Red Marko

Hi guys, I need your opinion on possible upgrade to the above models, My current one is 2008 CL550. You may ask why ? I feel that the car and the driving experience would benefit from little more push. Not, that CL550 is underpowered, but…it's in human nature to want more I guess.
And I'm not talking top speed here, where would I achieve it other than on the closed road. What I'm talking here is the torque, instant power available to you when you want to pass somebody. Those microseconds of adrenaline rush (known to all of you).

CL63 AMG - Big brakes, AMG engine, body styling (which I didn't care for before but I have to admit, that it grew in me a lot) and suspension

CL600 - one BIG advantage. V12 engine, that I'm reading is best built V12 to date. Better than Ferrari, Bentley, Audi, Rolls, etc. And of course very lush torque available at pretty low rpms.

Audi R8 - totally different animal. I just love the looks of the car, (can't test drive it) read good reviews, but I'm bit concerned about the safety compared to S/CL class. I once read good analysis by WSH about how much we expose ourselves to uncontrollable events in everyday commuting.

Your thoughts (any) would be most welcomed.

cjf_moraga

If it is torque and that "kick you back in the seat rush" you want, then your choice has to be a CL600... Also seems the AMG styling is/was not that big a deal for you... though I went for an S600, it was testing the CL600 that converted me from going with an S63... which is almost as fast to 60 but does so in more linear (and for me less entertaining) manner... the twin turbo V12 compared to the 550 engine is day and night..

The R8 looks interesting, but I think the CL600 would be a much more comfortable and safer car. (And more elegant if that matters to you)

Chris

jimand7

I wanted an R8 and have driven one as wifes family owns a dealership. awesome! plus al you will be getting the same car as you already have just upgraded. THat is not very fun to me. but if yuo choose the CL go for the 600 over the 63. I did. 600 has a more pwerful engine more elegance. It is not a sporty car so why try to make it one. If you want a sporty car go for the r8.
so hard to compare the r8

WSH

If you haven't had a high-tq V12 before, may want to get 600....easily one of world's best overall cars....tq is very addictive; 600 has notably better brakes than 550....

63 if want a more complete, brilliantly-balanced perf package....sharper steering/chassis/brakes; more charismatic exhaust note; sport seats/sports steering wheel.....but will clearly notice weaker tq vs 600 if doing accel bursts, esp if launching from 80MPH cruise....

R8 I briefly test-drove....IMO, an engineering POS....marginal steering precision; weak brakes; no tq; weak gearbox....and has serious safety unknowns w/fuel tank crashworthiness (all mid-engine cars, except Porsches, seem to have poorly engineered positioning of fuel tank/lines vs hot engine components, leading to safety concerns w/both poss post-crash fires, as well as spontaneous fires....e.g., spilling a few drops of fuel during refueling, etc)......

If interested in a more sporty car, may want to consider SL63 030....I'm getting my copy in ?May....am really intrigued by this MCT box and allegedly sharp chassis....will evaluate....but I doubt I'll keep SL63 030 more than 3-4 mos as I prefer safety of CL....even a retractable hardtop is dubious vs a rigid coupe, esp in a rollover/serious side impact...and SL simply lacks the ample rear crumple zones of CL if one is rear-ended; and lacks such critical stuff like active head restraints, etc, as, aside from MCT, SL is a lot of old-tech that is yrs behind CL.....the level of structural safety, as well as advanced active/passive safety tech systems, in S/CL simply dwarfs that of any car on planet available today at any price....

Just a few thoughts....good luck w/your decision process....

Red Marko

Both of you cjf_moraga and jimand7 make very valid points (much appreciated)

CL600 - V12, comfort to the gills, and much more elegant.

R8 - really, a toy. Very good and fantastic toy. And what they say: The difference between man and the boy is the price of his toy". We DO enjoy to have and play with them. Surely not as comfortable and safe/high tech as S/CL but ... the looks just to die for. To the point that I'm affraid, I'll get bored. Almost like high priced hooker (sorry Gov. Spitzer - but I couldn't resist) seen in the movies .
So hard to compare.

