ctravis595

Smartadze- sounds like you spent more time over analyzing my posts rather than hypothesizing solutions ...

i never once said i over tightened my preload. I said I had to remove the preload set from the manufacturer because it was unsuitable. My experience about the ride height being improper came from one of your threads if I recall correctly, you and others implied the suspension does not settle the same, and despite careful measurements, you’ll need to make further adjustments to level things out because the kit does not compress congruently. Isn’t that a bad sign already??? How does it make sense for a kit to compress unevenly with matching settings/ride height levels... sounds like something isn’t right in the quality control. Who knows, maybe the “forum members” here were the few lucky ones who have gotten good yellow speed kits with no quality control issues and that’s the root of these “bounce” complaints

you also implied that those unsatisfied with their kits may not have chimed in. Most people aren’t going to go around confessing how they removed abc and landed with an unsafe kit, god forbid they ever try to sell the car. Removing abc is already a controversial subject on its own. It’s like how bad reviews of a restuarant can be more common than good reviews(but inversely with coilovers on w215), with bad reviews on restaurants you’ll find more, because a lot of people aren’t spending time leaving reviews for a satisfied experience as much as they want to go out of their way to make light of a bad one. I expect the opposite with people being “proud and satisfied “ with removing abc. Others on this board have thanked me for my sheer honesty on these subjects and taking the first dive into installing coilovers on a w215

here are just a few examples of other people below agreeing the yellow speed kit is bouncy. This took me 60 seconds to find, I’m sure I could find more examples of dissatisfaction with the yellow speed kit

have you tried strutmasters? Or are you speaking from the stance of someone who’s tried one coilover kit for W215? I’ve tried multiple kits so I have a better frame of reference most likely

we are probably better off focusing on solutions than semantics, yes I know some of my posts can seem contradictory at times. I update these threads more like a diary/thoughts catalog rather than a how-to book. Yes there were a couple times I had found improvements and thought I had found solutions for these issues. Hindsight is 20/20 and with more wheel-time and experience I have solidified my opinion that yellow speed isn’t safe. Perhaps I’ll go through and edit my posts so they are more congruent for your liking?

Rather i I think we should share what spring rates these “forum members” have found that are satisfactory. Because even with Pmercury experimenting with different spring rates, he will also make posts seemingly satisfied, then come back or make a new thread altogether saying otherwise .

also possibly worth mentioning, Pmercury has not updated or provided further insight on these threads in over a year or two. Who knows why, seemed like he was in the middle of building a light fix module and then dropped off in regards to w215 coilover threads. Perhaps he’s also about given up on this system

also worth mentioning I have a friend who experienced a leaking shock absorber one year of use with his yellow speed kit. So perhaps these “so many posts in so many threads , recalling bounce 56 times” is useful... god forbid someone has noticed a trend with unsafe behavior from their yellow speed kit and brings it to light... perhaps you’re thinking I am harming your resale value? I personally never planned on selling my w215 so I have nothing to lose in regards to downplaying my car/conversion

another point possibly worth mentioning, you are quite literally the only person who has said they prefer yellow speed handling over abc, and I’ve talked to 20 or more people about yellow speed. Did you not ever have a properly functioning abc system, and this is your first experience with a functioning suspension in your w215? That could explain it

edit:sorry if I seem combative, just a tad annoyed that instead of discussing ride height and spring rates we are trying to count how many times I used the word “bounce” and trying to find inconsistencies in my many posts exploring coilovers for this community. Even at times mistakingly putting words in my mouth saying things like I “over tightened the preload”. I usually find when people are making incorrect accusations, they are grasping for straws ...

ctravis595

donald seems like a nice guy, but turns out he either found the same methods I did, or he is recycling the information I have been sharing in W215 groups on Facebook. Because when a friend of mine inquired about their problems with yellow speed he said to remove the preload, sort of strange how the US distributor for yellow speed offers contradictory advice from the manufacturer, who says NOT to adjust the preload in the owners manual. Seems yellow speed themselves can not get this kit right

when I called Don out on the issues MULTIPLE people were having with yellow speed, he said he would check with the manufacturer for a solution and hasn’t responded. This was weeks ago

