cjf_moraga

Good choice! Yep... the best thing about the V12 600 is the torque, followed by the torque, followed by the... well you know... If you are worried about 100K just get an extended warranty - the additional c $4K is not much extra compared with what you are going to pay! And you get some exclusivity also... there are are far more AMG's around than there are 600's! (I hardly ever see any and thats in the Bay area)

Chris (Currently on business in Europe surrounded by S320 CDI's)

WSH

cjf, my condolences on your having to travel to EU (did extensive travel early in my career; now I rarely need/want to ever travel outside CA)....but one really appreciates the car paradise that is CA after a few days away....

Have been hearing rumblings this wk in US dealer network that new V12 may arrive this Summer/Fall to replace 600/65....am digging around my sources in both US and EU to try to learn more (desperately want new '09 AMG V12 CL....have suffered a relapse of my tq addiction).....

If you hear anything interesting in EU re: new V12s, pls share....several guys (markopolo, Dr. No and surely others) on forum are contemplating obtaining '09 CL600/65.....would def appreciate any rumors out there, as we try to connect dots....

Dr. No

Hi CJF...in fact, would you please hop over to the AMG plant as you represent a large group of interested US buyers for AMG V-12 products and I am sure they will spill the beans to you for the upcoming new engine launch! We are dying to know as my order is already in the bank and I'll be really hacked off if my July car has the old engine and my pal WSH gets the new one in August Not that either one is a slouch by any means, but c'mon AMG, give us the new nuclear plant underneath that loooong hood!

cjf_moraga

WSH, Doc... actually I am in Central London right now... but I will be visiting Stuttgart in May! - (Also a good time to check out the MB museum again... which leads through an underground passageway/shop into the biggest MB showroom you have ever seen)

Not had a chance to visit any London dealers yet... (UK new car pricing and exchange rate is simply eye watering) but I am still skeptical that there is a radically new V12 on the way in the very new future... I still suspect the rumor mill is creating wishful thinking... Certainly the V12 in the new 2009 SL65 looks the same unit we all know and love...

http://www.emercedesbenz.com/Mar08/1..._SL65_AMG.html

Surely of all MB models, this would be one to wait for a new V12 if available in the 2009/10 time frame? ...the CL is also still fairly new for a mid-life engine upgrade... From a product management and production accountancy POV, I just don't see what competitive or other market pressure there is on MB to go to the expense of launching and certifying a brand new V12 right now.. The current unit has more torque and HP than any competitor now or foreseen.. it can't get much smoother... it is also stable from a manufacturing and QA POV - important to Mercedes reputation at present. Also hard to see how any V12 can be made significantly more economical... emissions could be improved perhaps - but that was meant to be a selling point of the existing 3 valve/twin spark design... A new 4 valve NA design may make those of us here feel warm and fuzzy, but do most buyers really care? Any new V12 would likely go the NA route, and (like the 6.2 V8) lose the low RPM torque that is such a powerful selling feature of the current unit...

I still strongly suspect that any rumblings of a "new" V12 are more likely mild warm overs to the current unit.. a few extra HP perhaps... It is not unusual for high-end engines to have longer longevity than lower down the market where the competitive pressure is more sustained... Happy to be proved wrong though!

Chris (The skeptic)

(Lots of 320 CDI chauffeurs watching television on their COMMAND system displays while parked here - wish we had a TV-tuner in the US!)

absent

[QUOTE=cjf_moraga;2735671Certainly the V12 in the new 2009 SL65 looks the same unit we all know and love...

[url]http://www.emercedesbenz.com/Mar08/10_001069_The_New_Generation_2009_Mercedes_Benz_SL _Class_SL65_AMG.html[/url]

...the CL is also still fairly new for a mid-life engine upgrade... From a product management and production accountancy POV, I just don't see what competitive or other market pressure there is on MB to go to the expense of launching and certifying a brand new V12 right now.. QUOTE]
MB did it before,changed 600 and AMG engines just 2 years after new CL was introduced (previous gen.).

WSH

cjf, your points are all valid; yes, many of us are admittedly wishful car guys always eager for latest/greatest, tq-rich tech; and my EU pals tell me that political backlash against new V12s in quasi-socialist, eco-communist EU would be worse than in eco-communist Berkeley/SF/PaloAlto (though I love that so many guys in Woodside use new S65s as their kid-hauler; S63s are clearly tq-deprived, and SUVs/wagons are so tacky and unsafe anyway)......

My guess is this all has something to do w/motor of SL Blk coming this Fall....hints of 650hp; surely won't just use MCT in SL63, but MCT supposedly is limited to ?525lb-ft; need for a lightwt motor over nose of a track-oriented car; head of AMG engine devpmt has publicly expressed his preference for NA motors (IIRC, he had engineered CarreraGT motor when he left AMG for Porsche for a few yrs)....connecting these rumors gets me to a new NA, lightwt V12....