Red Marko

Here we go again, your analysis are right to the point.
No, none of my previous cars were blessed with V12. The most I enjoy with daily driving (lots of it) is that burst of torque. Instant gratification. Like you said - very addictive. And this being my only vice, why the heck not.
CL63 on the other hand has that fine tuned... everything. With an exhaust note at the end. If MB could make something between CL600 and CL65 AMG.
R8, I see very few people on the net who drove it and are not that much impressed with it. But I value your opinion. Especially easiness to get firey, pun intended. I guess too new to call it safe.
SL63, 5-6 years ago, I'd say yes for sure, but not after the new CL came out. The car is perfect (almost).

WSH

You're not alone in struggling w/this 63 vs 65/600 debate...

I still struggle w/this choice....every time I find that empty stretch of fast fwy (which is quite often on SF Peninsula), I miss driving a 65....

My issue is my typical daily commute is <2mis intra-SF; but my fun driving is on wkends in mtn twisties where 63 030 is so much better balanced/playful/aurally interesting than 65.....(and I'm a minimalist, so I hate having more than one car in my garage, despite my car ADD)...

If only I had an 80mi+ daily round-trip SF-SiliconValley commute on my favorite fwy (280), it would be a no-brainer to drive a 65...

cjf, Z356, trumpet and others who have V12s have articulated well the value of effortless tq....there is such a unique elegance to effortless, liquid-smooth perf in conjunction w/class-leading perf/safety tech....and w/all the current eco-nonsense there is a risk that V12 tech won't be a focus of AMG R&D, at least until this eco stuff blows out in a few yrs (recall the early '80s energy gloom&doom BS).....

BTW, may want to carefully price lease terms of new, '08 CL65 vs new, '08 CL600....seems like CL65s are being deep disctd at some dealers...the 600 vs 65 cost delta may be less than a nominal MSRP comparo would predict....

cjf_moraga

Asking the obvious, have you test driven the CL63 back to back with the CL600? I only had to put my foot on the gas in a CL600 to know in 5 seconds that this was the engine for me.. (A more civilized version of the "hang on to the steering wheel for dear life" qualities of my old E55) The torque is addictive.. WSH also makes a good point about V12 acceleration bursts launched from 60-80 mph cruise... When overtaking you have to start pulling out to make sure you have clear space ahead first, then put your foot down in that order... otherwise you risk ramming straight into the vehicle in front... it is that accelerative... Only the CL65 is better...

It is brute force torque to be sure... but its a trip every time...!

Chris

Red Marko

Yes, I did, about a month apart. The CL600 being the latter one. At that time the dealer allowed me do drive somebody elses CL600 right before the delivery.
#1, he was scared shi...s driving about 4:00 pm. on crowded NJ Rte 22.
#2, I didn't have the heart to push it hard (knowing it's already sold), so I was very gentle. Overly so, that I didn't see the point (at that time) to go for it. Ended up with CL550.
It almost sounds like a punishment Of course, it is not.

WSH

Markopolo, I suspect vast majority of CL owners drive on relatively straight-line roads (even in urban CA) vast majority of time....and tq is best appreciated on a moderately busy, fast-flowing fwy, esp btwn clumps of traffic....

I lived/worked in Manhattan for several yrs before moving to SF; back then, I had a CL55 and on wkends would scour the NYC region for interesting roads....would observe that NYC region's fwys generally are ?20MPH+ slower than fwys around SF/LA; w/incredibly annoying speed enfcmt patterns....but I do recall several stretches of NJ Tpke, ?287 nr FranklinLks, 684 nr Greenwich that are somewhat CA-like, where one can truly revel in a 600/65....

Don't know what your typical driving routes are like, but would argue that, for primarily straight-line duty, tq, superb brakes/chassis (for any emergent evasive maneuvers), and active/passive safety are key criteria....based upon those criteria, 600/65 are clearly world's best commuter cars.....(and if stuck in traffic, the interior leather finishes of 600/65 are far more elegant and aesthetically pleasing than those of 63)....

Red Marko

Well, I live in PA and drive to NYC 3-4 days a week on I 78, Nice stretch of highway, (about 80 miles each way) but loaded with speed traps. Generally, I know where they are and so far so good - no tickets. I do enjoy the car tremendously, but because I love to drive , I know, I'd benefit from that extra torgue. More and more I think the whole aspect thru, I'm leaning towards CL600. I know CL63 is sexier looking car, but that's not what I'm looking for. I'm affraid that sexiness may ware off and I'll still be left with the same desire - "kick you back in the seat rush" (cjf_moraga)

BTW concidering R8 was a silly idea. They say that is also a commuter's car, but... what was I thinking...

