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Thanks Rocman8 - I do trust the advice I have been given here over anything the service reps or even techs there tell me. This has obviously turned into a much bigger situation than I expected when the car originally went in on December 8th. I will continue to document the progress and outcome here hoping this post might help others in the future.
I used to have a trusted service rep at this location but he moved to a different location that is across town and too far away. I don't know if this is just happening at my dealership but it seems my dealership does not want to actually speak to service customers anymore, all communication is done by text or email. If I call the phone is never answered but goes to voicemail, however the last few times I have been in the service rep area I noticed I never heard a phone ring. Even payments can now be made in advance online. Maybe this is how things work now but sometimes you need to be able to speak to an actual person.
The new service reps are not like the old ones. Less than a year ago I went in for new spark plugs and was advised I needed a new battery. My service rep that day was a young girl who was obviously new, I told her I always keep my old parts and I wanted them put in the trunk when they were removed. When she informed me about the battery I renminded her I wanted my old parts put in the trunk. She said in the trunk and sounded confused, I said yes in the trunk. I get a text the car is ready and go pick it up, check the trunk and there are the parts and head home. It is getting dark already when I go to the car to put the old parts in the garage. I'm not paying too close attention but I pick up the battery and think this looks really clean, I don't bother to check out the spark plugs but notice they were put back in the new box. That night I kept thinking how good my old battery looked and went to bed still puzzled by it. The next morning I was still thinking about that battery, and then the light bulb went on...could that really be the new battery? No, how could that be? Well, it was the new battery and the new spark plugs. I looked closer at the invoice and sure enough I was not charged for labor, just parts. It was easier to install them myself than go back and deal with that service rep again. How a simple request for the old parts be put in my trunk got translated to don't install the new parts but put them in the trunk is beyond me. Is it that unusual to ask for your old parts?
Unusual no. Uncommon yes. At least they didn't charge the labor for it haha. They must have charged you the core for the old battery though.
That's the future of the dealerships being pushed by the factory. Email, text, pay ahead of time. They just want the service reps to write, write, write more work and not actually take the time with the customer to build a relationship. They are all paid on gross sales, survey scores, and loaner car usage which is a reason they have huge turnover.
Unusual no. Uncommon yes. At least they didn't charge the labor for it haha. They must have charged you the core for the old battery though.
That's the future of the dealerships being pushed by the factory. Email, text, pay ahead of time. They just want the service reps to write, write, write more work and not actually take the time with the customer to build a relationship. They are all paid on gross sales, survey scores, and loaner car usage which is a reason they have huge turnover.
If she knew what she was doing I would have been charged a core charge but she didn't and I wasn't. I'm glad now that I replaced it especially with all this going on but it was working fine at the time but was about 5 years old. I'm sure it still had some life left, I gave it away on Craigslist to somebody who needed a battery. I haven't had time to check out my old fuel pump and SAM yet. Wonder what I will find?
Asking for the second key? Really? These guys are idiots! If the key turns in the EIS and releases the ESL (steering column lock) each time it's inserted, then it's not the key! If they key were flaky, it is possible that it might flake out right as the engine is starting and shut it down, but it would be flaky enough that it also would not always work in the EIS.
Are they paying for a loaner for you? If not, demand that. Also, it may be time to call MBUSA customer service and file a complaint. But, before doing that, call to request a face-to-face with the service manager and discuss all this with him/her. If that doesn't work out, then go to MBUSA. They probably won't help, but they will call the delaership to let them know you complained and that might get some traction.
Asking for the second key? Really? These guys are idiots! If the key turns in the EIS and releases the ESL (steering column lock) each time it's inserted, then it's not the key! If they key were flaky, it is possible that it might flake out right as the engine is starting and shut it down, but it would be flaky enough that it also would not always work in the EIS.