I agree, I don’t think stiffer springs are the answer but seems like smartadze has found the perfect spring rates with no bounce issues so surely we should await their expertise

i will say, you’ll see in my screenshots earlier that someone seems to imply they rectified some of the bounce with stiffer springs too. Stiffer springs may be compensating for the wrong shock absorber. Like I said, strutmasters kit is about double the weight/build quality of yellow speed. I’ve weighed both, installed both and driven both first hand. I still stand by my opinion that yellow speed is ok but strutmasters is quite simply the safer and more professional kit for this car when it comes to coilovers

you say you also are not having problems with bounce, I’m not sure we are discussing the same bounce. I don’t mean the suspension constantly has the car bouncing down the road, it’s that when you transverse a large dip in the road, when exiting the dip the car almost seems to want to lift off the ground

what spring rates are you using? Some folks got 14/10kg spring rates with the first iteration of yellow speed, like the cieka kit comes with. I received 20/14kg rates (when I specifically asked for 16/16kg spring rates I think it was, perhaps smartadze can review my posts to make sure I have everything accurate) and im
clearly not the only person having this problem. Seems Pmercury ended with 22/20 kg spring rates when he was finished and still never seemed completely satisfied either?

ctravis595

How very strange! A quick search and within minutes I was able to find I was indeed not the only person to complain of bounce on these forums particularly, but yet even a yellow speed dealer themselves had this same issue....

ctravis595

And here’s where Pmercury also implies he needed aftermarket springs to get a satisfactory experience. Which if I remember correctly, his last posts about yellow speed also expressed discontent

worth mentioning, somewhere on that same thread Pmercury also mentioned the 14kg rear springs were too bouncy

but unanimously everybody who said they used 20/20kg spring rates said the ride was too stiff. I’m unsure how an overly stiff suspension is any “safer” than an overly bouncy suspension.

Like i said, let’s work together and find a solution, an overly stiff mercedes is not very mercedes like at all. And a bouncy suspension isn’t safe. Perhaps you guys are satisfied with always having one of these two problems, I on the other hand experienced the strutmasters kit with the proper shock absorbers for a car of this weight and didn’t have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

Many people seemed satisfied with their yellow speed kit so instead of ordering and modifying another strutmasters kit I went with yellow speed. Seems not everybody is quite as forthcoming with being dissatisfied with parts they installed on their car as I, or perhaps there is a solution I’m overlooking

im just not seeing how sways would rectify EITHER a stiff suspension or one that is too bouncy. BUT from what I’ve researched , adding sway bars can effectively “stiffen” the spring rate of the suspension so perhaps the answer may lie in a rear sway bar, so stiffen the rear more like the 20kg springs, yet utilize some of the “softness” of the 14kg springs ... most people said to forego the rear sways but it may be worth trying

I’m just not sure the answer to a bouncy suspension is to make it overly stiff, especially in a flagship model mercedes....

BayArchitect

I've read most of the hydraulic conversion comments on this forum, and I've done this work on two of my personal CL600's. Many of the "mechanics" on the forum expect to bolt in the coilovers in older cars without changing all the rubber suspension bits and without installing sway bars. They seek good handling without the associated maintenance cost of hydraulics, and without spending money to set up the new suspension properly. If you simply bolt in a set of coilovers without doing the rest of the required work, handling will be unsatisfactory--regardless of spring rate. The existing hydraulic suspension is already a coilover type. However, the hydraulics in the system replace (act in place of) sway bars. The hydraulics ARE the sway bars. If you remove the hydraulics and install Yellow Speeds or Strutmasters coilovers you remove the sway bars. They must be replaced with steel torsion (sway) bars, or handling will suffer. You can't effectively compensate for body roll by stiffening up the springs, as suggested by the salesmen at Strutmasters. Fortunately, the CL's have everything in place to bolt in a set of sway bars. Do not purchase used set of sway bars on Ebay, thinking they will work. These bars usually have the bushings worn out, and the bushings can't be replaced because they are vulcanized onto the bar, and because MBZ doesn't sell them. You can purchase new split front bar bushings on Ebay, but the quality is unknown--they are made in Asia--and they are not vulcanized. Rear bar bushings are unobtainium. The cost of new sway bars is cheap, so you don't have to be.