Next step, i have to call my dealer and schedule back to back test drive comparo CL63 vs. CL600 and to push both of them a little bit, just for a piece of mind. I'll take a slow approach this time around.

WSH

Ahhh yes, 78.....I recall some good stretches....I've never bothered w/silly radar detectors (even when in NYC), but view it as part of competent, safe driving to know one's "surroundings", esp on one's routine routes....as you know, the patterns are quite easy to predict and discern.....have yet to be stopped for any alleged traffic violation (though will admit CHP enfcmt is refreshingly reasonable vs any Eastern US speed enfcmt)....

Another consideration....

For 5mos/yr in NYC region, need winter tires/wheels to use these high-tq cars safely (even when dry, at <<45F, grip/braking/steering/handling quickly becomes poor/non-existent on max perf summ tires that AMGs or 600s have)....

Issue w/AMG CLs is that it's not clear to me that any rec'd winter tires/wheels exist that fit around those massive brakes.....

Have a couple of car nut colleagues in Greenwich who struggled w/this issue (and they despise active&passive safety of SUVs and active safety of S550 4Matics)....and they each ultimately chose 600s....can easily find competent winter tires/wheels that work vs 600 brakes, as std wheels are only 18"....

j_belll

CL63!!

trumpet1

I have been in and out of over 40 cars in 18 years (some of which were bought for my lovely wife) but of all the vehicles I've owned, my current 2007 S 600 is the best car I've ever been behind the wheel of. It's the power surge from 0 to ??? that gets you hooked on this car. The engine is just absolutely stunning. I had Renntech bump up the power and tranny to 620HP and 740 ft/lbs and EVERYBODY that gets in my car and experiences it is simply in state of shock and awe. I'm hoping to get down to Miami next month to let Bob tweak it and do a dyno test on it.
The surge seems continuously strong even from 70 to 130+mph.
I have never had the luxury to drive an AMG car of any kind so I can't make a fully knowledgeable suggestion here but I can assure you, the 600 won't be a mistake PERIOD. The only other car that I want would be a brand new S65 AMG where you get the sporty look and I would also Renntech that bad boy too but because of upside down equity, it just isn't in my budget. If it were an all out buy with no equity concerns, the AMG S65 does fit in my garage budget. Hopefully I may can get one in a couple of years but my current 600 is just awesome.
This is the first car that has kept me happy and content. Usually by now I'm loafing around the lot already trying to decide what's next but the S600 W221 is by far the best four door car on the planet IMO. When I get close to the end of the warranty period I will have to make a decision on trading or extending the warranty. We'll see.

Red Marko

Do you want to have a small nuclear plant under the hood ?

JRAMGV8

Those Audi's are nice but I'd take the CL600

Red Marko

I think, I'm turning towards that direction. You see, I'm driving every week about 700 miles. I don't want to set up any records for Audi here , nor I want to be a guinea pig for extended period of driving with/without any R8 issues.
I will call my dealer next week and try to set up back to back (63 vs 600) test drives. One thing for sure. It will be fun.

JRAMGV8

yeah its hard to decide which car. I'm already over my E350 and now I feel like trading it in for E550 or E63. I'm just a HP freak

I hope you get the car you want and good luck

zzboba

If CL 550 is getting kind of boring but CL is your car, I'd recommend the CL 63. Torque of the 600 is sensational, but 63 AMG is much more emotional experience -- the AMG body kit is a must IMHO (and isn't available for 600 from factory), exhaust sound is nice (you will ride with windows down), the interior is great with a touch of sportiness (600 is only available with full leather which includes the wood steering wheel).

R8 is just some marketing hype using archaic parts from the Lambo bin. Car doesn't ride well, engine feels weak-chested.

Have you thought about a 997 Turbo yet?

WSH

zzboba, great to see you on this forum; have always enjoyed your insights on rennteam

997TT is certainly an alternative to consider; if MB didn't exist, I'd choose 997TT.....but had '07 997TT for some 3K mis and IMO, despite its superb steering and PCCB pedal feel (in dry), it's vastly inferior vs CL63/600/65 as a commuter car on several fronts....

