SSpray

This was at the Car&Driver shoot out.

rguy

Hartmut tends to build custom stuff for those events that isn't available to the public. Though I am not sure the point of advertising products to the world that aren't offered for sale, I think it is akin to a concept car. Or a prototype that might get made later on down the line.

I love their stuff, but they need to cut out the middle man to cut costs and lower prices before they will get me back as a customer.

CynCarvin32

Never knew there was a middle man in a 1 off modification. So when you buy it from the source and it is a 1 off where is the middle man? The whole reason that RENNtech mods are expensive is that they do not do mass production items like Kleemann and Carlsson. They do what each customer demands not what will make for a wonderful profit margin. When u make 1 item like that exhaust system there is only 1 unit over which to spread the fabrication and R&D costs so yes it would cost a great deal.

BlackC230Coupe

I saw that car at Renntech not to long ago on the dyno, it was cool, but the owner has ghetto looking chrome rims on it. Renntech only put the renntech wheels on for the shoot.

rguy

CynCarvin,

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but MOST of the parts RENNtech has are PURCHASED from vendors SPECIFIED by RENNtech.

They then resell the parts to you. If they did their own work, they could cut costs in my opinion. The middle man is on the manufacturing side, not the resale side. Plus, they could very quickly do one offs rather than having them farmed out for fabrication and waiting in line behind other tuners getting their parts made from the same vendor.

The quality of RENNtech parts has gone down since they started going down this path. They don't even fab their own exhausts anymore.

Point being I am disappointed. RENNtech use to be a fabricator and for the parts that go to their customers, they have really become a reseller.

Now, I realize, initial capital investment is large, but over time costs would drop like a rock.

Volume is another key factor, and I agree with you on that fact. Honestly though, they have been selling things like essentially the same exhaust, wheels, suspensions, airboxes, ECU programmings, body kits, interiors, and others since at least eight years ago. I only mention this because they don't have to put very much R and D into their products anymore, they just have to upgrade what they already have.

It also scares me that a RENNtech car can't seem to finish a high horsepower competition for Car and Driver without some sort of major or complete failure of the car.

Bottom line, I used to pay their higher prices because I got handcrafted old world parts that looked, felt, and exuded quality. Now most of their performance parts look like they could be off a honda.

I really am not trying to flame RENNtech, there is AMAZING human capital there, I just think they have strayed from the path and that was to do it BETTER than AMG.

AMG2GO

wow... you tell'em like it is rguy!!!

BlackC230Coupe

Just curious, i dont remember the last shootout to well in car and driver, but the CL55 pictured above and the SL600 they used didnt finish? What problems occured?

rguy

Hey BlackC230Coupe,

I am not at home, so don't take what I am about to say as gospel, but I believe last time RENNtech finished the events, but that they had at least one major computer problem that shut down the whole car (SL I think) for quite some time. They aren't alone of course, John Lingenfelter brought a truck a couple years ago that had the corvette C5R racing engine in it with over 700 hp and ran a 10.8 second quarter at which point the beefed up automatic transmission exploded. And this year mosler and his race car for the road blew a clutch very badly and choppered in a new clutch from chicago. The track got so pissed that mosler landed a chopper without authorization on their infield that C and D almost got booted from the track. My point is that everyone flubs up occasionally, but it seem like RENNtech's stuff at competitions regularly does and you can almost count on some kind of catastrophic thing happening that they will either figure out there or later back at the shop. Hope this helps and clarifies.

rguy

Thanks AMG2go for agreeing with me. I don't mean to get too fired up about things, but some things just make me sad.

goalie_k

Just read the article for the facts.

5th and 6th place.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=5


http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=4

rguy

Did some fact checking to be sure.

Sl600 ran great, but was only slightly modified.

Cl55 got stuck in 2nd gear after one run and would not get out of 2nd gear. Don't know if it was the transmission computer or a physically blown tranny.

Either way, not good.

rguy

Almost 190 grand for a tranny problem after one run.

CynCarvin32

rguy

You need to study an MB tranny and understand how it works before you banter about this topic. A simple error code or a false reading from a sensor can throw the tranny into limp home mode. So for you to claim that the RENNtech suffered a failure due to the upgrades is nothing but 100% wrong.

