmetic changes.. for a facelift the changes are substantial. I mean you got an all new, faster, more efficient transmission, and suspension changes and software from a supercar.. I'd say that's pretty huge.. lol.. what you lost is the pops on the downshifts and making it pop easier in lower rpms when letting off the throttle... when I look at that I laugh and don't know how someone can still justify the pfl. The FL still sounds amazing.. Most say it looks better.. It's more efficient and puts the power down better. I'd say that's mission accomplished for any company for a FL... Sucks the EU is ruining the sound for all of us as well as destroying 8,10,12 cylinder engines.

FDNewbie

You don't need to ask. You can see from vehicle sales and resale reflect what owners value. For example, the plethora of new GT3 owners selling their cars for the previous gen, until Porsche made a manual version available. Or the skyrock in pricing on air cooled 911 Turbos.

As for R34 owners, myself being a JDM junkie and growing up in that era, I can tell you those cars gave you a feel you just can't replicate in today's cars. You didn't have to worry about 1000 sensors that can go wrong, electronic gremlins once you're past the factory warranty, etc. It was everything you needed in a car (with a manual trans), and none of the stuff you didn't. And the car did whatever you told it to do, right or wrong. Made you a better/more careful/calculated driver too. I actually used to own an R34, and I can tell you, when I tracked a GTR (new gen), it felt like a BOAT, and sure, it did everything you wanted it to do, and it did it very well...no doubt, it was an amazing car. It accomplished nearly everything perfect. It simply forgot one central thing: The Driver. The driver's experience and feel of you being in actual control of the car vs 20 computers guiding your every move... You simply lost the connection to asphalt that old school gave you. So yea, newer isn't necessarily better (albeit it may mean faster).

Sure the bigger screen is nice. But for example, I am not a fan of the FL front grill at all. Or the steering wheel. Or an LCD screen gauge. I like simple. Old school gauges with a real needle. Sure the trans and suspension are better. But lets be real, of all the guys here on this forum, how many will actually be able to take advantage of those upgrades? I'd love to hear who's hit the performance limits of their PFL and *had* to sell their car for a FL cuz they needed that extra few tenths of a second on the track due to the enhanced suspension and improved tranny. I'm in the market for another C63S right now, and I'm specifically limiting my search to 17s and 18s, cuz I don't want a FL. Finances isn't a concern; if you gave me a FL, I'd sell it and get a PFL instead. Cuz that's my actual preference.

But then again, I'm probably one of the older guys in this crowd (growing up in the 90s era of JDM sportscars), so while I value simplistic yet functional, many of the newer gen are all about the the new tech and gizmos, even if you'll never really use or need it.

Having said that, I won't be surprised at all if the W205 C63 ends up marking the end of an era...loud exhausts and big block motors, due to the new EU regulations. Might be worth holding onto your cars in the long run...

SimMB

Upon release the R34 was also criticised for being tech laden and accused of being a play station. Same as the R35, which to be honest, after 13 years is looking pretty dated, as is the tech that's in it. The GR6 has loads of limitations and pretty clunky compared to new boxes. I found it quite agricultural, but I loved it for that, was a driver's car for sure.

As for being a boat, it's the nimblest big car I've ever owned and belies it's size.

AlexZTuned

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you don’t have supercar suspension from a GTR. The suspension geometry on the W205 doesn’t allow for anything close to what you get in a GTR - and I drove the Coupe and the GTR around COTA so I have first hand experience driving at their limits. If you want your W205 to handle the best it possibly can, regardless of whether it’s a facelift PFL, go to Steve Dinan’s Carbahn and purchase every suspension part they have available. The only thing the FL has going for it is the staged traction control system.

You said you don’t understand how people can justify the PFL with all the new fluff features added to the FL - again, you’re disregarding the majority of members on here that purchased PFL’s when they were still brand new. Why do you keep assuming the only people that own a PFL are second hand owners? I still have a factory warranty remaining through the end of the year on my 17’ Coupe.

In terms of visuals, both exterior and interior, I prefer the PFL. The changes are so minor and superficial (compared to other facelifts in the past) that there is nothing visually appealing to me about the FL. The Panamericana grill is cool, that’s about if. I could not care less if I had redundant mode selector controls on my steering wheel, or digital black slab to stare at. I hate the new FL headlights, maybe that’s just me - most people probably don’t even know the difference.

For what it’s worth, I’ve had my engine/trans/suspension updated multiple times - and just had the latest suspension software updated when I had my car in for service last week and every setting feels more compliant and better. The PFL has only gotten better and better over time.

You can keep the new 9 speed. I have a fundamental disagreement that you should not need 3rd gear to hit 60 mph if you have a twin turbo V8. I know it’s faster, yadda yadda yadda, but that new gear ratio is more suited for a 2.0L turbo than a twin turbo V8. The only cool thing about the 9 speed (assuming it can stay in one piece when tuned) is the possibility of swapping the E63S trans and front drive axles to do a 4 matic W205 C63 swap 😉

FDNewbie

Agreed. I wouldn't call the R34 the posterchild for JDM era purist vehicles. Legendary, yes. But if you want purity and simplicity, I'd point to toward the 3rd Gen RX-7 (FD). But then again, I'm probably a bit (or a lot) biased

Let me qualify that. It's front heavy (they say it's 50/50, but it's closer to 55/45) and while it will execute whatever task you ask it to with precision, the *feedback* it gives is quite numb. In my opinion. And I felt the same with the NXS. Handles really well, but you don't get that feedback that tells you exactly how far you are from the edge/losing control.

tobeit

Looks I steered up some JDM discussion - that's fun - hope it does not start another controversy, just making a point.

SteveDesai

I reached out to renntech directly asking about turbo size and their rep told me that the facelift cars have the same size turbo?

Now I'm really confused. Who is right?

raudiace4

Smaller turbos are better for response, not good for power on the high end as they run out of efficiency up top higher speeds. So while the smaller ones make the same power as the PFL cars, they won't make the same power on tuned cars. This should bother you if you planned to get a tune and downpipes on your FL car and expect it to be as fast as the PFL car with same mods. If you're planning to do bigger turbos it shouldn't matter.

But MAN lol, i'm glad I have the PFL.

JPM-3

Quick Question - Given that the evidence in the OP photo indicates the compressor and compressor housing are smaller in the FL models, what is your thought on the effect on the pure turbo upgrade for example. If they use the OEM core and just upgrade compressor wheel, internals, etc, would a smaller housing in the FL turbo potentially further limit top-end power as compared to a Pure turbo upgrade for the PFL (same "Stage")?

Encore818

Seems all PFL owners are.

And that's great! We should all love our cars.

But I don't get why almost every PFL owner does everything they can to make their car look like a FL.

Might as well get a FL and fix the sound, rather than get a PFL and change everything about it.