new M3 vs CLK BS
#27
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Mir geht's ausgezeichnet, danke! Ich war zu faul die Tastatur auf deutsch umzustellen. Du hast recht, dass ist genau wie mann es buchstabiert.
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#29
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C55 AMG, 135i, 911 GT3, GLE43 AMG
Well obviously you are a porsche enthusiast that chooses to pick the numbers that best support your argument. you chose to pick a porsche 997 with PDK which was obviously tested at a much later date rather than the 997 C2S which Sport Auto also timed at 8:05 around Nurburgring. Maybe we should all be driving the paragon of track cars, the Aston Martin Vantage V8 which Sport Auto tested at 8:03. Bottom line is that the Sport Auto times are no more reliable or trustworthy than any body elses, and are subject to the limits of their drivers and the test conditions on that day.
I just chose to list some cars to compare to the CLK63 BS to give some perspective. And yes, Porsche 911's do pretty damn well on a track. I do think the new 997 Mk2 C2S with PDK is damn impressive as a track weapon, and it is clearly faster than the "older" 997 C2S.
Short of a head to head test with the same driver on the same day (which I think is the BEST way to compare 2 or more cars), the Sport Auto laptimes are the 2nd best thing because they use the SAME DRIVER for each of their Supertests. So yes, I still think the Sport Auto Supertest laptimes are still far better than that list you posted where laptimes from different drivers/manufacturers/magazines are all mixed together. And it certainly is more objective than emotional fanboys claiming one car is SO much better than another.
Can't accept that a V8 Vantage with R-compounds can go pretty fast? That's just denial for purely subjective reasons.
Last edited by PC Valkyrie; 02-04-2009 at 06:51 PM.
#30
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C55 AMG, 135i, 911 GT3, GLE43 AMG
The perfect real world comparison is if you (the same driver) could drive a E92 M3 or GT3 and CLK63 BS on the track and see which car you were faster in. Like I said earlier, I would bet that most non-pro drivers would be much faster in the BS.
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CLK 63 Black Series, 2009 S550, 2011 Range Rover Supercharged, BMW F800 GS Anniv Edition
Well I'm not a pro driver, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
And since you mention the "perfect real world comparison"; I have driven all the cars you mention on the track and I can tell you that the BS is the fastest. The n/a 911's fall on their face on long tracks where the BS can really stretch it's legs and vice versa for the BS on very short, tight technical tracks.
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#32
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Well I'm not a pro driver, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
And since you mention the "perfect real world comparison"; I have driven all the cars you mention on the track and I can tell you that the BS is the fastest. The n/a 911's fall on their face on long tracks where the BS can really stretch it's legs and vice versa for the BS on very short, tight technical tracks.
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08 S65, 06 M3 CS(stick), 02 BMW X5 4.6iS, 07 R1 Raven, 08 F-450 4x4, 08 CooperS JCW
By reading not only this post, but every single one about the Black Series, you have nothing but negative things to say about the car. If someone asks me for a comparison between two cars, I'll base my opinion on first hand experience, and not on what some magazine or tester has to say about it. Like I said before, I like Porsche and M cars and had a few. Every one was bought brand new, and sometimes I had a Porsche and M car at the same time. You have to admit, that is a perfect scenario for a true comparison.
I also think it is a better car than the E92 M3- it handles a little better and is more powerful. However, the M offers stick shift and a more highly tuned engine (though capacity of the MB V8 ensures it is the more potent). The price of the bs I felt was too high at 138,000 but if it makes its owners happy that's great. The closest I spent to that was my 996 GT3 and I had a grin every time i visited the track.
The closest MB I have driven to the bs is the E63 with performance pkg. It handled well but the bs by all accounts handles far better despite being the same weight due to the extensive mods the bs was given at the factory.
Auf wiedersehen.
I could lie and say I've driven the bs and the 997 GT3 RS but it's not in my nature. I find it hard to believe anyone here has tracked the E92 M3 and 997 GT3 as well as their BS but it's the internet so there's some that'll claim it. Also, the comment about myself and valkyrie not tracking is almost as strange one.