997TT suffers from awful turbo lag; its effective tq in urban fwy accel is notably inferior vs 63...chassis damping is poor, so it lacks high-speed precision/stability balance of CLs on bumpy stretches of US urban fwys.....17gall fuel tank and 12MPG means our friend markopolo would almost need to refuel once during each direction of his daily commute....lacks Bluetooth/iPod/sat radio/real-time traffic/TeleAid.....seats lack ventil/massage....trunk is size of glovebox....poor ground clearance means one needs to hear that awful scraping sound as one is leaving fuel stations/urban pkg garages, etc etc....and the exhaust note is about as effeminate as that of any Prius Turbo/Honda.....

After yrs of driving new CLs, I did a 2 yr "sabbatical", only driving various new Porsches/Ferraris.....that expce made me appreciate the engineering of MB more than I ever had in past....obviously, mfrs vary in their R&D productivity over time.....but my sense is today's MB/AMG is engineering the world's most innovative, highest quality/reliability, well-balanced, most daily-enjoyable cars on planet today in these S/CLs.....

Red Marko

Funny thing is, that I did consider Porsche 997 Turbo. Red, rered, rerered all threads/opinions/reviews/pros & cons. Then - test drove the car and a ... little disappointment. Same, as somebody recommends a fantastic restaurant. Great expectations -> actual event(dinner) -> and a conclusion: OVERRATED.
I could almost copy WHS experience: turbolag, body stiffness, bit rough ride over the bumps , seats - no massage function (I use this a lot), missing all the gadgets ("must have" in this century) and the most important to me - ABC suspension.
I my opinion, #1 most underrated/overlooked/unappreciated S/CL feature. And the tank (this one I didn't know about).
This is far away from Porsche bashing, great company,
I just think - to me - CL is... a much better car.
Even the bottom feeder - CL550 (just kidding)

trumpet1

I was looking at a CL550 on the lot just yesterday with everything on it including distronic, AMG package, etc. Very beautiful car.

The MSRP is 119K. How much do you think they will discount that car. The reason I ask is that I saw a 2008 SL550 marked down from $110K to $90K on ebay. Actually several of them at this particular dealership were marked down around $20K.

I guess the CLs are still too new to expect a discount that much. It still makes you realize just how much trunk money is in these cars as they are making a profit even after the $20K drop.

WSH

Really depends upon the dealer's locale and specific model and options....

My sense is CL550s are heavily disctd commodities everywhere...

CL63s are generally heavily disctd....but blk/blk or slvr/blk CL63 030 w/all options and cf is not easy to find on a dealer lot anywhere in US....and dealers in major mkts won't disct those specifically-optioned copies much....

CL600s are generally heavily disctd, even in major mkts...a fairly unloved model....

CL65s are available at ?$20K+ discts in minor mkts...but my dealer on SF Peninsula always keeps a couple copies in stock b/c dealer is near arguably one of world's two wealthiest suburban corridors, where many affluent guys who perhaps might be bored on a Sat PM may be in mood to drive home in a new 65 (despite discts not being material)....and if a 65 isn't in stock, it's a lost sale....but I suspect that price-insensitive dynamic only exists on SF Peninsula/BevHills/Greenwich for a few 65s, esp in today's increasingly fragile economy.....

For ex., I believe a major OC MB dealer has had ?10 new S65s in stock for mths and seems unable to sell into local suburban mkt whose economy has weakened dramatically in recent mths....yet in SF Penin/BH/Greenwich these cars are hard to find (and most buyers apparently don't want stale, test-driven "new" S65s from some distant dealer)....and build allocations are some 3-4 mos from now, even for repeat customers at major dealers.....and any discts will naturally be limited in these major mkts....

TuneTime

if it was me? Easy.....

Get myself a new CL600 (with a sport pack) then ASAP get a RennTech ECU upgrade...

Boom... got myself a Rocket thats near a 65 without paying near 65 price!

CL600 $148,225 msrp
Stock - 512hp/612tq

CL65 $198,325 msrp
Stock - 604hp/738tq

CL600 Renntech
Package 1 - 625hp/745tq $6,400 + 149,000 = $155,400
package 2 - 640hp/775tq $11,600 + 149,000 = $160,600

Its quite simple....

zzboba

Compared to prices in Europe, Mercs are are already heavily discounted -- my CL 500/550's list price in Germany is EUR 140,000 which equals USD 220,000 at the current weak USD exchange rate.


BTW -- Thanks for the warm welcome, WSH!