slytoksy

http://www.germancarfans.com/tuners....ercedes/1.html

739hp and 1300Nm!!!

Lov2xlr8

damn thats powerful. and i love the body work.

BTW how did they add more torque if AMG had to limit it b/c of the tranny.

AMGB

What about the transmission? I didn't think the 5 speed could handle all that torque?

amgB

Bilal

It can't...

All tuners like to play with fire.... Why do you think Ben Treynor had to get his upgrade from Kleemann reversed? It was putting out less power on the dyno than before...I think he's going with Kleemann now...

If AMG can't do it, NOBODY can!

Merry Xmas to all!

davepl

What happened to Treynor's car? And I thought his was Renntech, not Kleeman?

Bilal

He originally got a Kleemann ECU upgarde for his SL65. He was commenting that it was stupidly fast afterwards. Then he dyno'ed the car, turns out the car was putting down less power than stock....He asked Kleemann for an explanation, but then some days later, he said his ECU will be going to renntech now....

From that, you can only assume Kleemann don't know what the hell they're doing...



EDIT In my earlier post I meant he's going with renntech now....

EDIT 2, please refer to this thread....

https://mbworld.org/forums/sl55-amg-sl63-amg-sl65-amg-r230/90916-treynor-dyno-numbers.html

Sleestack

Bilal... do you have any experience with Kleemann? They are a top notch company with many happy customers. Furthermore, they have pumped out plenty of sick cars. As far as I can tell from that thread, Treynor had his problems fixed and it sounds like it wasn't an issue with the Kleemann ECU.

Bilal

To quote Ben from that thread:

"Regardless, I was not able to measure any performance gains over stock in actual testing, either on the dyno or in timed acceleration runs.

Sooo... the Kleemann programming goes out and the RENNtech programming goes in next week. As is my wont, I'll let you guys know how it works out as soon as I have the ECUs back and some test data to report."

If they are such a reputable company, then why is he going to renntech?

Sleestack

Yeah, but later in the thread he says:

"An update - the "check engine" light was the result of a malfunction in the emissions system (the purge valve wiring was faulty from the factory) unrelated to the Kleemann ECU. MB fixed it, and the car now pulls cleanly up to 140... on a remote test track, of course."

I'm not sure if he ended up keeping the Kleemann ECU, however, even if he didn't, why would 1 customer's decision to try another tuner discount the fact that there are many Kleemann customers who have dyno proven Kleemann modified cars and magazines who have also heaped praises on Kleemann and their products.

Bilal

I should've known, saying they don't know what they're doing constitutes defamation, a civil wrong, I hope they're not reading this!

Well, they can be as reputable a company as AMG, but by offering power upgrades for an already stressed engine, and by not modifying additional transmission/driveline components, they're playing with fire.

Lets think about it, the original 65 engine output was reputed by AMG and quoted by Peter Robinson of Autocar as being "over 700bhp and 885lb.ft). This engine had to be detuned with lower boost and a torque limiter, hence the completely flat torque curve of 1000NM from 2-4K rpms, for reasons of transmission reliability and longevity. Since AMG has to work according to Mercedes safety and reliability regulations, producing a slightly reliable car was not an option. AMG cars have intense power outputs and can put an enormous strain on engine components and completely shred the transmission if abused and whatnot. It is for the safeguarding of these occurences that AMG chose to limit the power output of its engine.

Now Kleemann come along, modify your ECU, giving you additional boost, giving you 739hp and 1300NM, and not touch anything else on the car and the car will run reliably for years to come? NOPE. They're doing it because some customers can't get enough, even if there are additional circumstances beyond their control, ie. engine reliability or top speed limited by tyre technology. It is for these reasons that Kleemann, Brabus, Carlsson etc. give you what they give. To quench the thirst of monster power not burdened by issues of reliability.