BayArchitect

If you intend to purchase the ABC module from Strutmasters, do not call them--just order it online, and there shouldn't be a problem. Yes--the price is rediculous, but the options are few.

ctravis595

this still doesn’t really answer my question, I’m looking to gather information from those who have no complaints with yellow speed about their particular setup

one reason I ask is that v12 owners were often sent different spring rates than v8 owners.

And to answer your indirect question, yes I’ve just replaced control arms/camber arms etc. the only two suspension components due for maintenance are the front upper control arms and my rear subframe bushings are showing early signs of aging. Nothing critical, my front wheels do not move freely because of the upper control arms and my rear does not shimmy, bang or bounce with the subframe bushings that are due for service here soon. At least I had no issues with strutmasters setup with these same aged subframe bushings. I’m sure someone will try to read between the lines here and claim my subframe bushings are to blame hence why I bring up strutmasters again

i also installed the cieka kit (same kit really) on someone’s low mileage CL and he had the same bounce I noticed

the white abc error doesn’t bother me too much really, but I love working on my car so it’d be a fun Sunday project if someone knew how to replicate the system Diy

worth noting, even before this newest partition of conversation I was considering adding rear sway bars when I do my subframe bushings. Like I mentioned, my issue with this kit isn’t the body roll, it’s the bounce at high speeds. The more we review these conversations it’s becoming clearer to me most of those who do not have “safety concerns” with yellow speed like me, were not incorrectly shipped 14kg rear springs like I was. And they are running 20kg rear spring rates for example, some with sway bars some without so I’m really trying to understand how sway bars is gonna rectify this situation I’m having. I also don’t want an overly stiff mercedes but I guess that’s better than an unsafe suspension

and trust me, I’ve heard all the conversations about sways and w215 coilovers. I was the first to document trying coilovers on w215 and many people said it wouldn’t work, would be unsafe, that I was crazy etc but I think most of those people sold their CL most likely to avoid keeping up with abc maintenance and replacement. And here I am years later with the same CL on a new kit

so again, If we could compare settings and spring rates I’d appreciate it

ctravis595

also worth noting, strutmasters isn’t the most trustworthy company . They offered a lifetime warranty on my coilovers, then changed the story and claimed it was just a one year warranty ...

pmercury

iTrader: (2)

strutmasters = for old people
yellow speed = good quality for it's price, but my new W215 Supercharged 1200hp CL65 will get custom made
anyway, a "real good" set should cost around 6000$ so be happy with less good but good for 6 x less money

My ride is stiff with 20KG but but you should not go under 16KG in any case
THIS IS FOR V12 ONLY !
V8 should go for less

but it's your car after all

I am not online because I have lots of work and a car to build

BayArchitect

Hi PM: Have you tried these?

pmercury

iTrader: (2)

What do you mean tried these ?
I have replaced mine yes

ctravis595

I guess that’s a good point about price/quality. I see $600 ebay coilovers oftentimes for other cars, so I figured these would be a bit better

but when you consider everything for Mercedes has a special price tag, I guess these really are the eBay coilovers of the Mercedes world

im going to try the 16kg rear sprigs I demanded they send me, not only because of what you guys have mentioned about no-bounce but also because I have noticed my rear springs are compressing 100% and show signs of the coils rubbing on each other.

The 14kg is clearly unsuitable for either these cars, or my driving style?