I drove my C32 so hard for a 45 minute period that the tranny shut down due to excessive temps (could not stay cool) and the tranny went into first and second gears only and had delayed shift points. So look a stock car did exactly what the RENNtech car did in the test.

That said the RENNTech car did not suffer this issue due to tranny temps but instead a error code. Had they had a MB DAS system there to clear the code the car would have worked perfectly. For them to get that time in the first lap shows that the vehicle is extremely capable and that it would have been far quicker had it not thrown an error code.

The list of error codes thrown by my car is fairly long and I doubt RENNtech can fix the issues created by MB production methods.

MB's have issues and that means a RENNtech MB will suffer those same issues.

Learn the real issue before you throw around claims about RENNtech and attempt to give them a bad name.

Imperfect canvas = imperfect piece of art

rguy

CynCarvin32,

Do you just hunt around the forums looking to be the keeper of right and wrong? I don't know if you find it to be some kind of fun game or what, but I am not impressed. In each post I had in this thread I said some amazingly complementary things about RENNtech. I also told the truth about some things about RENNtech. Believe me, I know the real issues better than you do when it comes to this topic.

So, let me ask you some things. Do you work at RENNtech? Were you there when the problem happened to the tranny? Did you actually read my posts? This is what C and D had to say:

"The guys from RENNtech had a bit of trouble this year with their entry in the Sedan Class. The car, a highly modified Mercedes CL55 AMG, ran fine on public roads, but at the track the transmission stuck itself in second gear. On its one run without problems, the CL55 posted an overall time of 110.1 seconds, enough to put it fifth in a class of seven."

Guess what? An error code is most likely a transmission computer problem and neither you nor I will ever know exactly what happened. They didn't mention any 45 minute lapping sessions before the "first run", so that explanation of yours seems to be out as well.

All I know is that C and D went to print with it and nobody seemed to stop them. No retractions or apologies or clarifications were made in subsequent issues. They modified the engine computer as well by the way; in case that is your next claim. The article states the vehicle got stuck in 2nd gear, not that it couldn't get passed 2nd gear as you invented. I am glad we got that cleared up so you know where I was coming from rather than you inventing where I was coming from.

If you say that Car and Driver has no journalistic integrity and they blew it out of proportion....then fine, that is your prerogative. Personally, I don't care what you think or say anymore about the issue.

No one can name one Car and Driver Super Shootout where they have been problem free. Pure and simple either they are the most unlucky mercedes customer in the free world (which must be your contention), or they have problems and push things too far for these comparos. Or the scary possibility, they aren't testing their vehicles before going to competition.

Either way it makes me nervous to shell out $37,800 plus sales tax for a high boost performance package that hasn't done well in the track reliability zone. I can get the same amount of power from the Kleeman package that runs at lower boost and for only $13,000 plus sales tax. What am I going to do with 550 HP in the street? RENNtech which is a german/english composite word meaning “racing technology” never seems to get that racing reliability. To win a race, you have to finish one.
I would never make false accusations about a company without being able to back it up with at least one reputable source besides my own experiences, and for you to challenge my integrity really ticks me off. We don't challenge people's integrity around here. It's rude and makes you look bad. I hope you watch your mouth in public, because someday someone is going to either knock you out or shoot you dead. I only mention it because I have some humanitarian vested interest in you living a full natural life.

If you have anything more to say to me, then you say it to me privately. I won't be replying to anymore of your personal rhetoric.

schwarzwagen

what items did you purchase from renntech in the past?

schwarzwagen

i know that renntech works with mkb on occasion to save on r&d, but most of hartmut's products are one off designs.

never-the-less, mb uses vendors, why cant renntech? just curious.

schwarzwagen

c&d has been known to print bs too. i would stray away from using that as a basis for argument. the guys at c&d are not mb techs, i dont think they know what happens to mb transmissions when they get temperamental and throw error codes. there is no oversight committee watching over c&d, just the readers. just read the 'letters to the editor' you will find many corrections by readers.

rguy

schwarzwagen, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I have no problem with you in any way. I am just tired of this conversation as cyncarvin32 has pretty much killed the mojo.