Are they paying for a loaner for you? If not, demand that. Also, it may be time to call MBUSA customer service and file a complaint. But, before doing that, call to request a face-to-face with the service manager and discuss all this with him/her. If that doesn't work out, then go to MBUSA. They probably won't help, but they will call the delaership to let them know you complained and that might get some traction.
I did try the spare key at home when the car wouldn't start the first time, it still wouldn't start. I told them that but they wanted the spare key so I delivered it. That's when the other SA chimed in about how a bad CPS will throw a code. I said ok and left.
I do have a loaner, I'm on my second one. I will see what happens in the next couple of work days and then follow your advice. There is still the issue of the kid from Roadside Assistance who tried to jump it the first time with live cables and possibly had them on the wrong terminals to boot.
mine wasnt in half as long as this and I got a 2016 GLE for the whole time. I called MBUSA and they contacted the gm of the location (probably why they gave me the GLE)
mine wasnt in half as long as this and I got a 2016 GLE for the whole time. I called MBUSA and they contacted the gm of the location (probably why they gave me the GLE)
I was given a new C300, I am not impressed. It rides incredibly rough and the stop/start engine technology is unsettling to say the least. And when did mirrors start having to fold in each time the car is locked or unlocked? Granted, I had folding mirrors on my 1997 S500 but I could turn them off and they stayed in one place. Even back then those mirrors were expensive to replace, probably a lot more now with warning sensors, lights, etc. I can only remember very few times that I felt the need to fold them up even on such a big car.
Both the folding mirrors and start/stop can be disabled. I like the folding mirror feature. I had it on my ML (though it was not automatic) and I used it all the time in my garage to keep my wife from knocking it off with her car door when parked next to me. I wish my SL had it - apparently, on my model, it's available in Canada, but not in the USA.
I was in Las Vegas last year and rented a GL with the start-stop feature. It was not horribly annoying except trying to deal with heavy traffic. You know - the kind where you need to stay glued to the bumper ahead of you lest some jerk whip over into any space you leave. I had to turn it off.
Both the folding mirrors and start/stop can be disabled. I like the folding mirror feature. I had it on my ML (though it was not automatic) and I used it all the time in my garage to keep my wife from knocking it off with her car door when parked next to me. I wish my SL had it - apparently, on my model, it's available in Canada, but not in the USA.
I was in Las Vegas last year and rented a GL with the start-stop feature. It was not horribly annoying except trying to deal with heavy traffic. You know - the kind where you need to stay glued to the bumper ahead of you lest some jerk whip over into any space you leave. I had to turn it off.
I do live close to downtown Dallas so most of my driving is stoplight after stoplight. It can really jerk the car when it turns back on sometimes, I'm glad to hear it can be disabled, I am buying a new vehicle this year. The mirrors on my old car had a switch that could fold them when needed, that makes more sense to me, at least it gave me the option. I'm thinking with the mirrors folding and unfolding every time the car is locked or unlocked their lifespan is probably going to wear out right around the time the warranty does.
Both my CLKs had auto fold mirrors. 2005 and late 2006 cars. Never had a mirror replaced and they fold & unfold after every lock and unlock.
For me it's a very good feature. Our parking spaces are tiny over here in the UK. I have to parallel park on streets where traffic can be tight...
They're also very useful to know if the car is locked, did I lock it or forget? Check the mirrors...
I had one issue where a wire wore through a little, which soldered fine and was easy to repair.
Both my CLKs had auto fold mirrors. 2005 and late 2006 cars. Never had a mirror replaced and they fold & unfold after every lock and unlock.
For me it's a very good feature. Our parking spaces are tiny over here in the UK. I have to parallel park on streets where traffic can be tight...
They're also very useful to know if the car is locked, did I lock it or forget? Check the mirrors...
I had one issue where a wire wore through a little, which soldered fine and was easy to repair.
So I really wouldn't worry about the longevity.
