gobiz

AMG2GO, thanks for the dyno graph you sent me. Now this is a totally different graph compared to Piko6's. (I'm assuming the dyno shows HP at the crank).

It does show less power at higher rpms. And the baseline power as well as the upgraded power are at rather low numbers. The baseline HP is 579 which is rather disappointing considering Veritas' CL65 and Piko6's SL65 managed approx. 640Bhp. Also the general concensus regarding AMG engines is that AMG usually understates the Bhp numbers.

However, you did mention that it was taken at altitude. Anyway, there's quite a few factors that can determine dyno readings eg. ambient temp., altitude etc etc. so I'll just take the numbers at face value.

I'm hoping to see a lot more of these dynos, rather interesting material

gobiz

James, my guess is the same as what AMG2GO said before, MB makes cars with 99.9% reliability, AMG elevates performance but compromises reliability to 98% while Kleemann pushes the envelope further but gambles with 95% reliability.

James L.

Gobiz, yes I realise that but i believe it makes more sense to say that AMG purposely limit the car eletronically for future introductions of more powerful version for commercial reasons.

Increasing car performance of older days in merc involves heavy tuning and upgrades of performance parts but look at the trend mercedes its going, they used their best engines and slap on twin turbos, what more could they go for? perhaps quad turbos in future but as for now, they have a GOLD nugget in their hand.

They can just use electronic program to easily adjust the performace of their best engine to put in new version of future CL/S/SL class. Makes sense to me. And couple that with new introduction with 7speed gearbox in future, they really will take over the world. And dont start the handling of merc thing, MERCEDES sports car are NOT positioned towards Ferrari or Porsche direction. Its just two totally different type of car makers if some other would still like to argue how bad Mercedes car handle compare with other super sports cars.

Now I may be naive regarding this engine restriction by AMG, but what other valid reasons are they? You can't just chip a Merc and gain 150hp/300NM instantly like that while reliability still stick bulletproof at 99% unless WHAT?

Unless that engine IS ALREADY MAKING that much power to start with.

Sorry I maybe very wrong here guys, dont bomb me.

gobiz

James, I think I may have read somewhere that the 65 engine ALREADY has a 700bhp/1300Nm output but AMG scaled it down to protect the gearbox.

I'm not too sure MB is playing out the right strategy re: putting out the rumored CL63, CL69. IMHO, by putting out progressively higher spec engines frequently, MB will come to a point where their customers will be alienated and frustrated. Imagine having bought a SL65 this year, then MB comes out with a SL69 late next year. The resale price of the SL65 then bombs.
IMHO, this will hold true even tho buyers of 65 series cars are in the highest income/wealth categories.

My guess is that the CL69 will be a totally different engine ie. it'll be N/A, like the 63.

just my 2cents

Paul Le Corre

To make things clear, the V12 biturbo made by AMG produce in reality 1200 NM. But the gearbox can't handle on a long term basis (Do I have to reminds you that AMG has to pass throught the same extended tests than normal MB cars). So AMG decide to limit the torque to 1000 NM, which is the maximum output the gearbox can handle on extended use.

Anyone who say that you can use the the gearbox with more than 1000 NM normally is telling lie. Of course you won't break the gearbox in 1000 miles with the Kleemann kit but I would like to see how things will going on at 60000 miles.

I don't want to be hard but if Kleemann is so successful here in the US, it's because US customers (usually) don't push their cars like Euro customers. At your opinion, why Kleemann is inexistant in Germany, in France and in many other euro countries??
In germany, you have cutomers who will do 150 mph+ on autobahn for two hours straight. If your engine kit is not very reliable you'll destroy your car in a couple of month. You have also much more people going to the track and again if the kit is not reliable enough, you'll ruin your car in a couple of months.
When you read the kleemann answer posted above, you'll read that the gearboxe is not taking more than 1000 NM on a continuous basis and that's why it can handle more than 1000 NM. This can be accepted on a everyday use but what if you at the track (where you reach the high rev all the time) or when you do 150 MPH+ (where you stay at high rev)???

So you'll members here saying "I have an Kleemann kit, and I'm fine", my talk is a general statement so don't take it personally.

If you don't believe me, just ask to the AMG owners club in Germany, in Switzerland or in Italy. You'll see what we'll be their answer.

James L.

Damn nice answer I suppose Paul.

You've just provided an argument point there for people to debate it out.

If you have know what I meant in earlier post, I knew that the car was mentioned by Mercedes to be restricted to 1000nm because of transmission not being able to handle it, but i also try to questions if that is just an excuse by mercedes to restrict the 1000nm for commercial reasons for future more powerful variants like CL69.