And, as absent points out correctly, MB has a history of intro'g signif new engine changes assymetrically vs major body/tech platform changes....in fact, would argue that, aside from MCT (a seemingly signif gearbox advance), SL63 is disappointingly old-tech w/much 6yo body/chassis/interior engineering that will persist for another 3yrs.....but I wouldn't be surprised if MCT is intro'd in '09 S/CL63....doubt MB will not seek to amortize MCT R&D costs over as many units as poss....

BTW, careful what you wish for re: TV tuners in cars....I'm still lamenting the fact that cell phone talk time and email/texting rates have become near-free for consumers....last time I was in Manhattan, I was near-apoplectic re: how difficult it is to get an S550 car svc (I don't like to be in those POS LincTownCars w/exploding fuel tanks)....and the fact that drivers in US these days casually will look at their Blkberry/take cell calls, etc while driving (even on fwy).....I suppose they don't hand out driver jobs to just anyone....but, as a captive passenger, wouldn't want negative Darwinism of these drivers to affect my health/safety....so refreshing to be back in CA where one can easily self-drive new S/CL everywhere....the limo-dependent culture of NYC/Lond sucks....

In any case, suspect some interesting stuff is in the pipeline, w/details to start to leak over next few wks...

Safe travels...

WSH

Some updates...

Now have about 6 different colleagues across SF/BH/NYC/Greenwich/Lond also asking around about new AMG V12....lots of interest among guys who've each had 65s in past and/or currently....

cjf, you raised an excellent point about the poss tq implics of any NA V12....may prove less dramatic in tq deliv than 65....but my question would be whether any new-tech V12 motor/gearbox/chassis set-up will offer better tq/traction balance than 65 on real-world CA roads....

One point that this group of jaded AMG consumers contests is notion that 65 motor is robust....obviously not statistically valid, but anecdotally almost everyone in this group has had a new 65 bought back under lemon laws for motor-specific reasons......sometimes occurring within first 250 mis of use; other times after 8K mis of flawless use; one guy gets a new 65 every yr and reports one '05 CL65 was flawless in 10K mis of use, yet his '06 CL65 was a disaster from start.....very strange pattern....my anecdotal sense is 65 motor is fragile vs 63 motor, esp after chatting w/this group, who each own at least one copy of CL63 030....

From a mkts standpoint, not clear why MB has both 600 and 65 motor....perhaps 65 has reliability issues....600 certainly has ageism issues (e.g., one of my elder colleagues who is 60yo refuses to be seen in any 600...he views it as a codgermobile for >>70yo guys; he only drives AMGs)....perhaps some cost/marketing advantages to consolidating a new-tech V12 offering into an AMG-only platform....most of today's <70yo buyers seem to want the cooler, more youthful body kit/wheels/exhausts/monster brakes, etc....

Did a 20mi test drive of a new CL65 today AM to refresh my memory re: 65s....my last 65 was an '07 SL65 which had awful tq/trac balance on even dry, imperfect pavement CA fwys....I was pleasantly surprised that this CL65 (<100mis, Yoko tires) I drove had relatively excellent traction, despite aggressive throttle application on uneven fwy surfaces (dry, 55F)....

My suspicion is 65's tq/trac balance really varies by specific chassis....several colleagues who have/had SL65 agree it has poor real-world balance; but one colleague who had '06 S65 remarks that he was pleased w/its trac, but was disappointed w/trac of his '07 S65 (he now drives CL63 030)....last Fall, we all passed on '08 CL65 (though many of us had ordered a copy), as we each couldn't bring ourselves to really test-drive a copy....as we were too nauseated by the clunky non-030 wheels and the tacky, codgerly quilted leather.....

Will pass along any datapoints/rumors I gather re: new V12 over next few days....

Dr. No

I REALLY hope they (MBUSA-AMG) see the light and make the 030 wheels STANDARD on the CL65....it just kills me that to have the proper look I've got to order another set of wheels for $10K when THAT'S how the car SHOULD come to the US to begin with...

ARE YOU LISTENING, AMG????

I can close my eyes to the codgerly quilting (WSH ) I guess, IF you get the wheels right!

Can you tell I'm on CALL tonight??

Have a great weekend gang and drive carefully! (I didn't say slowly).

D

cjf_moraga

WSH - take a look at this thread on the E55 (211) forum... Also this 650hp engine rumor may well not be a new V12 but the V8 TT... This is the engine I think has been code named "Hammer 1 + 2" (like AMG's of old) in a previous interview.

https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/237309-horsepower-wars-nearly-over.html

It is kind of logical to bring it into the SL first... I would also assume a TT version of the V8 architecture is more economical/deployable over a wider range of models than any new V12... I will sure miss the V12 perfect balance and smoothness though, so enjoy the current S65 while it lasts.... Even Zimmerman here says it will be the last...

