Interesting discourse on ABC versus coilover. It seems the consensus is that the ABC is better and it's just an issue of cost of repair. It looks like Shiv, who was not overly concerned with that issue, got it right and has an awesome vehicle that will handle as intended (and maybe even better than as intended since he used reengineered valve blocks with improved dampening).

So Shiv, i know you didnt want to share the cost replacing the system but i wonder if you wouldn't mind doing so. I can see that there are a number of us that may be faced with this decision in the future and it might be good to have the facts.

Personally my car is absolutely perfect and i love it. So if the system ever failed i would want to think about how best to approach it. Economically, if the system fails the car is essentially worthless. So for me if it cost around $10000 to $15000 to fix i would probably do it because you have a supercar for that price. If it was more than that then i probably wouldn't and i would either move on or compromise with a coilover.

Clearly for us that already own the car and know it well, it is a different economic decision than someone thinking of buying one.

 

there is no secret about what he spend on that
I can tell you
only parts he spend between 7500 and 11000
depending on if he has pro accounts or not

 

There's no need for ABC to be so expensive to fix. See the thread in my signature.

I just replaced the tandem pump on my silver car for about $250, and tomorrow I'll repair a burst hose on my black car for about $40 plus some Pentosin.

Nick

 

Of course not Nick, I agree
but that depends how crazy and fanatic you are
I prefer spending money in HP
I also spend money in replacing all electronics with latest upgrades
You and me spend money on intercoolers upgrades
others keep the car stock and make everythong new
I really think that it's a great adventure what he did
I would do that and spend thousends too, but on a CL65

 

I sure do love my CL 65 !!

 

I think that is the interesting thing about this car. It can be different things to different people---maybe why i think it really is a true "supercar".

There are a lot of people here like pmercury and Dr Matt that are interested in hp and how fast it can go in a straight line. While i respect that, and i really loved my 71 GTO, i am not really into that now. (Though blowing the doors off of a GTO at the track with a staid German car would be fun--at least once). "In the day" (as Geraldius would say) i actually thought the GTO was a great handling car with its "highly technologically advanced" variable ratio steering!

I prefer a great driving and handling experience. My car, stock, does 0 to 60 in just over 4 seconds. It is almost as fast as my Ferrari and, personally, that is fast enough. So i would far rather spend my money on the overall ride and handling experience.

Different things for different people. If what you are into is how fast you can do the 1/4 mile in a straight line at the local drag strip, then coilovers would be fine and spending money on a great ABC system would be a total waste. However, if you are into the driving experience and want an all round great daily driver, then maybe you would spend it on the ABC rather than the hp.

Of course there is a limit to what anyone would spend and that is why i thought Shiv's project was so interesting--what is the vanishing point?

 

In my mind, comparing the CL65 abilities to other cars and comparing prices, a properly functioning car is worth 45K.
​​​​​ Given that I got a low mileage car in amazing condition for 25K, it leaves me a budget of 20K to fix everything.

I've still got 5K left over lol !!!

And while it doesn't handle like my Ferrari it's definitely a perfect daily driver and almost as fast in most conditions.


​​​​​

 

I agree with Nick that it can be done for less. However, given the engineering that went into this car, it's hard for me to use non factory parts to replace factory parts.

 

This is from memory not receipts, I throw away the receipts so that the wife can't find them lol

5K hoses
1.8k pump
2.2K front shocks
2.4K valve blocks

Non ABC

2.1k coil packs

This is all with pro accounts which give between 20 to 40 percent at the dealer, but I paid CA sales tax on all parts. In earlier posts I didn't always take those taxes into account.

Plus 4 days labor

 

My price was right

Don't regret it, your right, a clean and low miliage CL65 is 45k - 47k

In Switzeland you can find some perls with 12000 miles / 20000 km
brand new nearly never used
but 88.000 USD / 74.000 eur

bit extreme I agree

https://www.autoscout24.ch/de/d/merc...3d2003%26r%3d5

 

I'm sure MB appreciate your confidence and loyalty, but in the case of the ABC, IC EIS and ignition systems on the V12TT W215 & w220's, I don't think they've covered themselves in glory. Just because they're the manufacturer doesn't mean they're designed right.

