MooksM275

Do not worry. Many of the people responding don't/have never/will never have a Cl65 most likely due to the "stories" they hear.
I have had many cars before the CL65 including M6 etc. The Cl65 is no more expensive/no more risky than any other car. Does anyone know what 4 vanos solenoids cost for a 2008 BMW m6?????Go google it.

The main issue is that people do not know what they are doing, take it to a dealer, the dealer doesn't fix everything and then it becomes a wack a mole type situation. For example, the front main pressure hose is time consuming to fix and the dealer will charge many hours for this hose. I saw one person pay over $2000 for one hose. When the dealer changed this hose, they left the other main pressure hose alone. Guess what happened-the other hose failed, which damaged the pump. That hose and pump with dealer labor was like 3500-4000. So now you have a total bill of $6000 for 2 hoses and a pump. Well, those two hoses cost from dealer about $500. You can do it yourself no problem, just take your time. The pump will be saved for the time but when you have change at least you wont have the main hoses to deal with.

Another key factor is the class of car it is-the CL65 is not a CL55 and it is not a E55 or E63 or S63 .....it is a CL65 with a AMG v12-the experience is by and far in a class of its own. Can you have a major failure that will cost you major $$$$? of course you can, but this can happen in any other car. I do not think that Porsche turbo engines are cheapo these days. Of course, ABC stuff will need to be maintained and things like ignition and seals will have to be addressed. But like you said, every car needs maintenance. Luckily AMG built a very solid drivetrain that can take this massive power and abuse with ease.

From my experience with the car, I can tell you that some items that are more likely to have issues due to age not mileage. The seals and o rings that are on the turbocharger oil and coolant lines get brittle and may leak. Also, the piston oil control rings in the back of the engine tend to get a little dirty. Make sure to let the car cool lightly after hard driving and keep oil changes way under factory recommended (5k miles prob good place to be). Oil flush can be used if rings get overly gunked. The issue with the control ring is that it is very small (2.0 mm vs 2.5 mm on S600) and there are only 4 total drainback holes on the piston. The m279 pistons on the newest S65 has 8 total drainback holes on the pistons which tends to show that Mercedes knew this was an issue and made a change with the newer cars. Again, the engine is not at risk but can affect oil consumption etc.

Also, I highly suggest you get a Xentry Star diagnostic system as it makes owning any mercedes that much easier. No dealer trips for these things will help a lot.\\

As for oil change-yes it takes 11 quarts. What I do is add the oil up to 10 and than use the diagnostic menu on the instrument cluster to check how close it is. You can then add from there. To get to diagnostic menu, turn the key to position 1 and press the reset button on instrument cluster 3 times very quickly. Then use the steering wheel buttons to scroll to menu with quarts displayed. When there, turn key to position 2 to check oil level. Be aware, that the oil level show will show in quarts different than the actual fill (for example will show 9.5 when you have added 10). I believe that the system is measuring what is in the pan only. Use the regular oil menu to check how many quarts low you are and then you will get a gist for how much the diagnostic menu should read. Hope this makes sense.

As for trans dipstick, you can get a dipstick but it is not meant to be left in while driving. Also, it is very important to know the exact transmission temp when you check fluid level. Xentry Star diagnostic is the best way to do this.

In any case, congratulations with the car. I hope you have many miles with smiles. If you need help with anything, please post to the forum and the members with 65's can help.
And welcome the club of only 194 cars imported to North America and 777 worldwide.

All the best,

MooksM275

Go with OEM on oil filter-not expensive from dealer honestly and easy. Air filters go with mann or mahle.

You can use 5w-40 as this is a change that Mercedes is making across the range given leak-down on the lifters when hot. Depending on the climate, shouldn't be an issue.
If you want an alternative, 5w40 pennzoil ultra "euro" is very very good oil as used by Ferrari and many other high end car (new GT3 RS etc). I have over 20k miles on this oil and have done Blackstone oil analysis with it. At 6500 miles, there were no wear metals and Blackstone said it was one of the cleanest oil reports they have seen. Car has 100k miles. But make sure that the pennzoil has the ferrari logo and is the ultra euro.

The euro oil has high SAPS (sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfur) which is very good for antiwear etc. Amsoil also makes these euro oils as well.
https://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/aut...-saps-content/

As for other maintenance, I would examine the vacuum lines closely as these are very important to the proper functioning of the air injection system as well as the turbos diverter valves.