In regards to those thrust arms, I’ve also replaced those with aftermarket eBay parts. Build quality looks identical to my OEM, perhaps the rubbers will fail sooner than OEM but that’s to be expected

BayArchitect

These custom thrust arms by Syncro Design reduce lateral movement of the front rims around corners. They are no stock and they don't appear stock. I purchased them for my CL600. Not cheap, but remarkable. See video:
LS

ctravis595

do you know what spring rates you are using that you’re satisfied with?

Anyways, today I switched over from 14kg/mm “progressive rate” rear springs (highly unlikely to actually be progressive rate springs) to the much smaller 16kg/mm rate springs that yellow speed claims are their “linear springs”

See the picture below, you’ll see why I was largely hesitant to use these 16kg springs, not only is the diameter of the coil smaller, but the overall height of the coil is almost half the size. I thought surely these springs weren’t suitable for such a heavy car... even if they were a stiffer spring rate than my original 14kg/mm rear springs

yellow speed Europe said in an email my 14kg/mm springs were “progressive spring rate”, as you can tell by the photo, it’s hard to confuse both of these springs as anything but linear rate springs. Im really not sure why they weren’t more sure of what products they offer

I originally asked yellow speed to send 16kg front and 16kg rear springs, they said “ok” and instead they sent me 20/14kg kit. I told them I was not satisfied and eventually they sent me one pair of 16kg springs to try for the rear

the last few months these springs have sat on the shelf, however I realizdd after installing the cieka kit on someone’s car that the springs that come with the cieka kit are very similar to these smaller/shorter/stiffer 16kg springs I was sent by yellow speed

so tomorrow I will try them out as I have some driving to do

pmercury

iTrader: (2)

very nice !
exactly the problem I have !
I buy them tomorrow !

pmercury

iTrader: (2)

what is the right model number for CL V12's ?

ctravis595

Here’s interesting testimony from someone who not only upgraded to 20/20kg spring rates, but says they seemed to experience more bounce after adding stiffer springs.

I stand by my opinion, yellow speed may have more options for adjustment but frankly it’s an unsafe kit compared to strutmasters

I haven’t had tons of hours driving my new 16kg rear springs yet, my first impressions seem to be that the bounce is worse around 30-45 mph, but better at higher speeds

i think we can argue semantics all day but video proof of someone with yellow speed transversing severe road dips without a “launching bounce” of the rear end is the only way to disprove the multiple people complaining about the yellow speed kit

until then I’ll continue to recommend strutmasters (unfortunately) while also recommending sway bars to counter act the body roll that is experienced with strutmasters

i just find it largely irresponsible to give this kit passing reviews when the type of “bounce” involved with the yellowspeed kit seems fairly hazardous, especially in the high speed emergency manevour situation

for those unaware, the spring rates are the last two numbers printed on your yellow speed springs

BayArchitect

20k Front; 16k Rear.
16 clicks from soft Front; 14 clicks from soft rear.
This with front and rear sway bars, as recommended by Yellow Speed.
If you don't have sway bars these numbers are meaningless.
You can't compensate for roll by changing or adjusting springs.
Springs are a coiled torsion bar, which provide vertical support between the vehicle and the road, and they cushion the vehicle from vertical irregularities in the road.
Anti-sway bars (another torsion bar) attach to the vehicle in a manner that resists roll. Same principle, but different function--and not interchangeable.
The springs, bars, and adjustments you need will be determined by where and how you drive.
I drive modestly--except when bitten by the hair when I'm in the mountains (every day).
LS

ctravis595

Thanks, interestingly enough yesterday I re visited a small wavy bridge in my old city that I used to test the “bounce” on this system, AFTER installing 16kg rear springs and with 3 clicks from hard dampening settings, the bounce was undeniably better. I transversed this same bridge later but with settings closer to what you mention, about 9 clicks from hard, and the bounce was back

I wonder if you have the full size 16kg rear springs or if you got the smaller 16kg springs I just installed. See my picture above as per the difference between springs

lastly, I think I’ve said this numerous times but my issue is not with body roll. I drove strutmasters for years and that kit actually does have excess body roll without sways, yellow speed isn’t as bad, it’s much firmer and “sportier”. If I had some mountain roads I’d surely be quicker to install sways but they are an after thought as my main concern is a safety concern with this “bounce”.

my “bounce” count must be up to about 80 now!