Hi Sailorben - Its always good to get other points of view, I might have to rethink my view of those mirrors. I did use your trick today to see if the car was locked by looking at the mirrors. I live in the land of large trucks and SUV's, so we have pretty decent sized parking spaces. However, with a few new developments I have noticed the parking spaces are getting smaller so maybe another reason to start liking them. Good to hear yours were so reliable. I tend to keep my cars 8-10 years, but maybe that is not a good idea anymore.
this thread is getting really sad, have you called MBUSA yet??
I have been traveling during the week so have not had a chance to contact the dealership or MBUSA. However, it is stressful worrying about this car. I don't understand the dealerships motivation to delay the repair. Maybe it is the tech? I am going to take Rodney's advice and meet with the shop manager and my SA soon. The car first went in on December 8th. I had it back for less than 24 hours before it went back in during that time. This is the largest Mercedes dealer in Dallas. I have never had an experience like this before and I've been buying these cars for 30+ years.
Update: Two days ago requested a meeting with SA and repair shop Forman. Shop Forman was very helpful and said he would find out what was wrong with my car, he said he would be driving it until it wouldn't start again, not letting it sit in a mechanics bay and every so often attempting to start it. He showed me diagnostic schematic print outs that supposedly came from the tech. He pointed out where the diagnostic test showed the bad relay/fuse in the SAM and that is what the tech based that replacement on. He also showed how the fuel pump was diagnosed as being "seized" by using the same type of schematic diagram. I really did not understand the meaning of the diagrams, but could understand at least that it could possibly show a fuse or relay being defective.
I brought up the subject of the CPS sensor and he told me that if that sensor was not working that it would definitely show up on their diagnostic equipment. He went on to say that is one of the first things they look for because it is an easy and common fix. I said ok, but would it show up if the car was not starting at the time? He said it would. Again, I don't know enough about the mechanics of the car to argue with him.
He seems interested in solving this issue, so now I have an actual person to speak with who is taking responsibility for fixing this issue. I feel good about that. I was beginning to lose faith in this whole process. February 8th will be the 60th day my car has been in the shop, starting most of the time but occasionally not starting.
The shop Forman was not informed and surprised by the fact that I had the old fuel pump and SAM unit. He asked if he could get those back. The subject came up when I asked what did I get for the $2000 I have already paid? I paid for a new fuel pump and SAM but the car still doesn't start sometimes, which is the reason it was sent there in the first place. Until this issue has been resolved I don't feel comfortable giving back these old parts. I would like to have them tested just to make sure they were defective in the first place.
Thanks for everybody's input on this matter, and especially to those who suggested I meet with the shop Forman. If anyone else is having an issue with a repair made at a dealership, and is caught in limbo between your Service Advisor and a never seen "tech/mechanic" meeting in person with the shop Forman is a good next step. My dealership prefers to communicate by text, email, and phone, and in that order. Not a business model I like but that's the way it is now. However, if you have an ongoing issue I would suggest an in person meeting with the shop Forman.
I will keep everybody posted on what happens next until this issue is resolved. After all, what good is a car that "sometimes" starts?
Here's the problem I have with this. Today's cars and their diagnostics tools (i.e. SDS) are so sophisticated, that 95% of the time, solving a problem is a simple matter of scanning for codes, then following the instructions. It's the other 5% of the time that takes some real skills and experience to resolve the issue. And this is where many shops fail, especially dealers.
I just checked all the diagnostics steps in SDS for "engine does not start" and guess what? There is ZERO mention of the CPS! Also, the fault code triggered by a defective CPS will only occur when the engine is running, not during cranking. Also, the tests for the CPS all state "start engine" before continuing. Hmmm...
Here's the problem I have with this. Today's cars and their diagnostics tools (i.e. SDS) are so sophisticated, that 95% of the time, solving a problem is a simple matter of scanning for codes, then following the instructions. It's the other 5% of the time that takes some real skills and experience to resolve the issue. And this is where many shops fail, especially dealers.