Cheers,

Welwynnick

What Mooks says.

Ignore scaremongers! These cars are difficult, but they're manageable, and they're rewarding.

There are lots of folks who have learned the hard way, like me.

Just make sure the heater inlet drains aren't blocked with leaves. There's one on top of another.

ABC and ignition will go wrong, but they're avoidable and fixable.

Nick

MooksM275

Saw that you asked about these issues so thought I would help address them.

The SRS light could be as simple as resetting the check light with Xentry Star Diagnostic. I for example, was in process of examining the door wiring and disconnected the connector leading to the driver side airbag on door. I accidentally turned key to second position while this was unplugged which set the SRS light. The way the system works, once SRS error is logged, it can only be reset with Xentry (cannot simply unplug battery). It is possible that owner had steering wheel airbag off for steering wheel buttons as well. If not, then as someone stated, could be seatbelt wiring but Xentry would tell you exactly what it is. Best thing to do is reset the codes and see if they come back in order to identify exactly what it is.

The whine depends. If the whine is there all the time regardless of the load you put on engine, it could actually be the center bearing on driveshaft-very common on all mercedes and can cause what you are saying. If the whiine gets louder on load then could be the transmission pump but generally this will whine like crazy only when you really pound the hammer down. The other area for whine is the pulsation dampener sphere on the pressure regulator. This is the ABC pressure regulator block under engine/transmission behind crossmember under passenger side. Its common for the whine to occur above like 2000 rpm for example and to my recollection, happens even when in park revving.

Given your symptoms, my best guess would be driveline center bearing but more info would be needed.
Does the whine occur in park while revving? get louder with speed? or louder with load?

As for vibration in steering, these cars are very isolated from the road and can hide worn suspension parts extremely well-i.e. they drive exceptional even with bad ball joints etc. when comparing to other cars. Have a good go through and check balljoints on steering tie rods and pay close attention to the ball joint at bottom of strut (its inside of the control arm and attaches to strut at bottom front). Jack up the car and with wheel hanging push the wheel up and see if there is play in the up and down motion-if so then get new control arm. You may also have the tires road force balanced as this is more specific to balancing the tire with load and can solve some issues.


As for transmission, it is a common misconception about the transmission likely due to marketing material distributed early on. If you check EPC, you will see that the part number for the transmission, the clutches, the valve body, the solenoids, the drives, the planetary, pump, even torque converter etc..... is all exactly the same for the 65 and 600. I have dissected a CL65 transmission (known donor) and a Cl600/S600 and can tell you there is absolutely no difference between the two. The transmission is specifically a 722.649. This has been verified by EPC, by actually personal inspection, and by discusssion with dealer who talked to Germany on my behalf. At the time I was curious about future buying rebuilt OEM transmission or other parts if needed). The difference in the 600 and 65 variant is the programming of the TCU.

If there was a problem with the trans, probably better just to get a used one from a low mileage car (again S600 or S65) as rebuilds by third parties can be iffy at best. Back when examining these issues, I called Sonnax, the leader in rebuild parts for the 722.6 Nag1 and when I told them what I had their answer was-get an OEM torque converter and an OEM valve body.

Best,

Welwynnick

OEM oil filter is Mann HU721/3

OEM air filter is Mann C25110-2

The dash numbers make a difference with Mann.

You can find all MB approved fluids here:

http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevoli...?language_id=1

Always use -40 engine oils with the V12TT, not -30 oils.

Nick

WikedV12

Thanks to everyone for the advice. Spent the weekend doing the "service B". Changed oil/filter, air filters, cabin filters and charcoal filters. Still need to do a brake flush. Does this car have any special requirements for that or can I just treat it like a normal car? Thanks again and I'm still enjoying this car immensely!!!

Welwynnick

On any car with ABS, I would avoid draining the brake fluid completely, and just do a lot of bleeding.

Do the same with the ABC (of course you can use the engine to bleed that!).

A turkey baster or oil extractor pump is invaluable.

Nick

Geraldius

Besides the B service interval there are a number of time-dependent services -- those that need to be done after so many years regardless of mileage.

WikedV12

MooksM75 and all,
I checked the car tonight and the whine sound is hardly noticeable at idle. However, it does get a little louder when you rev the car in park. It also does it when you drive. I did listen and the sound seems more prominent under the car towards the back behind the front wheels. I'm wondering if it is the pulsation dampner. Is there any test for this or just lift the car up and listen to it run while under the car?

