Ted Baldwin

.......How much does the M3 CSL cost as compared to the CLK63 BS? Cost aside, I lways felt that the M3 CSL is the proper like for like comparison for the CLK63 BS. The track times seem lopsided in favor of the M3 CSL. I don't know what this means. The regular M3 would be compared to the CLK63 fixed roof non BS. I did not think that M3 CSL was available in the US. Correct me if this has changed.

Ted

Addicted2Speed

I think you mistunderstood me... all I'm saying is that the performance difference between CLK63 convertible and coupe and a CLK63 Black Series is not very large. The buttom line is that it has the same engine (same 500hp too if you look at acceleration #'s) and only 100lbs lighter than CLK63 coupe, which lets be realistic, is barely noticeable in a 4,000lb car. You're not going to have radically different handling with a slightly firmer suspension and 100lbs weight reduction. Put the same tires on a CLK63 coupe and it will be just as fast as CLK63 BS on track (maybe <0.5 seconds slower on a 2-mile track).

Its a great car, but AMG is charging too much for such minor modifications... they should've dropped the weight down by at least 300-400lbs and increased the hp to 550hp, then you'd have a truly awesome machine



P.S. As far as price/performance of the supercharged SLK55 is concerned, its very good actually. I've spent about $70,000 including mods total and its a 3,350lbs convertible with 550hp+ (about the same power/weight ratio as a Z06)

Clk&Slk

The M3 CSL cost was around $65K. It not available to the US market was due to the limited number of cars build and the European market pretty much pre-order all the cars. I remember one of the qaulification for buyer to be able to order the CSL was that you a loyal to BMW and currently own an M3. As for comparision, I totally agreed with you. When it come to prices, I don't understand how a $140K not expect to outperformances a $65K car in every performances catagories? If I was Mercedes chief designer, I would hold my head lower for barely beat a standard M3 that cost about $65K LESS !!!

alexander stemer

Clearly anyone can disagree, but if you look at what is added to the BS, the sum of the parts is substantial. When you seriously track a car, it is really easy to overheat or overstress about any component. I have seen cars come in with the brakes literally on fire, overheated, or having destroyed the outer edge of the front tires. The suspension on the BS is much more suited to fast lapping, the multiplicity of coolers promote track "stamina", and the brakes will withstand sequential hard laps.
As a case in point, a friend recently took his 2007 M5 BMW (6 speed manual, not paddle shifter) to the track. When he drove it, there was no problem. When I pushed it, within 5 laps there was a message on the monitor saying "transmission overheated" and the car went into limp mode.
If all you want to do is drive in traffic, I agree you may never perceive the differences. AS

Ted Baldwin

.............good point, but that is why the discussion has focused on track lap times at the track between the various cars being compared, especially that between the M3 and CLK63 BS

Ted

Traffic53

i doubt that. i do follow rennlist and own a 911. i'd stop short of calling you a liar- and there is always the exception, but the day porsche denies warranty work because of track use is the day most of their customers say bye-bye. not only is the gt3 designed and manufactured as a track-day car, many/most dealers host events themselves- to say nothing of the factory-backed 'porsche driving experience'.

no worries. anyone having difficulty with warranty work need only a second opinion, or perhaps a call to the north america offices (porsche or benz). both of these car makers have way too much to lose by not covering their track-day machines. why produce it if you don't think it'll hold up to it's intended use?

cheers.

Clk&Slk

I'm not saying that you a liar but I never heard of "transmission overheated" on an M cars but I have heard of this problems on the 335 Turbo because it was due to no oil cooler. The problems was fixed with an aftermarket oil cooler.

Jim Brady

I went down to the BMW store and asked where the CSL's were.... You missed the point the Black is obviously not for you but generally for more mature enthusiasts, most who have owned and can afford some of the more common alternatives (GT3), but choose the black. I have owned race cars and they make terrible street cars even if you can drive them on the street. BMW will sell 12,000 M3's, and eventually the owners will want to move up to porsche. The BMW offers a fine bang for the buck but frankly they don't hold up for even mild track use. Ergo..no warrantee for the BMW even if the event is a joke. BTW, what would it cost to replace a M3 V8?