I will say that C and D is never wrong about the same company with different cars for at least three years in a row. The statistical data says they have trouble with frequency. So I will trust C and D on this, even though yes, they occasionally print BS. I am sure they asked Hartmut what was wrong with the car, and I am sure he said we can't get it out of second gear. I wasn't there, I just have to trust they made their best attempt at journalistic integrity. As for past years, when the car has been put into limp home mode, they have written such. They never said the tranny got stuck in gear, they said the car went into limp home mode and they couldn't figure out why.....back at the shop, hartmut found an error code in the ecu. I think that one was a fuel mapping problem, but don't quote me. That is an entirely different tone and explanation than saying the tranny was stuck in gear.

Back in the day, RENNtech had the best one-off designs and the best one-off fabrication, but today they just are modifying things they already have designed. There is nothing wrong with that, I mean why reinvent the wheel, but there hasn't been a concomitant price break. I think things started going down hill when they started modifying the C230 kompressor sport coupe. I don't know if it was the time or the car, but we'll never know that either.

In my original post I clearly stated, and you quoted this, that they specify the product to their vendors. For example, they will specify spring rates or dampener stiffness for their suspension kits. I don't know the design split, but I expect their was a good deal of collaberation with the shop that is making their wheels, as they make lots of wheel designs for lots of companies. Their exhausts cannot possibly be made by them now.

The last time I purchased an exhaust from them, for around $2500 cat back, it was hand welded by a guy and took him three days to make. He photographed every single part and how it went to together since there was no manual for a handmade exhaust. Now they are clearly stamped out at some factory and powder coated black to keep rust out I guess. That is just an example of what I am talking about and I hope that clarifies my statement about going from old world craftsmanship to new world honda.

Lastly, I would love to see them return to the top. I would like to see them making their own parts again and would like to see their prices come down to market levels. I am willing to pay 5 times the header price for a good header on a mb, but I am not willing to pay 10 times the header price for a good header.

I like the people there and I wish them the best. I am truly hopeful for the company because I think they are needed. We just need them the way they were rather than the way they are. Hope this helps.

goalie_k

Here are 2.....

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=2

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=2

CynCarvin32

Rguy,

I have killed no “mojo” in this thread. I am very sorry if you are feeling threatened because someone has challenged your point of view. In your posts you talk about a topic of which you have virtually no knowledge and this I find to be the biggest issue. Instead of saying that the car could have had a minor error code you go around insulting their work and saying that they are equal to Honda tuners in nature.

Lets start with this quote of yours: “I know the real issues better than you do and when it comes to this topic.” Lets get this 100% clear rguy, you do not know more than me on this topic. I do not work for RENNtech, I do not sell RENNtech parts but I do have a great deal of respect for Hartmut and his customer service. I am not insulting you but I must say I know a great deal about this topic and your posts here seem to be a rehash of the C&D article we all read last month. Your post has quotes from, paraphrases from, and allusions to the article but I dont see anything beyond that. Where are these facts that make you speak of? I have known what “RENNtech” meant since 1989 when the company opened. Heck I knew people that worked with Hartmut in the early 80's (Hammer W124 project).

The car was stuck in second gear and this is known as the “limp home mode” because you have enough speed to get you home without stressing a component that has a potential mechanical issue. Now the car can go into limp home mode for a multitude of reasons but the majority of them are caused by transmission and torque converter malfunctions. The car in question did not have a mechanical failure and word has it that there was an electrical glitch that threw an error code that pushed the car into “limp home mode.” I highly doubt the whole idea of a fuel mapping being that RENNtech and EVOtech have chipped thousands of vehicle (From Mini’s to Lambo’s) and something life fuel mixtures and timing are easily modified without issue.

You said the vehicle in question had a “high boost performance package” but in reality it had an SLR style intercooler and intake system with a RENNtech ecu, pulley, cams, headers etc. The biggest expense was fabricating the 1 off SLR style intercool given the far different configuration of the CL’s engine compartment. RENNtech is the only tuner to have made such a drastic intercooler upgrade but this upgrade is the best item available because the factory and most tuner cars heat soak terribly after 1 run through the gears. You make it sound as if the car was a “high boost kit” but in fact it was not since RENNtech did not do any supercharger upgrades other than pullies. This was not a vehicle with the newer generation, non IHI (ie. AMG blower), supercharger seen on some RENNtech vehicles.