Thanks again.

WikedV12

Forgot to mention that, knock on wood, the ABC suspension does not have any issues. The car can sit for weeks and it does not sag. The car also goes up and down with the button and handles great.

Thanks.

AMG-Driver

Hello Mooks, very interesting. I know there were some issues on some early M275 cars with high oil consumption. Also my SL600 needed more oil than normal. My SL65 / 2004 does not.

Can you explain why in theory the 8 total drainback holes are better than the 4 drainback hole design and how it affects the oil consumption?

Thank you!

Welwynnick

Yes. When the engine is cold, remove the poly-V belt and run the engine for a short time only.

You'll be amazed at how much quieter is anyway, but if it's the pulsation damper, the difference will be obvious inside with the doors shut.

BR, Nick

ItalianJoe1

The drainback holes in the piston were not enough, trapping excess oil between the rings and letting it get burned in the cylinder, instead of running back down into the crankcase. The oil consumption bulletins now apply to all cars and mention that if they meet certain criteria to change the pistons, but there is a note for the V12 to also replace the turbos, and that isn't the case on any of the other turbo engines. So I feel they were probably getting an equal number of turbos back with failing seals.

It all comes down to oil quality IMO, Benz is now speccing lighter and more efficient oils because they have to for emissions/fuel econ, and the high power, high boost, high rpm engines are eating through it. In general, a little oil consumption on an engine that's run hard is perfectly acceptable.

AMG-Driver

Thanks Joe,

according to the note for the V12 to replace some of the turbos, the reason from my knowledge was that the water cooling of some turbos was not perfectly sealed in some single cases.

Welwynnick

Please don't assume that because you're not aware of any issues with ABC that you don't need to do anything. You need to be pro-active about ABC.

I've learned a lot the hard way, and I've put it all in the thread in my signature, including essential preventative maintenance.

In short, you need to change the ABC oil and filter every 3 years, and you need to inspect EVERY ABC flexible hose for seeping every year, and replace anything that isn't dry.

Nick

MooksM275

Sure no problem. These drain back holes in the pistons are designed to allow oil to drain efficiently out of the oil ring, especially important when the engine is turned off and the hot oil is stuck in the ring land area. By having more holes, (8 instead of 4/i.e. 4 on each side instead of 2), oil can drain faster which tends to keep it from coking inside the ring land area). If you search around a little, you can see that people (on various cars) actually modify pistons by drilling more drain back holes to help with this very issue. So in theory, as the ring lands collect more and more coked oil/sludge/burnt oil they begin to lose efficiency and in effect burn more oil. The effectiveness of the ring to keep tension on the wall is reduced. The most dangerous moments for this coking on the rings is when the car is shut off as the oil is no longer circulating and the hot oil is stuck in the ring land. The drain back holes get this oil out and save it from coking.

As for oil consumption on newer benzes in general, Mercedes is using ultra low tension rings in order to increase efficiency as well as decreasing the thickness of the rings in general. With ultra low tension rings, you get some consumption. On the 65, the rings are ulta ultra thin as well. If you compare the 65 ring to other vehicles you will see what I mean. The 65 has a smaller oil control ring than a 600 for the 275.

Our pistons rings are as follows:
Top: 1.2 mm (same as m275.950)
Middle: 1.0 mm (compare to 1.5 mm on m275.950)
Oil ring 2.0 mm (compare to 2.5 mm on m275.950)

Another potential for consumption is the initial seating of the piston rings on the alusil block. I am quite sure that there are variations in consumption related to variations in break-in techniques. Consumption on our the 65 is not necessarily any sign of a problem so long as it is within reason. This is why you see Mercedes officially setting limits on consumption to be within specification. This type of consumption is in line with modern ultra thin ultra low tension rings as well.

The key on ultra low tension rings and thin rings is to keep them clean. Oil coking in our 2.0 mm oil control ring is no good and a reason to try and let the engine cool before shutting down after hard running. This is what turbo timers were made for in the old days.

Best

MooksM275

What Welwynnick said is absolutely true on ABC. People just do not inspect their hoses enough. It would obviously be easier too just change all the hoses after a certain number of years (which is what is done in the hydraulic industry), but this is just not economical. The best you can do is to periodically inspect the hoses and system in general and any signs of leaks must be addressed. I make it easy by inspecting during oil changes etc. Takes a few more minutes but keeps the system healthy.