In the UK at least, any modification whatsoever will void your warranty, the dealers do NOT tolerate it. An ECU mod will probably never be detected, but once the tranny blows, and that black box of an ECU is sent to Germany for testing, it will reveal redline, operating boost of the turbo's and any other telltale signs of modifications.. End result? You're on the recieving end of a a new engine 40K GBP+ for 5.5 N/ A V8 or 5K GBP for new transmission...

Now I know this is a risk everyone takes by going to the tuners, but at least Brabus offer a 3 year warranty on theIr mods AND coverage for any other parts damaged as a result of the modification---much more like it, not what Kleemann do, is it?

I am also aware that there are people with Kleemann mods that are doing well over 100K miles safely and reliably, and I do not possess the thought that AMG is the be all and end all to all tuned Mercs, but it sure makes you wonder why Kleemann/any other tuner does something that AMG can't, given AMG's vast financial resources aka DCX for testing.

Therefore, I do not trust independent tuners, regardless of whatever they offer. A biased attitude I'll admit albeit with no experience of tuners, but with our Merc ownership experiences (brand new car with tranny blowing after 20K miles et. al) and seeing how mods negate warranty, I wouldn't want to mess with a 145K GBp car that puts out 1000Nm @2K rpms with ECU mods, would you?

Sleestack

I don't disagree with your assessment on the risks associated with tuning. I have my cars tuned knowing that I might end up footing the bill if something catastrophic happens.... that being said, I haven't had any problems with my MKB, Kleemann or Evosport products. You are definitely testing the redundancy built into MBs when you make significant gains in power, however, to answer your question, I don't think it is an issue of AMG not being able to do it, but one of AMG wanting to leave a significant amount of redundancy in the cars. Most major tuners do a significant amount of R&D and certainly aren't giving their customers cars that are testing the limits of detonation or failure.

As for me, I don't mind taking te risks. I have not had any problems and have had my cars running the way I want. Its not for everyone, but it works for me.

neoprufrok

Great discussion guys. Is Brabus the only mercedes tuner that offers a warranty on their parts as well as assocated engine/powertrain parts?

AMG2GO

Having had a lot of experience with aftermarket tuners, I can say that Bilal is right on about the points he makes. Something mild can be usually tolerated but anything significant is usually unrelaible. AMG is already pushing the envelope of the Merc engines, to take that and push it further is risky business.

Most of the aftermarket tuners make their mods sound a lot more reliable than they really are.

Bilal

Sleestack, you're a braver man than I

Thanks guys, and don't quote me 100%, but when there use to be a Brabus UK site I remember reading the warranty clause stating that Brabus provide a 3 year warranty on their tuning, as well as any other affected parts as a result of the modification...

That means you get a 7.3 V12 conversion from them, and then your AC fails, thats not Brabus' fault....but if the transmission blows, or any other engine dependent/related systems, then they'll cover you....But don't quote me fully. You might want to email them directly to find out the full terms and conditions of warranty.

Sleestack

I have to disagree about AMG already pushing the envelope of the Merc engines. MB engines, even those tuned by AMG, are pretty conservative relative to their displacement. There are dozens of MBworld members, including me, who have heavily modified MBs, drive them every day and have had no issues. It isn't a fluke. For the most part, MB tuners aren't going to create tuning programs that create significant rates of failure. MB owners wouldn't tolerate it, especially given the cost of most of the tuning options out there.

I agree that tuning $100K+ MBs isn't for the risk adverse, however I think the percentage of people who have had significant issues with MBs tuned by a reputable tuner is very small.

As for Brabus and their warranty... Brabus has a relationship with MB that gets their work covered. Brabus is obviously a great tuner, however their tuning is much more conservative than some of the other tuners.... which is probably a part of the reason they can have the relationship they have with MB. Nevertheless, I don't think every MB enthusiast wants to stuff a V12 in their car to get massive power.

slytoksy

And your point is???

Bilal

Don't mess with AMG Engines!

athlon70

If your happy with standard, then stick with AMG, some people want more.

As for the Barbus warranty, break something and then see the **** fight between Brabus and Mercedes as to who is to blame.