I just checked all the diagnostics steps in SDS for "engine does not start" and guess what? There is ZERO mention of the CPS! Also, the fault code triggered by a defective CPS will only occur when the engine is running, not during cranking. Also, the tests for the CPS all state "start engine" before continuing. Hmmm...
Thanks for that info Rodney. When the car is not starting would attaching a fuel pressure gauge to the outlet on the fuel rail give any answers? If the CPS malfunctions could that shut off the fuel pump and thus register on the pressure gauge? Is there different fuel pressures during cranking and when the engine is running? From the first day this happened it sure seemed like the engine was simply not getting fuel. No smell of gasoline from the engine at all no matter how much I pumped the gas pedal. I don't know exactly what the CPS does except shut off the fuel pump, does it work by sending a signal to shut off the power to the fuel pump? If it is the CPS I'm trying to figure out a way to be able to determine a mechanical test to see if it is the CPS by bypassing the diagnostics which aren't able to test the CPS anyway when the car won't start. Or is it possible to prime the engine with starter fluid or gasoline to see if it would at least run for a few seconds? I've done that with smaller engines but never a car engine.
The CPS tells the ECU that the engine is rotating, and it also registers its angular position. It does this by reading a pattern of holes on the outer rim of the flywheel. There is a series of holes all the way around then one extra-long hole to denote the 0-degree position:
The ECU needs to know the angle of the crankshaft for timing purposes. But also, as it continues to receive pulses from the CPS, it knows the engine is still rotating. As a safety feature, if the ECU detects that the engine has stopped rotating, by a lack of signals from the CPS, it will shut off the fuel pump.
Wen you first switch on the ignition to position 2, the fuel pump engages momentarily and pressurizes the system. You should be able to check this at the Schrader valve on the fuel rail. No pressure and there is a problem with the fuel pump o power supply to the pump (or possibly a clogged fuel line).
Now, I am not sure about this next step, but it's what I believe happens...Once the starter is engaged, as long as the CPS sends a signal to the ECU that the engine is rotating, the fuel pump is engaged. If not, then it could be a CPS problem, but it could also be a fuel pump problem.
With SDS, I believe engine RPM can be checked during cranking. If there is no RPM reading, then its definitely the CPS.
The CPS tells the ECU that the engine is rotating, and it also registers its angular position. It does this by reading a pattern of holes on the outer rim of the flywheel. There is a series of holes all the way around then one extra-long hole to denote the 0-degree position:
The ECU needs to know the angle of the crankshaft for timing purposes. But also, as it continues to receive pulses from the CPS, it knows the engine is still rotating. As a safety feature, if the ECU detects that the engine has stopped rotating, by a lack of signals from the CPS, it will shut off the fuel pump.
Wen you first switch on the ignition to position 2, the fuel pump engages momentarily and pressurizes the system. You should be able to check this at the Schrader valve on the fuel rail. No pressure and there is a problem with the fuel pump o power supply to the pump (or possibly a clogged fuel line).
Now, I am not sure about this next step, but it's what I believe happens...Once the starter is engaged, as long as the CPS sends a signal to the ECU that the engine is rotating, the fuel pump is engaged. If not, then it could be a CPS problem, but it could also be a fuel pump problem.
With SDS, I believe engine RPM can be checked during cranking. If there is no RPM reading, then its definitely the CPS.
Great info Rodney, many thanks! Nice pic also, it helps to have a visual of the actual parts. I will ask the shop foreman to check SDS readings during cranking and fuel pressure the next time it won't start. If the CPS is intermittently failing this would explain everything that is happening. Keeping my fingers crossed! At this point I'm not even sure they would admit it was a faulty CPS even if they discovered that was the problem.