BayArchitect

If I understand you correctly, you removed your sway bars (in your case, the hydraulic system), and you left only springs and shocks. It's no wonder you (and others) are "bouncing" down the road. No adjustment of the shocks will help you. The comparison between a car with sway bars and yours is apples-and-oranges. You removed roughly half the control of your car and you are trying to compensate for the loss by tweaking a completely different system (springs and shocks). I've fiddled with springs and shocks for decades on my motorcycles and my cars. The different ratio of sprung-to-unsprung weight exaggerates any change you make to the suspension of a bike. For example, no experienced motorcyclist would install so-called "progressive" springs in their forks. Of course a motorcycle has no need for sway bars. However, your 4-wheel system needs a control for roll, because lean can be mean. Install stock sway bars, then dial in your springs and shocks. Notice what Mercedes did after they experimented with hydraulic suspension. Your CL is an S-Class with a shortened wheel base. The idea of a hydraulic system to manage roll, pitch and yaw might be good, but maintenance was financially untenable. Fortunately, S-Class components bolt right in.
Regards,
LS

BayArchitect

Here is some information that might be helpful for swapping out your tandem pump for a dedicated steering-only pump:
It turns out the non-tandum pumps are identical for all Mercedes between about 1999 and 2006. The steering-only pumps pump at the same rate as the tandum pump. The only difference is the CL's have a 7-groove pulley. The S-Class has a 6 groove pulley. The 7-groove pulley on a tandum pump cannot be mounted on the steering-only pumps because they have a different connection to the pump. However, a 7-groove pulley can be purchased seperately (aftermarket) or you can buy an inexpensive pump for any Mercedes Sprinter from the same era (readily available on Ebay). The 7-groove Sprinter pulley is the same interior diameter as the S-Class 6-groove pulley. It can be easily removed and pressed onto the S-Class pump. I purchased several pumps from different models, and different sources, just to make sure—and I removed and mounted the 7-groove pulley on them all.
To mount the pump onto the motor, purchase three unthreaded spacers from McMaster-Carr: You can purchase 18-8 Stainless Steel, or aluminum: 3/4" o.d., 1-3/8" long, for 5/16" screw size. These translate nicely into metric size, and they will align the pulley and belt perfectly onto your CL600 without modification (mine are 2002 models). In my opinion, 3 spacers are sufficient to hold the pump in place, because you are now using only one pump instead of two--but the original tandum pump has 4 mounting points. If you feel the need to connect all four, you can easily make a simple custom spacer from a block of T6061 for the offset threaded holes on the driver's side of the pump.
FCPEuro sells a new LUK (OEM) pump, warranted for life. I recommend it. One of the differences between LUK German-made pumps and the Chinese pumps is that the German pump reservoir nipple is pressed in with a metal sleeve--and it can be rotated to a suitable position for mounting the reservoir line. All the Chinese pumps I purchased on Ebay have the connector glued into the pump with a PVC sleeve, so it cannot be rotated--which forces the reservoir line into a convoluted route.
I'm not much of a blogger, so if this information should be posted elsewhere, someone please help with that.
LS

ctravis595

not sure if this is directed at me, but fwiw was one of the first to discover and implement this trick years ago