One in particular I would recommend is to change the PCV accumulator at front of drivers valve cover. There is a diaphragm inside which gets brittle over time and cracks/doesn't work at all. The proper functioning of a PCV is important to the health of the engine in general as it helps with excess crankcase pressure.
The part you need is: A2750100291. When I changed mine at 80k, the diaphragm was like a rock and definitely was not working as it should. Make sure that all the 1-way valves are functioning correctly as well.

Another I would say to have on hand is the pressure hose clamps for the intercooler piping as they break over time and you do not want to have one break during service only to have to order from Mercedes and wait a few days. If you have to take the intercoolers up or move any pipes, I recommend you have these on hand. Part you need is: A0069972690 (x 4)



Best,

Welwynnick

+1

Two of the standard mods I do on V12TT's is actually replace the jubilee clips with T-bolt clamps, and fit the M137 throttle body gasket (82mm ID). The M275 gasket is too small (74mm) for the throttle body , which is 80mm. Use P/N A1371410780. Many thanks to Mooks for that one.....

Other little things off the top of my head:

Lots of blue paper rolls.
Clean set of funnels.
Mirror on a stick.
Magnet on a stick.
OBD2 code reader
Buy MB WIS and EPC on DVD and load on your PC.
USB-rechargeable LED head torch.
Transmission oil dipstick.
Set of E-torx ratchet wrenches.
Oil extractor pump.
74mm 14-point engine oil filter wrench.
Replace the Allen key drain plug on the transmission with a hex bolt.
If you take a wheel off for any reason, drain some dirty ABC oil from the bleed port if it hasn't already seized up, and fit a new bleed nipple.
If you take a wheel off for any reason, give the so-called ABC quick release connector a quick lube and twist, if it hasn't already seized up.
If you take a wheel off for any reason, check the link between the ABC level sensor and wishbone hasn't seized.


Nick

MooksM275

No test for it (the pulsation damper) except for diagnosing using the noise as a guide. If it does make sound in park when revving, you can use mechanic stethoscope (fairly cheap) and zero in on it. If you lace it directly on the pressure regulator sphere while someone revs it (do not rev too much), then you should know right away. If I were a betting man, I would say that it looks like it is probably going to be the pulsation damper sphere on the pressure regulator. Location is right behind front passenger wheel and the symptoms are in line with your issue.

If it is not coming from there, then use the stethoscope go to work.
You are lucky the sound is there at park in neutral as not likely going to be transmission pump given the symptoms.

Best,

WikedV12

Thanks to everyone for all the helpful comments and guidance on issues to look for. When I changed the oil I noticed that the under side of the car was very clean with no leaks. The one issue I did notice was a sticky residue right under the radiator on the bottom of the plastic cover. It looked like oil from a hose that runs from one side to the other that I could see through this cover. Based on some reading I've been doing it seems to be an ABC line. The weird thing was that the oil was so thick and tacky that it would not wipe off. I tried wiping it off the line and cover but again, it was almost like glue. There were no obvious drips, just this sticky mess. Is this something specific to the ABC fluid.

Also, how often does everyone change spark plugs? What about the coolant? I've got no history on the car, so I don't know when they've been done. I did change the oil/filter, air filters, all 4 cabin filters, the brakes look good, the fluid has been flushed and the belt looks good. I need to order the parts MooksM275 and Welwynnick recommended. What is the best source for these parts? For the throttle body gasket, is this just for performance? Does it make a difference?

Thanks again to everyone for their help and guidance on these amazing cars!!

ItalianJoe1

Yes the ABC fluid leaves a sticky residue, it's nasty stuff.

MooksM275

When the ABC lines "sweat", the fluid slowly leaks and then "drys" to a sticky residue like you describe. You can use a good steam cleaner to clean as this will heat the hydraulic fluid and make easier to remove. With the location you describe, be very thorough in inspecting all the lines in the front of the engine. The hose you mention is likely the hose for the front passenger strut.Up above the sub-frame and kind of under is the main pressure line and the pulsation line. Make sure to inspect these as when these go, that is when you lose a ABC pump.
Take these leaks seriously as Welwynnick said as it is a sign that the hose is beginning to lose integrity.

You can take a plug out to examine but I do not believe that you would have original plugs given your miles (but you never know). Plugs like to be done at around 60k miles on this car. You can read the date code on the ignition coils which will give you an idea if you are living on borrowed time. (first two numbers are year and the W for week exampe 13W32 which would be 2013 week 32).

