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Post valeo radiator change - new oil turned brown after a few days
Hey all,
Last week, I changed my old Valeo radiator to a Behr. I believe I had the problem with coolant getting in tranny after it stopped working on me, at a light as well as being low on coolant.
I swapped the radiator and had ordered 12 liters of Fuchs Titan 134 ATF.
I dropped the pan, changed filter and gasket, and added 4 liters back, then proceeded to do the flush. The oil came out of the pan and tranny black, but not emulsified. I do believe there was some coolant in it, though as dried oil from the dipstick, on a paper towel left a green color.
I went through all 12 liters of ATF, flushing till I had red fluid coming out. I then drove it for a bit to warm up, and it drove just fine. No issues shifting, at all.
After the drive and warm up, I checked my level, and I was a little bit low. Not being able to find Fuchs around here, I did a little research and found that the Valvoline Maxlife synthetic could be used. I added 1 quart, and rechecked, and it appeared to be ok.
Cut to a few days later, the car started to bobble the RPM a bit around shifts, and the 3-4 shift will hunt RPM a little, then a brief groan, then settles into what appears to be the TC lockup. It's not real bad, but it does get slightly weird at some of the shifts (occasionally the 2-3 and 3-4).
I drove the car today for a warmup, then checked my tranny oil for proper level. It was a little high, a few MM over the top line for 80c, but the brand new red fluid is brownish (as if emulsified).
I let the car cool, then checked my coolant level, and it's still exactly where I filled it to initially, so I know the new radiator is fine.
If I let the dipstick sit for a few minutes, some of the brown goes away (maybe the oil is aerated?).
Think I may have overfilled, and that's giving me issues? If I just suck a little out to achieve the proper level, and the oil does happen to be aerated, will the oil resolve itself?
I am confused, first you say you were full, then you felt you were low and added a quart, now you think that you are over full---have you ever thought of doing the job correctly(measure the level at 80 C)
I felt it was originally full, due to being just at the lower 80c mark when warmed up. I didn't have a means to measure the pan temp, so o waited until the engine was up to 80c for a bit, to allow thermal transfer to the tranny oil via the cooler.
However after the initial drive, I re-measured and I was just below the 80c mark.
Between 4 ML's and my wifes 04 CLK500 I have flushed the 722.6 trans 8 or 9 times. Not once have the measured fluid out matched the measured fluid in
to get to the correct level.
To do it correctly you must check the temp. and use a good service dipstick for the 722.6 trans.
I am concerned that your fluid is contaminated, if it was me, I would have a oil sample test done, so the trans is not ruined. Otherwise its hard to tell without being there.
I checked the star bulletin # P-B-27.55/50f and the Mercedes test is on the ATF. So the dealer should be able to test your fluid, or maybe sell you a test vial for the .5ml of ATF for the test.
So if that is easier for you, you could try the Dealer.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
How many Kms/miles did the tranny do on the old fluid? If you allow a few drops of fluid from the dipstick to stand on glass for an hour does that hazyness clear? If so it is entrained air. Put a few drops of oil in a teaspoon & heat with a cigarette lighter. If the fluid crackles it has coolant/water in it.
If the fluid has not been changed for a long time the discoloration is normal. The flushing procedure on the 722.6 does not clear the torque converter completely because the damn bean counters removed the TC drainplug. New converters now have them again.
I am confused, first you say you were full, then you felt you were low and added a quart, now you think that you are over full---have you ever thought of doing the job correctly(measure the level at 80 C)
80C? Is it higher for that tranny? That's 176 F. The 722.9 is 113 F. To the OP, that fluid is not aerated. That fluid is seriously contaminated.
BTW Valvoline Maxlife synthetic is not approved. Valvoline ATF Pro 236.14 is.
Maxlife has slightly higher viscosity. In some old training pdfs, maxlife was listed as an alternative atf. If it is coolant contamination and without a tc plug, is there an easy way to clean it out?
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 03-14-2017 at 08:45 AM.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by dave2001auto
Maxlife has slightly higher viscosity. In some old training pdfs, maxlife was listed as an alternative atf. If it is coolant contamination and without a tc plug, is there an easy way to clean it out?
I'm not sure how long the car went on previous oil. I've only had it a few months, but noticed I was low on coolant (a quart, tops). Couldn't find the leak, then the next day, tranny stopped giving motion unless I let it sit for a few minutes (pretty sure it was low). Offer a few minutes, I could drive it again. Luckily, when this happened, I was a few blocks from home, so I was able to get it home quick.
Next day, ordered radiator, fluids, filter, gaskets, control arms (unrelated, but saw that the bushings are tearing).
Did the swap swap and flush. And all was good for a few days.
One thing that that I didn't think about at the time, I did drive through some high water the night it started groaning. Maybe 1-1.5 ft high (caught in a storm, and intersections fill up quickly around here). I've driven through the water before, but no issues. Do you think water may have found its way in, somehow? Seems a bit odd, as the case should be sealed, and there haven't been any leaks noticed since the flush.
Also, do you think the 1 quart of maxlife ATF could have done this?