From the article: “larger intercoolers, $18,250; ECU and TCU upgrade with crankshaft pulley kit, $4995; headers, $4900; side exhaust, $2490; stronger axle shafts, $1250; labor, $2390”

You said openly in your post rguy that “I would never make false accusations about a company without being able to back it up with at least one reputable source…” but I never saw a reputable source other than C&D (a magazine written for the masses). You are free to call my posts “personal rhetoric” but the fact remains that you want to be free to post your view without a challenge from other board users. If you plan to flame a company it normally is best to expect a dialog to ensue about your post. The last section reminds me of someone needing to have the last word in debate. My safety in life is fine and I only confront users of MBworld.org who speak without some factual basis for their opinions. I have never had an issue with being threatened or had a gun pulled on me but thanks for the warning. I doubt I will ever have to worry about it though. Yes the car had a malfunction but I bet it works just fine right now. Kleemann does the same modifications to all 55k motors while this RENNtech car was a 1-off style job. Funny thing is that Kleemann has a good chunk of blown motors in thier past while RENNtech has been far more successful in protecting the owners cars. I call that quality R&D testing.

Final boiled down point. I hate seeing people insult companies who push the envelope when tuning a car. Nothing is flawless and MB has terrible issues with error codes and bad sensors these days so why can’t the RENNtech suffer the same troubles? The RENNtech CL55 in my mind worked flawlessly and if I owned it I would have the sensor replaced or have the minor issue resolved and enjoy the car. The CLK GTX that RENNtech entered in the past C&D shootout was the first car to use a blower (before AMG did) and it only failed because the blower housing chaffed a wire on the harness and it caused a false reading. That is something that comes with testing and that car was finished only 2 days before the shootout so I again think it did very well.

There is only 1 tuner I would ever let work on my car. RENNtech

CynCarvin32

Rguy also missed the 2-3 test where RENNtech had the 600 hp NA 7.4L V12 R129 vehicle. Those NEVER had an issue and some customers have put 150k miles on those motors. I think they are known as bulit-proof.

rguy

Goalie_k,

Those both took me to the same car, but I did find the slk they brought that year, and it did work. So, I stand corrected for that year. Was that two or three years ago?

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I really appreciate it.

schwarzwagen

i think it is less than coincidental that mb cars of late and renntech cars of late have been having problems. throwing transmission error codes is more than likely a faulty sensor, putting the onus on mb and not renntech. however, you are right in saying that renntech cars seem to be more problematic these days. i would be hesitant, however, to point the finger at renntech when i think its more about the recurrent quality problems at mb that are coming to the surface when the cars are modified.

rguy

Cyncarvin32,

Since your post was mostly neutral this time (not negative), I will reply to it. I warn you though, I am upset with you and you might not like everything I have to say. If you don’t think you can take it then stop here. Otherwise, I swear I am trying to help you by writing this stuff.

I don’t feel threatened by you. It would take much more for me to feel threatened, but I don’t appreciate it when you try to make personal attacks rather than informational ones. You misunderstood my original post and instead of asking for clarification politely, you took an unsolicited condescending tone and tried to make me out to be an idiotic fool who doesn’t even know what a middle man is. Was that necessary? You also have consistently put words in my mouth that never originated from me. This shows that you get so excited about a post of mine or a chance to maybe “own” me that you don’t even read the post.

For example, I never said that it couldn’t be a minor error code. I said something happened to the transmission, it got stuck in 2nd gear, everyone had a chance for C and D to print something different (which nobody did) akin to what they had said in years past about the car going into limp home mode, and that we will never know what caused it. You certainly don’t, and neither do I. But does that mean I am not nervous? No. It scares the hell out of me. I stand behind my statements.

This brings us to two more errant reading of my posts, I never said they were equal to Honda tuners in nature. I said that the parts they are putting out could be off a Honda and that the vendors they use are working for other tuners too. Could they be Honda tuners? I don’t know for sure, but I would definitely believe it.

But, I do know that in every single post of mine I have praised their human capital there, and said repeatedly that I loved the way they used to be. This includes the car in your last post, which was built before they started going down the vendor road. I can even produce the reprint from C and D on that single car evaluation sent to me by RENNtech from when I was developing my relationship with them.