I could rant all day about all those glaring shortcomings, but in the case of ABC, they use long-established industry-standard hardware, with 3/8" two-wire SAE 100 R2AT hose and 10mm steel pipes, same as countless tractors and fork-lifts. What makes it proprietary are the customised fittings and bends that are needed to fit the tiny spaces available.

Hydraulics should be commodity stuff. It has to be, because it's used everywhere, and needs an extensive support industry to keep it going. I never realised how ubiquitous and standardized it is, until I had my first hose failure.

Flexible hoses don't last the life of anything, and everyone except Mercedes realised this, and made sure that al hydraulic equipment was properly maintainable.

Firstly, there has to be periodic fluid and filter replacement to protect the equipment.
Second, the system must have periodic inspection, rather than crossing fingers and hoping nothing will happen.
Third, hose replacements should be factored into maintainability planning, because they WILL fail. Therefore they should be accessible and easy to replace without special tools or training.
Finally, it should be possible to replace just the hose, without removing the rest of the pipe assembly.

Industrial hoses have standard threaded fittings like BSP 1/4" or 1/2" for welded fittings, or JIC 37 degree for flared pipe ends - just like brake pipes, but on a larger scale.

You wouldn't remove a whole brake pipe just to replace a little flexible brake hose, would you? Brake pipe installations are a problem solved, but ABC is even more critical in some respects - it holds the car off the road, it runs at higher pressures, and it has a much higher duty cycle. So all the more need to get it right, and the solutions were already there.

My method is to remove the pipe assembly, clean the paint & rust off the pipe, cut the flexible hose out, and replace it with a cheap replacement hose with 10mm compression fittings that bolts right onto the stock pipes. JIC fittings would probably be better, but compression fittings need no special tools, and they're proven and reliable. I've done a dozen, and never had a failure in four years.

Hoses should be replaced every five years or so if you want to be sure they won't fail randomly. No-one anywhere will guarantee they'll last any longer than that, so you need to be pro-active, and treat them like timing belts if want to avoid disasters. That's the nature of the beast - it's not fit-and-forget / maintenance-free like MB have you believe.

Consequently, when a replaceable hose has been fitted, it's easy to fit a new one again when the time comes - be it for preventative maintenance, or due to the next failure some years down the line.

What I'm saying is that I'm doing what MB should have done all along.

Regards, Nick

 

nick, thanks for all your expertise and help on these cars. two comments 1- from your posts the abc pipe is 8mm with the exception of the pipes that go into the abc pump which are 10mm. correct? 2- i believe that the rear abc hose that you dropped the subframe to replace can be accessed by leaving the subframe in place and cutting the abc pipes where the connect to the hoses and using 8 mm compression fittings for a straight pipe connection attached to the correct length abc hoses. i believe this requires two separate hoses. i believe this is doable with the car on a lift. correct?

 

1. All the ABC steel pipes are 10mm OD, EXCEPT the two tandem pump outlet pipes, which are 12mm.

2. There are no hard and fast rules about replacing rear hoses. Both the OP of this thread, and I, concluded that you should to drop the subframe.

Doesn't mean it's impossible without dropping it. For example, you could leave the RHS mounts fastened and just drop the LHS. That might work, but I can't tell you if it does. What I do know is that dropping the subframe isn't difficult, and makes all the work very much easier. I think it's a good investment in time and probably the best way to do it.

The only significant obstacles are disconnecting the prop-shaft and park brake, but they takes minutes rather than hours. I do have a lift, and I don't think it helps.

Nick

 

Whether to use only new mb parts , or rebuilt abc pump and struts and rebuilt hoses , is all a personal decision . No wrong answer .

Given the low value of these cars , unles you have a. 65 amg , it can easily exceed the value of the car to use all new mb parts .

Very few few people will go for all new mb parts , or rebuild the entire system front to rear ... im glad shiv posted all that is involved in doing so !!