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CLK 63 Black Series, 2009 S550, 2011 Range Rover Supercharged, BMW F800 GS Anniv Edition
Then I guess it's just your nature to make veiled accusations of dishonesty. I've tracked all that you mention, including 996 and 997 Cup Cars. It's not like you're talking about Enzo's, CGT's, MC12's, LP640's...the cars you question are quite plebian in the grand scheme of things. A friend of mine who is an M car nut happens to be a member at Spring Mountain. He has a new M5, M6, 4 E30 M3's (2 street, 2 track), 2 E46 M3's and the E92 M3. I have driven them all at Spring Mountain.
Last edited by LZH; 02-04-2009 at 09:27 PM.
#38
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#39
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My comparison was for street use and occasional track use. To me, the objective is to have fun at the track, and not drive the car 10/10th and risk to write off a $150,000. Neither am I willing to trailer 3 cars out to the track just to see which one I'm faster in. Sorry, but my ego is just not that big. Most of the people I know go once in a while to the track to have fun and see how track worthy their cars are. The rest of the time those cars see mostly stop and go traffic. And as you probably know, real track cars are no fun to drive on the street.
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#42
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Yes, it should be another fun day, I have a couple new goodies going on the car right nowthat I'm looking forward to testing out at Willow. I just hope my day does not get caalled short again.
#43
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I am very excited about Willow on the 19th as well and look forward to meeting you in person.
Sascha
#46
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Jim, I just got back from Evosport and your car is sitting right next to mine on the racks. I have a few things done as well and can't wait to test it at Willow. Don't want to lift the curtain, but I like that CF piece you are getting
. There are a couple of things I'd like Evosport to build, but the best for me is to have them work on the car while I'm in Europe next month.
I am very excited about Willow on the 19th as well and look forward to meeting you in person.
Sascha
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I am very excited about Willow on the 19th as well and look forward to meeting you in person.
Sascha
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If everything goes smoothly from here on out I hope to be able to post up some new dyno numbers, I have not had a chance to dyno the car with the Dymags and some of the various new mods installed at the same time.
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2012 Cayenne Turbo
I don't know why so many of you think this is an absurd comparison?
For all the power and suspension advantages the CLK has over the M3 it does has one huge weakness, its transmission. No serious track car has an automatic. And as far as 'ring times are concerned, I highly doubt a stock CLK63 ran a 7:45 (anymore than a stock GT-R did 7:29). I would guess the Black and a new M3 would be pretty close to one another if all things (other than the car) were equal.
For all the power and suspension advantages the CLK has over the M3 it does has one huge weakness, its transmission. No serious track car has an automatic. And as far as 'ring times are concerned, I highly doubt a stock CLK63 ran a 7:45 (anymore than a stock GT-R did 7:29). I would guess the Black and a new M3 would be pretty close to one another if all things (other than the car) were equal.
Last edited by chiphomme; 02-14-2009 at 01:05 PM.
#48
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I don't know why so many of you think this is an absurd comparison?
For all the power and suspension advantages the CLK has over the M3 it does has one huge weakness, its transmission. No serious track car has an automatic. And as far as 'ring times are concerned, I highly doubt a stock CLK63 ran a 7:45 (anymore than a stock GT-R did 7:29). I would guess the Black and an a new M3 would be pretty close to one another if all things (other than the car) were equal.
For all the power and suspension advantages the CLK has over the M3 it does has one huge weakness, its transmission. No serious track car has an automatic. And as far as 'ring times are concerned, I highly doubt a stock CLK63 ran a 7:45 (anymore than a stock GT-R did 7:29). I would guess the Black and an a new M3 would be pretty close to one another if all things (other than the car) were equal.
Last edited by Bones; 02-14-2009 at 12:34 PM. Reason: ...
#49
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Lotus Elise SLK55
i agree the BS is a better track car and it was designed for such. The M3 is more of a mass produced street car and was designed as such.......and could easily have brake lines and transmission coolers upgraded and still have enough money left over. Im just talking bang for the buck.
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Jimmy