Chris

Red Marko

Chris, stay away from Soho distr.
4k. to sleep well, over the standard cover, it's really a no brainer .Thanks to point this out to me. More and more I'm missing the obvious (and I'm only 49 )
Yes, you are right haven't seen CL600 yet, East Coast that is.

WSH

Thx for pointing that out, cjf...

Def is a logical poss scenario, but what I still don't get is how MCT would be compatible w/tq of a 63TT motor.....

BTW, just heard a vague rumor that '09 SL65 is not being brought to US....makes little sense to me, esp as US buys some 60-70% of world's 65s....am looking into this rumor....all new 65 builds are apparently by appt-only; trying to ascertain if any '09 65 builds are even available.....

Red Marko

Maybe I should take the old approach: don't fix whatever it's not broken.
Maybe I should not wish for a brand new V12. Taking under consideration the obvious. So what that it is an old 3 v. design. (Read = torque). Certainly, new V12 (if any) would have few more HP but.... less torque (shoot, I'm repeating myself).
Let's not forget uncharted correlations between engine, chasis, gearbox, steering and repairs(problems).
I most likely will grab famous, old, torque spitting (repeat again), smooth as you know what, V12. While it lasts. Time wise of course.

WSH

Prob shrewd thinking....

Ask around about how reliable is current-gen 600 motor; anecdotally, have my doubts re: 65 motor's reliability but don't know if 600 is better...

Given how well MB has managed all the innovative tech in today's S/CL ....even early MY07 copies seem to have outstanding reliability....I'm not too worried about reliability of future MB tech, though this MCT box could be an important stress test for smoothness/reliability/durability of clutches vs hills, etc....

WSH

cjf, the article you pointed out is very helpful...and reminds me of how the eco-politics in EU are different from US (even SF)....part of why I enjoy talking to savvy colleagues in London is that they often remind me how culturally divergent US and London (an economic suburb of the Manhattan financial industry and a playground for all kinds of 3rdWorld money) are from Germany and rest of EU....and internal struggles/jealousies of EU, as much of its conspicuous consumption is now derived from Russ/Indian/Mideast/Chinese wealth that maintain wkend homes in Lond and Continent....

Ironically, Germany builds these 65s largely for US consumption....w/a few other 65s bought by plutocrats in London...and in Mideast....consumers who scoff at all this eco-nonsense, primarily spewed by those who use mass transit or drive econoboxes and have issues w/wealth disparities....

Would be curious what are R&D costs of a new V12 motor platform (my sense is R&D costs of many engineering projects have dropped signif in recent yrs b/c of advances in virtualization software, outsourcing to Indian R&D ctrs for some grunt R&D, etc).....and how many 600/65s are sold/yr globally (recall that Bentley basically ate AMG's lunch in US mkt by selling more $200K 12 cyl cars/yr than does MB....inferior VW engineering for sure, but clearly superior marketing)....

Part of global wealth creation boom includes fact that most newly-minted plutocrats want a V12-powered MB limo; most of these guys are old-school guys, not the hypocritical clowns we have in CA who drive a Prius to their private plane....and, even if they can't effectively use such cars in 3rdWorld, they want copies at their London/BevHills house, even if just for <40MPH urban driving and idling outside their favorite dinner spots....

Thus, I remain optimistic about a new V12, but def appreciate the balanced arguments against any new V12 amidst current EU eco-politics....

Red Marko

OK,
I'll take it back, you are right, especially after Chrysler drop/fiasco.
But most likely, new V12 (if any) will loose some ...you know what.

WSH

You guys are right....hard to replicate 600+-740lb-ft.....really enjoyed my CL65 test-drive yest....

Need at least 525lb-ft to even be relevant IMO....

BTW, my dealer just confirmed '09 SL65 is orderable....

Def intriguing times....will be a difficult choice amongst some great cars....

cjf_moraga

Actually I worked for a time in Soho in the 1980's... interesting combination of film/video production (my line of work) sex and food... Hardly Amsterdam naughty though... but definitely one of the most varied/eclectic restaurant districts in Europe...

Back onto the 600, yes, that $4K will buy you a full 7 years and 100,000 miles.... You can't do any better than the 600 until the next MB model cycle... (Unless Bentley is your thing - not me) I will probably get a CL myself at that point as my kids will have likely left home then... observing the "never buy the 1st year of a new model" rule, 7 years should about do it!