Edit: I think this nice little write-up glosses over whether or not the bracket arm that used to be behind the tandem pump is still used on the new power steering-only pump. As it seems to fit but just barely doesn’t reach 100%. I have tried both ways, with and without the bracket arm with no problems FWIW

ctravis595

we are really beating a dead horse here. About a 5/6 year horse at that. You say you’ve read all the comments on these forums regarding the sway bar conversion, so you’d have noticed I was the first to document trying coilovers on a w215 besides perhaps strutmasters company themselves, and we all know how “forthcoming” businesses can be when trying to sell a largely untested system. Of course they will say it’s works, it was up to the DIY community to give honest reviews

lots of people said the lack of sway bars on a w215 coilover car was absurdly and disastrous. I kept this in mind while doing the strutmasters conversion, and held onto my old struts etc in case I needed to switch back

after doing the strutmasters conversion (as it seems you’ve read? Maybe not) I reported that the ride quality was surprisingly nice, the strutmasters pieces were beefy, high quality coilovers and that I was largely satisfied with my conversion. And did not plan on switching back to abc as it kinda seemed like a safety hazard to have an unreliable suspension on the car

the only two issues anybody ever had with strutmasters were that some people experienced a higher body height than they preferred(unchangeable because the kit was not adjustable) and some people complained a tad about body roll if they had large rims(20’s for example) because this could introduce some scrubbing in very tight turns

never, and let me reiterate this for the 20th time in the past 5/6 years, did the strutmasters kit feel dangerous or unstable even WITHOUT sway bars (hey perhaps smartadze is keeping track of how many times I’ve said strutmasters or sway bars?!?please update if so).

Like mentioned before I’m in Florida where we don’t have many mountain roads, we do however have many bridges with expansion gaps that can create “dips” in the road surface before and after the bridge

so forgive me for quickly understanding this matter of sway bars or not has literally nothing to do with any issue of “bounce” because quite frankly I’ve driven a properly equipped coilover w215, and it quickly becomes clear the yellow speed struts just aren’t cutting it with such a heavy car.

I never once had any of these issues with bounce etc with strutmasters and that was even 5 years later when one of the struts started leaking

strutmasters was a very smooth and stable ride. I could see myself being bothered by the body roll with strutmasters IF I had lots of mountain roads but I do not. Strutmasters kept the feel of an expensive mercedes and not a quirky corvette, like how I feel about yellow speed. Sure the body roll was annoying for some but they should have looked into sway bar retrofits themselves. I never needed it

The yellow speed kit is stiffer and the minor issues with body roll are improved with this stiffer kit. However like I mentioned, body roll was never my big issue with any of these kits.

it sounds like you’ve invested a lot of time and work into replacing all of the suspension components on your car... Perhaps not admitting to the bounce effect nearly everybody besides smartadze and Bayarchitect are experiencing with this kit lends itself to a matter of pride? I’m really not sure, but if you have videos of your w215 yellow speed transversing large road dips without any adverse “bounce/launch” id be glad to entertain the fact I am missing something.

Even the yellow speed distributor in Florida complained about the bounce problem. Never once have I heard of anybody rectifying “bounce” issues with sway bars on any car, let alone w215

sorry if I sound argumentative... I just find it largely irresponsible to give this frankly unsafe suspension a passing review knowing some 17 year old is gonna slap on one of these kits and hurt themselves because they got their hands on a cl55k or v12 they couldn’t handle. I only recommend yellow speed for experienced drivers who understand what they are getting themselves into. There’s more at stake than your pride here guys, in the coming years many people will visit these threads to make their decision on these matters and so far I’ve found way more people having issues rather than not

ctravis595

Maybe worth mentioning, for those who try to read between the lines of my posts or neglect to read my posts in general. I am not a spokesperson or in any way affiliated with strutmasters

ive also had plenty of issues with strutmasters as a company, but not so much their coilover kit besides the ugly ride height. They were supposed to include brass caps to cap off the hydraulic lines and they never sent them. They were supposed to have a lifetime warranty and that quickly changed to a “one year warranty” which is really annoying. Perhaps I would’ve still ordered a new strutmasters kit, trimmed the springs to address ride height problems, added sways to satisfy any body roll and been on my way. But not everybody is very forthcoming on these matters it seems and yellow speed is unsafe in my opinion 🤷*♂️

pmercury

iTrader: (2)

BayArchitect

about your
thrust arms by Syncro Design

WHAT IS THE REF of those you bought