Nevermind the fact that it wasn’t a comparo car, which I have said are the problem cars for RENNtech and that them failing on the track in comparos makes me not want to buy product from them. So even though you mentioned it to get more “ownage” and have consistently insisted that I say they are crap workers and that they don’t know what they are doing and used this car as an example of a great car that proves me wrong (even though I clearly stated competition cars from RENNtech are failing to finish or run flawlessly frequently), you only ended up proving you don’t read my posts.

As for your personal rhetoric, I know for a fact that you don’t know more about this than I do. You might be one of their customers just like me, but that is it. I have consistently mentioned my respect for the people there, despite your claims. I never even mentioned their customer service (so I don’t know where that came from). I only rehashed the C and D article because you didn’t seem to read that either. The journalists at C and D were primary witnesses to everything that happened at the track and so have written primary sources of information about the events that day. I don’t need to learn how a MB tranny works or what limp home mode means, because I knew about it years before I started posting here. I am glad you “know” everybody (although I see no way that that has any bearing on this conversation). I think it would be cool to know everybody too.

Nevertheless, if a car has a transmission malfunction or a torque converter malfunction, is this not a major problem? I don’t want it to happen to me when pulling on to the highway. By the way, you go ask Hartmut or EVOtech if they think it is easy to alter fuel mapping on cars, especially MB cars. I think they will find you to be insulting them. You still haven’t figured out what caused that glitch and for the last time….neither you nor I know exactly what happened, but it makes me nervous.

The next errant piece of information, further proving you don’t read my posts, is that you said I said the car in question had a “High boost performance package”. I clearly did not, as is available for anyone here to read and see. I said instead that I felt uncomfortable shelling out nearly forty thousand dollars for a high boost package from someone who hasn’t shown good competitive track reliability since changing their business and development practices. I never thought the CL had a high boost package, I never thought you would think that. Would I honestly refer to an article, fully knowing that it lists every modification on the car, and claim it had something entirely different than it had? Come on guy. I just needed something equal to compare to showing the humongous difference in prices between two companies who are both respected for their talent.

rguy

I would never make false accusations about any company without at least one reputable source. You just admitted that C and D is a reputable source and I referred to it. So what is the problem? Also, I am a reliable source, so there are two. But C and D is more powerful here because they have built up notoriety for journalistic integrity since they started writing all those years ago. I am, by comparison, new.

Let’s get this out of the way too. I am completely open to people challenging my views, but challenging me as a person and challenging my views are two different things. You tried to make me look stupid while sharing your dissenting opinion. You could have just said that you need things better spelled out for you because you are trying to understand my viewpoint BEFORE presenting yours. Instead you, surprise, surprise, went for the “ownage” which had nothing to do with what I said in the first place. This is your modus operandi and the only reason for the time I am spending here. If I didn’t think there was hope for you, because you do have a good amount of knowledge when you use it for the powers of good and not ownage, I wouldn’t waste my time.

As for flaming RENNtech, I specifically said I wasn’t trying to flame RENNtech, again you didn’t read my posts. You finally admitted to being a confronter, but you picked the wrong guy to confront for the wrong reasons. I had plenty of factual backup evidence. I also bet the car is working just fine now too. If you were humiliated at a competition for bringing a car that couldn’t finish (not to mention the fact that many of the greats in this field were there watching), wouldn’t you fix the problem? Look, I don’t need to advertise for Kleemann, but the worst thing I have ever heard of happening was the MB factory water pump breaking.

I hate seeing people insult companies who push the limits too. Lingenfelter brought a GMC pickup truck with a professional corvette racing engine in it and they blew the crap out of the tranny. I applaud that, and even mentioned it as an example of companies proving that RENNtech isn’t alone in having failed at a competition. As for the CLK GTX, a failure is a failure is a failure, and I have only said they have had trouble with temporary or complete failures in the last few years since changing their business platform. Maybe they should have planned ahead before staking their reputation on two days of time between shootout and build-out. There are many tuners I would let work on my car, and I hope to include RENNtech in that list again some day soon.

Final boiled down points: If you don’t need to have the last word, then why did you reply hypocritically? To prove I don’t need to have the last word to you, I won’t reply to this thread ever again. You can even say I have sex with mules, and you will just be making yourself look bad. If you want to work this out, then you can PM me. I am waiting. I want to work it out. I want to happily coexist with you. We shouldn’t be arguing here, we should be blowing the doors off the competition. I came here to laugh not get ticked off.