Chris

Red Marko

I see some hard decisions/sleepless nights ahead of you... ?
And some other members ?

cjf_moraga

So true WSH... The "standard" S-Class in London definitely seems the 320 CDI... They are pretty common... Lots with drivers waiting with one eye on the parking ****'s... (Far, far worse than SF - and of course you have to pay to even drive into central London) Did not see one 500 (US 550) let alone a 600...

Actually designing and engineering a new V12 is one thing... and yes CAD and virtual prototyping can help... but I believe that just as much (or more) effort is certifying the engine to projected emissions, mpg, and other standards in each market it is sold... then of course the service technical infrastructure has to support new parts and maintenance training in the field etc, etc...

Also the future of Maybach must be a major factor associated with any new V12... No new Maybach (as appears) means that the S/CL/SL will have to assume 100% of the overhead... Perhaps there will be a "super S-Class" to replace both the current V12 S/CL Class and Maybach in one combined model.. (Much more sensible - like the original 1960's 600's) But if this is the direction, (we would have surely heard about if for the MY09/10 period by now) I would expect it to be the next model cycle post 2012/13... and it will probably be more expensive...

I am still speculating that Maybach will be canned, and that the top-range S/CL's will go back to new generation V8's - turbo charged or not. (As they used to be in the 1980's) That scenario seems to fit the rumors and leaks from MB/AMG... and seems most logically consistent (and sellable) from an economic and political/marketing POV... Sunday speculation...

Chris

WSH

cjf, I'd be curious what the profitability of V12 cars is for MB....suspect margins are rather rich (vaguely recall S-Class, though only some 10% of MB unit sales, is some 40% of oper profit of entire MB Car Group...and vast majority of S-Classes are lower-margin <12 cyls)....

Suspect VW may be a prod for MB to advance its V12s....seems like Bent has made quite an in-roads into mass volume sales of $200K cars, w/hefty mkt share in this highly profitable category....agree w/you; am not at all a fan of Bent tech/dynamics/aesthetics, etc....but nevertheless it's a major mkt competitor for MB V12s....

And would guess our friends in 3rdWorld will be a major source of growth in demand for V12s....wouldn't underestimate brand power/ego value of stuff like V12s, 1st-growth Bordeaux, Pateks, etc, esp for new money seeking validation....

Sure, guys like us appreciate the refined, effortless delivery of hp/tq that only an MB V12 offers, but on numerous occasions, random non-car people have stopped to ask if my car has a V12....it certainly represents significant mystique to the masses....

bigbizusa

CL63...will hold the value better

MBZFAN55

Does anyone have any current Manheim highline numbers on 07/08 CL63's and CL600's ?

WSH

I believe someone posted recent auction values for both CL63 and S63 a few wks back on the respective AMG sub-forums...IIRC, values were remarkably robust, esp given the recessionary economy and tepid demand for new S/CL63s....

Have had a couple of SF colleagues trade-in their CL63 030s in past few mths (for new copies of same...guys who just algorithmically replace any car every 6mos), and they received far better trade-in values than I would have predicted....our dealer (we all seem to favor same dealer and salesman) says 030s w/cf and all options are often not readily available in major mkts, new or used.....

Dr. No

Not for me! CL 65 all the way!!

Just close your eyes and remember that feeling of TORQUE as you push that throttle to the floor...ok, back off now with that wheelspin..crusing down the HWY, silky smooth performance all day long.

Get them while you can...whether you enjoy it for 1-2 years or keep it in your car museum for life...how can you not love how it FEELS?

Remember, life is short, very short and you don't want to be in your final days saying "I could have had a V-12!!"

D.

WSH

Well said, Doctor

Last nt, a colleague drove me to a dinner in his 599.....a <2mi journey through hilly SF streets...

Been a while since I've been in a 599....esp after a wkend spent driving CL65 and CL63 030, what a POS....feels like a tin box w/herky-jerky movements w/F1 gearbox, even in moderate, <35MPH urban driving....and all kinds of tacky, cheap-looking Fiat buttons/switches....all V12s clearly aren't created equal....

We arrived at restaurant...and parked in front is a CL63 030 of one of our colleagues...a jaded car nut who also owns a 599 that he rarely drives...and is also on list at our dealer for new '09 AMG V12 CL....a mere 8 cyl motor is just too eco-friendly and underpowered for this SF crowd...

Interestingly, my 599-driving colleague (who provided me a "taxi ride" to dinner; 599 is about as unsafe as a CrownVic, isn't it???) gets a latest/greatest, new AMG and Ferrari every 6 mths and rarely drives his 599....he drives his CL63 030 90%+ of time....and is one spot ahead of me on list at our dealer to get new, '09 AMG V12 CL.....seems like jaded guys generally appreciate refined deliv of hp/tq and know AMG V12s (esp in high-tech, super-safe CL platform) are more addictive than anyone else's V12s....