The AMG Trophy Cup took place at the Sachsenring and Ascari race tracks in europe this year which are first class racing venues. Like a lot of club racing in the US, vehicle contact is discouraged, as they said it's not NASCAR, especially, when four of the cars are CLK DTM's worth 270K.
It's possibly the best two days of racing I've ever experienced. If having your own race engineer, suspension tech, and tire expert to help with set up then I'll take that JOKE every time. I'm sure you thought it was like the AMG Challenge here in the States, and you would be wrong. And unlike a BMW club event that prohibits timing we had AX22 data loggers to assure we knew how fast we were going. To participate you need a race license, and an AMG car. The rules are go as fast as you want and you can pass anywhere. Interesting no mechanical failures, in two days of racing.
Jimmy

Clk&Slk

Hmmm.....look to me you were never at Sachsenring and Ascari race tracks in europe because then you would see the CSL M3 in the show room. How do you dispute the FACTS.....that the 3 years old model CSL M3 is more then 22 sec. faster then new BS on the same track? Let me repeat.......that's 22 SECOND difference !!!



7:22.9 - 169.07 km/h -- Loaded BMW M3 CSL (tuned to GTR specs) ~600 PS

7:45* -- 159.48 km/h -- Mercedes CLK 63 AMG Black Series, 507 PS/1760 kg

alexander stemer

Well, I'm glad you aren't saying I'm a liar, but then what are you saying? Because you never heard of it, it never happened?
Let me describe this to you in detail, so you can file it under "absolutely true things I never heard of".
I was driving the car at Gingerman. My friend had driven 5 laps with me in the passenger seat. I would say they were no more than what I would consider 6/10ths speed. He asked me to drive a few laps. Using mostly third gear, I began to pick up the pace, primarily trying to get the car to turn by braking later into corners. Within 5 laps, the big center information system flashed a screen that said "Transmission overheating" The car went into a reduced power mode. After sitting 30 minutes in the pits, the car was normal again, but the problem repeated the next time out.
The manual M5 clearly is delivered without enough transmission cooling to allow 10 miles of hard driving (Gingerman is a 1.8 mile track). It also has relatively poor front end bite, and is too soft for serious track driving. If BMW were to put in all the coolers needed, massively revise the suspension, develop new steering, upgrade the brakes significantly, add a locking diff, and do a special body package for 350 cars, I'm guessing the price would need to go up about 50 grand. AS

chiphomme

Are sure that 7:22 wasn't this car (which is a V8 E46 M3 GTR)?

Engine
Type: V8
Displacement cu in (cc): 244 (3997)
Power bhp (kW) at RPM: 350(258) / 7250
Torque lb-ft (Nm) at RPM: 270(365) / 5000
Redline at RPM: n.a.
Brakes & Tires
Brakes F/R: ABS, vented disc/vented disc
Tires F-R: 225/40 R19 - 255/35 R19
Driveline: Rear Wheel Drive
Exterior Dimensions & Weight
Length × Width × Height in: 181 × 70 × 53
Weight lb (kg): 2976 (1350)
Performance
Acceleration 0-62 mph s: n.a.
Top Speed mph (km/h): 155 (250)
Fuel Economy EPA city/highway mpg (l/100 km): n.a.


Base Price: 2001 BMW M3 GTR Street Version - Approx. $250,000 / 252,000 €

ET550

This is the description of the M3 CSL which ran those times. Basically a one- off race car. I really don't see the relevance of a comparison with the CLK. http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=17133

Jim Brady

Hey clkslk,
I was there at the Sachsenring and have the trophy to prove it.

Let see the 7:22 is only 10 seconds faster than a 997 GT2 driven by Walter Rohl and your still maintaining the CSL that set that time is a street car.

I would believe that if your talking about a M3 CSL GTR V8 I've seen it last year on the track at WSIR (big Willow) It's about $400k piece new and has computerized traction control. Nice race car. Didn't get to run with him in the porsche because he BROKE!
Jimmy

LZH

While you guys are postulating, guessing and making absurd comparisions, why not say the M3 GTR is a good comparision to the BS and reference this car with Hans Stuck behing the wheel.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...oid=1222377473

Point is, none of the comparisons made above are accurate or even close. The reason is there is NO FACTORY BUILT car that does what the BS does. Comparisons to the fixed roof CLK 63 is stupid as they are totally different cars. Someone above said with R compounds it would be just as fast as the BS - LOL, riiiiight. It'd never happen, and the CLK63 fixed roof would be retired after 5 hard laps either from overheating or something blown. That's what happens when you track a car hard - ***** breaks. Comparisons to the E92 M3, CSL GTR etc are also stupid becasue, again, the BS is a totally different car. Take a stock M3 V8 and I guarantee you it will not have the ability to run all day on the track with the BS - it simply is not cut out for track duty like the BS is.

g4drive

Yes ... all they need now is to work on producing a good F1 car ...

alexander stemer

Yes, that is exactly what I meant to say. I watched a bit of the M3 vid. Is that a gearbox with straight-cut gears? Sure sounds like it. Very streetable....