Either way, I'll be doing another flush, to be safe. Any considerations I should keep in mind besides the fluid type?
I'm not sure how long the car went on previous oil. I've only had it a few months, but noticed I was low on coolant (a quart, tops). Couldn't find the leak, then the next day, tranny stopped giving motion unless I let it sit for a few minutes (pretty sure it was low). Offer a few minutes, I could drive it again. Luckily, when this happened, I was a few blocks from home, so I was able to get it home quick.
Next day, ordered radiator, fluids, filter, gaskets, control arms (unrelated, but saw that the bushings are tearing).
Did the swap swap and flush. And all was good for a few days.
One thing that that I didn't think about at the time, I did drive through some high water the night it started groaning. Maybe 1-1.5 ft high (caught in a storm, and intersections fill up quickly around here). I've driven through the water before, but no issues. Do you think water may have found its way in, somehow? Seems a bit odd, as the case should be sealed, and there haven't been any leaks noticed since the flush.
Also, do you think the 1 quart of maxlife ATF could have done this?
Either way, I'll be doing another flush, to be safe. Any considerations I should keep in mind besides the fluid type?
Thanks
Are there solids in the atf or accumulation on the filter? If yes, have it towed.
Water/coolant is more likely the issue. Many transmission parts are made of glued paper! Water weakens them. Friction bands, seals can start falling apart. May need a transmission remanufactured. Electronics may become damaged. I advise calling an honest and experienced transmission shop.
I had a copy of the training. It was a PowerPoint type presentation.
Water/coolant contamination is more likely the issue. The black color coolant reservoir doesn't help in detecting a leak.
Last edited by dave2001auto; 03-16-2017 at 07:49 AM.
Are there solids in the atf or accumulation on the filter? If yes, have it towed.
Water/coolant is more likely the issue. Many transmission parts are made of glued paper! Water weakens them. Friction bands, seals can start falling apart. May need a transmission remanufactured. Electronics may become damaged. I advise calling an honest and experienced transmission shop.
Uh, no glued paper parts int he MB transmissions. They use all metal gears, drums, hubs and bearing. They use metal clutch plates, and no bands. The material used for seals is the same as what is used in the engine, so coolant won't hurt any of this. But it does have different hydraulic qualities which can cause problems engaging the clutches and gears and can prevent the torque converter from transferring power correctly. Any damage done will by the hydraulic system being unable to proper moved the drums and gears, thus ruining gears and clutches.
Generally, draining, refilling and then doing a full flush or two is usually enough to fix things unless some physical damage is done. If you are really concerned, you could drop the transmission, pull the gearset and clean ti, and replace the torque converter. Most modern automatic transmissions are pretty much the same, so a good, quality transmission shop should be able to handle this. Just make sure to use a proper, MB-spec fluid.
Uh, no glued paper parts int he MB transmissions. They use all metal gears, drums, hubs and bearing. They use metal clutch plates, and no bands. The material used for seals is the same as what is used in the engine, so coolant won't hurt any of this. But it does have different hydraulic qualities which can cause problems engaging the clutches and gears and can prevent the torque converter from transferring power correctly. Any damage done will by the hydraulic system being unable to proper moved the drums and gears, thus ruining gears and clutches.
Generally, draining, refilling and then doing a full flush or two is usually enough to fix things unless some physical damage is done. If you are really concerned, you could drop the transmission, pull the gearset and clean ti, and replace the torque converter. Most modern automatic transmissions are pretty much the same, so a good, quality transmission shop should be able to handle this. Just make sure to use a proper, MB-spec fluid.
Thanks for the correction.
What goes bad in the torque converter with water?
What's causing the brown color in the ATF?
I've seen brown ATF in a new 1991 Nissan transmission. Was told that was from the plates.
Brown is just the result of particulate, most of which does come form the clutch plates wearing which is normal. However, it can also come from the torque converter or fluid pump bearing, which usually ends up being black rather than brown.
The torque converter can be damaged by coolant because it will cause "grabbing" of the clutches, resulting in premature wear. This can also happen with the transmission clutches, but they engaged less often than those in the torque converter, so it will take longer for that damage to occur.
I felt it was originally full, due to being just at the lower 80c mark when warmed up. I didn't have a means to measure the pan temp, so o waited until the engine was up to 80c for a bit, to allow thermal transfer to the tranny oil via the cooler.
However after the initial drive, I re-measured and I was just below the 80c mark.
The temp gauge in the car is measuring coolant temp -- not atf temperature
Best is with star
Second insulated constant
Third IR temp gun
Make sure the temp calibration is correct. Some are 3c off.
Brown is just the result of particulate, most of which does come form the clutch plates wearing which is normal. However, it can also come from the torque converter or fluid pump bearing, which usually ends up being black rather than brown.
The torque converter can be damaged by coolant because it will cause "grabbing" of the clutches, resulting in premature wear. This can also happen with the transmission clutches, but they engaged less often than those in the torque converter, so it will take longer for that damage to occur.
What is shedding the particulates?
What the bonded material on friction plates and clutch plates made of?
03-13-2017, 05:00 PM