Sorry for being MIA everybody, let me bring you up to date. First I will fess up to the dumbest thing I have ever done in a car. The first time I brought this car home after it was supposedly fixed but would not start the next day, I called Roadside Assistance to tow it back to the shop. Just like during the first tow, the tow driver that showed up could not have been older than 20. My car was parked in my driveway which slants back toward the road so I told the kid I would roll my car back down my drive and into the street and then he could back his flat bed to my car and load it. He goes back to his truck to turn it around and I get in my car with the door open to use one foot to get my car rolling. So far so good. However, at the end of my driveway I have large landscaping boulders to keep people from pulling in my drive and running over my grass and breaking my sprinklers. My street is a dead-end and my driveway is the first one on the left as you pull into my street so 99% of people who turn on my street and then realize it is not a through street pull in my driveway to turn around, hence the boulders.
Let me stop here with some good advice learned the hard way, never move your car with any open doors.
So as you all have probably figured out by now my open door caught the boulder. The boulder won. Also, the W209's have really long doors. So by the time I got the car stopped my door had a huge crease in it and would not even come close to closing. The kid was actually going to haul the car with the door hanging open, when I asked where his ropes or straps were he said he didn't have any. I supplied my own rope and tied the door to the headrest, it was at least a foot from closing. This happened on December 29, I have been too embarrassed to own up to my stupid mistake before now, but hey, I'm older now and have matured some. (That was a joke, btw.)
The dealership continued to try to diagnose the starting problem with the creased door, but when I got the shop Forman involved he said he needed to personally drive the car to help diagnose the problem, that was 6 weeks ago and the car went to the dealerships body shop for the door repair. Just got it fixed and the car went straight back to the dealership yesterday. In fact I didn't even see the car after the body work was done. I was informed the day it was ready for a final detail at the body shop the car wouldn't start. So it still has a starting issue, and at least one not starting verified by the body shop.
So now the car is back with the shop foreman and he is personally driving and diagnosing the car himself. The first time the car would not start was December 6, 2016, and other than a new door, hinges, paint, and miscellaneous parts, I have also purchased a new fuel pump and rear SAM. Those last two items did not fix the problem. So will keep you updated as to what I hear next.
Btw, when this problem first surfaced I went back years on this site searching for similar issues, didn't find anything that specifically matched, but did run across an old post about other members self-proclaimed "bone-headed moves" that they accomplished with their cars, it was very entertaining to read and also made me feel slightly less stupid. So thanks to all the others who fessed up also, and add me to the list.
Hope everybody else is enjoying driving with the top down! Take care - Mike.
Mike, I am sorry to hear about the door vs. boulder incident. I know that must have been a pretty bad moment. Stuff like that always is, but later, we look back and laugh. Like the time I busted my ML's windshield with really long lumber or the CLK's when the wiper blade broke off in my hand.
I just thought of something here, and it's sort of a long shot, but...your engine, being an M272 in a MY2006, is definitely int he range for balance shaft failure. Was this ever a problem that was repaired? If you aren't the original owner, get the shop to pull a VMI and find out for you. If it was repaired, it's possible that they damaged the flywheel (technically called the "flex plate") during engine re-installation. Since this has the timing marks (see my photo in post #69 above), if it is slightly bent, it could cause CPS-like problems. Like a said, a long shot, but just a thought.
Mike, I am sorry to hear about the door vs. boulder incident. I know that must have been a pretty bad moment. Stuff like that always is, but later, we look back and laugh. Like the time I busted my ML's windshield with really long lumber or the CLK's when the wiper blade broke off in my hand.
I just thought of something here, and it's sort of a long shot, but...your engine, being an M272 in a MY2006, is definitely int he range for balance shaft failure. Was this ever a problem that was repaired? If you aren't the original owner, get the shop to pull a VMI and find out for you. If it was repaired, it's possible that they damaged the flywheel (technically called the "flex plate") during engine re-installation. Since this has the timing marks (see my photo in post #69 above), if it is slightly bent, it could cause CPS-like problems. Like a said, a long shot, but just a thought.