One item that is becoming more of a problem these days on all cars is injectors sticking open causing hydro-lock. Its not super common but it does happen. Cases on M5 M6 and has happened on AMG's as well (one member with 200k miles Cl65 had it happen). From discussions with injector companies, it seems that the new blended fuels with ethanol are more corrosive to injector parts. Also risky when cars sit for longer periods, i.e. non-daily drivers, as the fuel can dry and gunk and then stick in the pintle of the injector causing the injector to be wide open. I sent my injectors to be cleaned and flow tested (RC Engineering) and when I had them out, the intake screens on the injectors were not in great shape meaning corrosion. Given the expense of the engine on this car and the age, you may consider sending yours out or have them done locally if you find a good shop near you. They flow test and document the flow to make sure all injectors are calibrated and within spec. In my opinion, cheap insurance for this car at $24 per injector. That price includes new o rings, new filter on injector, and new pintle caps.

Parts sources can vary depending on timing and the part--FCPeuro does lifetime warranty which is great for certain parts, RMeuropean has very fast shipping and great prices as does Europarts and Autohausaz. But, some parts still need to be genuine and if you can get a good relationship with a dealer, that will help a lot. Prices at MBFM parts for example mirror my pricing from the dealer but I do not pay shipping from dealer. My pricing for original Mercedes tools is way way lower than list as well.

Best first move is to get subscription to EPC Startek https: //epc.startekinfo.com/epc/ Price is $75 per year and you get the exact updated dealer level software for searching part diagrams and getting the right number for everything. I even use it when I work on the car as I can verify the exact bolt length that goes in each location, then I just use a caliper gauge to check for fitment. No need to keep bolts sorted during projects. Just input your vin and away you go. I prefer it to downloaded software as it is updated and does not require large space on a hard drive or a CD.

Best

WikedV12

The website you mentioned, what is it for? Is it a place to check parts or is it an online manual for repairing the cars? Either way, it looks cool.

Another issue I've noticed is that the driver side rear of the car is settling more than the rest of the car after about 3 days of not driving. It lifts up and levels out when you start the car. I don't see any leaks. Would this be a case for an ABC flush or a valve body rebuild? Also, Welwynnick mentioned that I should remove the wheels and bleed each shock and also pull off the quick connectors for the hydraulics and clean/lube them. Will this cause air to get in the lines? Any specific grease to use on the quick connects? How much fluid should I bleed out? Sorry for all the questions but I can't find any repair/maintenance manuals any where.

Thanks.

ItalianJoe1

Settling is normal, within reason. I notice my right rear dropping after the car is parked for 7-10 days, if it's less I can't tell, but sometimes feel the car jump back to normal height as I pull out of the parking spot. It's a sign of slight internal leakage of the valve block, which can be left alone as long as it pumps up and works normally, or you can attempt a flush/rodeo which may move the debris around in there (has helped me before), or reseal/replace the block. The strut bleeding is to remove the fluid in them that never comes out, they work like a balloon, there is no throughput of fluid, only fill and drain from the same port, so some crud always remains. If you open the bleeder and compress the strut you can get some of the fluid that won't get flushed out and let new fluid replace it. The more you can replace, the better. The quick connects are like air line fittings, any simple oil or grease will help, they are normally in pretty bad shape as they are exposed to the elements and can get quite cruddy in there.

Welwynnick

There are two different rules for ABC bleeding.

1. If the pump has been replaced or is dry for any reason, then it needs careful bleeding. It's not enough to just fill the reservoir and start the engine. That will not work, and will kill the pump. You have to fill the reservoir and then pump a few psi of air in the reservoir, in order to force oil into the pump for the initial start-up.

2. If you disconnect a strut, pipe or valve block for any reason, there's no particular bleeding to do. The system will squeak at first start-up, and you'll need to top up the reservoir, that's all.

It's imperative that the reservoir never runs dry. Equally, don't over-fill it, because it will just come straight back out. The level goes up and down quite a bit during normal operation, according to the height of the suspension, the load in the car, and whether the accumulators are charged or not.

There are no manuals for all this. MB say no maintenance, and they are so wrong. This is the best information you've got:

http://mercedes-abc-drive-carefully.blogspot.co.uk/
https://mbworld.org/forums/cl55-amg-...ce-repair.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w...2003-s600.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/m275-v12-...on-thread.html

Nick