Here is a question for BS owners that may clarify the "value" issue. Would you trade your car for a new M3 and a check for $50,000? (BMW price "as tested" was $70,000, and we all have some depreciation hit on our cars). Or an AudiRS4, or a Lexus IS F? I know if I had one of those latter cars, I'd be looking for something else. If you don't want to do that trade, then the car has the extra value to you. AS

neilbo75

Judging by this list, the CLK DTM is either five seconds faster round the 'ring than the CLK 63 Black Series ... or nine seconds slower ... or eleven seconds slower. I would have guessed a wee bit faster - given the more powerful motor and similar chassis.

It's the one Lord Ring, but one shoudn't put too much weight on small or even not so small differences between lap times. Different drivers, different ambient conditions, even different examples of the same model of production car can all add up. Throw in different cars and you've got a free for all.

Please, someone tell me how a Maybach 57s can be four seconds faster than a CLK 55 (8:25 vs. 8:29)? Sure, it's got two more turbos and four more cylinders ... and also one more ton! Is it a rich enough ride to bribe away the laws of physics?

LZH

Yeah, straight cut gears, solid tranny and motor mounts...yeah, very streetable.
I wouldn't trade my BS for anything buy a 599...but then, I would not be willing to pay the extra $$$ for the small increase in performance - just not worth it. And that Lexus POS ???? Please, of course Ted brings that up...That has to be one of the uglyest cars I have ever seen and even if you gave me one I wouldn't be caught DEAD driving it.
What I REALLY want is that wing on the Black Series from the pics above...

Clk&Slk

1) For some people, the same can be said to your Lexus RXH !!!

2) Are you serious? I drive an Honda Civic for work and I WOULDN'T be caught DEAD driving with the wing on my Civic!!!

LZH

First of all the RXh is my wife's and as far as the wing on your civic....I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean other than a faild attempt at humor. And furthermore, I wouldn't be caught dead driving a civic..but that's cool, you can tell people it's a new M3, they look almost identical. Lastly, aren't you the one that wrongly described the BS as "an all out race car" and then Jim corrected you??? And then you brought the one off FULL RACE M3 GTR into the comparision with the Black Series ?? Get a clue dude...

It amazes me that anyone would be so stupid and uninformed to make the comparison you made above.

Regarding the wing though, technically speaking, it obviously gives the car more grip in the rear and would naturally reduce straightaway speed. That should be taken into account when looking at it's lap times as compared to US cars with no aero...

Ted Baldwin

.....I don't know if these track times are correct, but the LFA's price and track times as published place it in a different category from the CLK63 black series. It is more in the league of the SL63 BS, and considerably faster. I agree that it is not very easy on the eyes, but is this a beauty contest? Give some credit where it is due. I think the Japanese have come worthy competitors. Snobbing them does not erase the 7:24* -- 169.65 km/h. I get confused. Is it not you that wanted to use lap times instead of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times to compare these cars?

Ted

fickleone

Mr Baldwin,

I suspect when you drive the CLK Black Series, you will sing a different tune.

I am anti MB, anti AMG, and I have to tell you the Black Series is a stunning car. And yes I bought it.. how did that happen? (The only MB I like(d) is the G55 AMG).

Now I suggest you forget your biases and go drive one.

The Black Series is a stunning car!

LZH

No that wasn't me, I never said the value of the BS was it's track worthiness. It is a major factor, but its ability to do both - sustained track usage and everyday driving is what make this car so unique.
I agree with you, this is not a beauty contest...The Lexus is blisteringly fast...lets see how it does in the real world where the BS has more than proven itself. But again, you cannot compare the two - the BS is substantially cheaper, not to mention better looking

Clk&Slk

1) You missed my point but don't worry.

2) The only cars that drive around with wing like that is RICE RACER !! Why would you want to do that on a classy car like the BS. I'm sure Mercedes would agreed with me and that why the car does not came with it.

3) there's alot of people that feel the same way like you.......I called those people "WANNABE" rich !!

4) I agreed with you. Can you images if that same wing install on the M3 and what it would do to the times? The result would definately be difference. More like M3 ahead by .5 second !!

LZH

I won't waste my time with responding to your items 1,3 and 4. But you really need to pull your head out of your a$$ and do some research before posting, or just read a bit more carefully (this was discussed in post #18).
That wing is the FACTORY AERO PACKAGE from Mercedes, so, again, you are wrong and it's pretty clear that Mercedes does NOT agree with you as it is available for ROW cars. Put simply so you can grasp it - THE WING PICTURED ABOVE IS NOT AN AFTERMARKET PIECE.
Now, please enlighten me further about how the M3 GTR is a great daily driver...