Kleeman does exist in denmark if i'm not wrong. They're headquarters are there. Perhaps I believe Kleeman just have not done enough research into the gearbox problem and went on to upgrade the ECU for higher performance ratings already.

Now if Kleeman is so confidence of saying the gearbox wouldn't be a problem if it is not susbtaining a constant load of above 1000NM and espeacially for the US market since it doesn't demand as much as Europeans road, would you have believe AMG would have not thought of the same? That AMG would introduce a unrestricted 65 for the US market since it demands less on its transmission? Its just doesn't makes sense.

For me Paul, I believe only 2 arguments points here.

1.) AMG is restricting the powerband for commercial reasons and not gearbox/tranmission problems
2.) Kleeman is LYING or has not done enough "responsible" research to valid a 100hp/300NM ECU reprogramme. And that AMG transmission woes above 1000NM is True.

Paul Le Corre

First of all, I don't believe in a CL69 AMG. But I don't want to enter into an argument for this. Now let's take an other example, Brabus. Brabus is producing a Engine kit on the 5.5L V12 biturbo called SV12. This kit composed of many upgrades like modified displacement,etc...
The kit produce 640 HP and 1026 NM. If you ask to Brabus (I did ask to the Brabus France Boss) why the kit doesn't produce more torque due to the extended upgrades, they will answer that the Gearbox can't handle it. Brabus has no commercial interest in telling this and, at the contrary, should try to go further than AMG to prove that they are the best tuner.
That's why I don't believe in the commercial theory.

An unrestricted 65 model wouldn't be compliant to all the extensive MB tests. Mercedes tests are the same wherever the car is sold. AMG can't take the risk to sell cars that which can be faulty
Take this as an example. The speed restriction is something due to the fact that German autobahn are (under some circumstances) limit free. So all the big manufacturers decided to sign a global agreement on the 155 MPH limit for any cars produced (except Porsche, but the volume of cars produced was not high enough to be taken as consideration). Since this is made for Germany, it should apply only in Germany, but AMG cars sold worldwide have all the 155 MPH restriction.

Believe me, if derestricting the torque limit was risk free, AMG manufaktur would do it like they derestrict speed limit ( in fact they are not completely derestricted, they have an other speed limit which correspond to the max safe speed of the car, 280 or 300 kmh) (again you can see that AMG stay under the safe limit, even with speed)

AMG2GO

Guys the dyno graphs are right there. The 65 engine is running close to max on the current turbos. Even if the trans COULD handle it, there is no software update that is going to release all this HP. JLLK I don't think its a marketing reason. These are very high numbers coming from a factory car with a warranty. I am amazed that MB has handled the heat, emmissions, and reliability issues with what is here now. A 600 HP motor makes a LOT of heat!

It may be capable of 700HP, but I think when that was told (and I believe it was an article in Car and Driver), they may have been talking about the engine internals capable of it. You need larger turbos for much more power than 600. The graph is not lying. Then you need a trans that can handle it. After that, you may have some chassis issues. That kind of torque if it hooks up will just twist the chassis like a pretzel.

The CL is a 2000 model. It wasn't designed to handle this kind of power. The reason there is no LSD may be because of chassis strength problems. I think we are at the limits of what we will see here until the next generation CL.

James L.

So case in point is that Kleeman has not done enough research to warrant such a statement (What was mentioned earlier in this thread). It can be very misleading the consumers. (That the tranny would be able to handle it)

Perhaps it still a big risk to depend on tuners on these kind of issues. (Contrary to in house tuners like AMG and Brabus)

ps. btw i'm jllk. had my name changed.

Mikec87

Just checking the numbers. Assuming the weight of a CL65 is about 4654 lbs, the Motor Trend car ran 120.9 mph, and to do that it made 641.88 bhp that day. The E.T. was 11.8 and with perfect traction that car could run 11.279 secs.

With an extra 125 bhp, trap spped on the same weight car would now be 127.958 mph with a thoeretical E.T. of 10.6522 seconds. There was 0.521 sec difference between the real world time and the "perfect" time. Add 0.521 to the 10.6522 and we get 11.1732 E.T.

With a LSD and drag slicks, it is very possible that a 739 bhp, 1300 Nm CL65 would run a high 10. That is very awsome indeed.

TNblkc230wz

The LSD and Drag Radial should get you to the 10's. No one tire will hold down 1000nm. The 0-200K will probably be little changed with the Kleeman kit as traction is the limiting factor stock and will be more so if more torque is applied.

Go with the LSD, maybe a 3.07 axle ration and you should get similar results in day to day driving without additional stress on the engine and transmission.