Hi Rodney, I remembered your windshield story from the original post. It has made me think the couple of times since when I have had to haul anything long enough to reach the dash. This is not an issue in the CLK but I did have a SUV rental from the body shop and had to haul a 4" piece of PVC pipe that had to rest on the dash, I thought about your story as I was loading the pipe. Anytime I ever have to haul anything like that I will remember your story. I'm sure you have saved a few others who read that the same fate. That is definitely one of those "who would have thought" and learned the hard way experiences. A staple of all things, like I said, who would have thought?
I am the original owner and have never had any of the balance shaft issues, knock on wood. Other than service notices the car has never thrown a code. When it was about a year old the transmission began shifting improperly, the dealership kept it about a month and ended up replacing the transmission completely. The cost was covered under warranty, and I have the receipt in stored files, but if I remember correctly the total cost of replacing the transmission was between $4000-$5000 in 2007. But as it was under warranty my cost was $0. That has been the only big issue with the car other than a few wear and tear items and service parts. It has never not started before this issue showed up.
I appreciate that information though, in fact when this first happened I asked if this sudden, intermittent non-starting could be related to the balance shaft issue. Of course I was told no and given the spark, fuel, and air theory and was told they would figure it out, no problem. Safe to say we are beyond that theory. But the shop forman is driving it now so at least I have hope he will get to the bottom of the problem. Especially when he gets stranded, lol. They gave me another C300 to drive, and despite this car and the last C300 they gave me to drive both being MY2017, this one handles and rides remarkably better. However, after driving the body shop rental, a 2016 Cadillac SRX, for six weeks maybe that is why I appreciate the C300 more. That SUV drove and handled like a big, heavy truck. It was fun for a couple of days, lots of room and you do sit up high, but the novelty wore off, especially dealing with the touch-screen dash. Give me knobs any day.
Will definitely keep everybody updated on what happens next. Take care - Mike.
Balance shaft problems would not cause a no-start. Well, not until it got so bad that the engine was ruined beyond repair, and obviously that's not the case here. However, the fact that the transmission was replaced gives me the same concern I had about the balance shaft repair. When re-mating the transmission and engine, the flywheel (and possibly the transmission fluid pump) can be damaged if everything is not properly aligned.
The way this works is that the torque converts just sits in the fluid pump. The shaft of the converter mates to the pump with two notches that align with two square pins on the inside of the pump. It's impossible to properly align this with the assembly sitting horizontal; it has to be done with the transmission on end, vertically dropping the converter shaft into the pump housing. The alignment of the pins and notches is a tight machined fit, so it has to be a perfect connection, or the torque converter will not be fully inserted:
Even with it perfectly seated, moving the transmission into the horizontal position and maneuvering it under the car can cause the torque converter to slid out of place. When the two halves of the bell housing are mated, if everything is in place, it's a glove fit - the torque converter flanges just touch the flywheel, and the bell housing's machined surfaces just touch. If there is any gap, there is an issue. The problem is created when the tech thinks it's "close enough" and "I'll just pull it all together with the bell housing bolts". What happens is that excessive pressure is placed on the flywheel and it can bend or even crack. When the engine is started, the torque converter notches will "snap" into place in the pins on the pump, but the damage is already done. In fact, the additional pressure can damage the fluid pump, too.
This happened to my CLK550 when my dealer pulled the engine for the "balance shaft" (actually, just an idler sprocket on the V8) repair. It damaged the sleeve bearing on the fluid pump, causing excessive whine, and cracked the flywheel. The whining appeared almost immediately, but the cracked flywheel didn't cause problems for several years when a piece broke off and started scraping the bell housing. And it also caused it to get slightly out of time - I was getting this odd error about a bad camshaft adjuster, but it was because the CPS was firing late.
So, have you noticed any odd noises at idle? Excessive whining or even scraping sounds?
01-12-2017, 03:14 PM
