new M3 vs CLK BS
02-16-2009, 11:23 AM
#76
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What makes them direct competitors? M3 is a $60k car with 4 seats available in coupe, conv. or sedan and has 414hp/295tq. I would think most people who bought or were seriously thinking about buying a BS were more likely to look at an M6 than an M3. C63 is more of a direct competitor to an M3.
An M3 and CLK63 are direct competitors. They are both high performance coupes. They would roughly cough up similiar times on a track.
All you're obsessed with is cost. I am talking performance.
And an M6 is less of a competitor to the CLK63 than the M3 because it isn't as nimble (believe me I've owned one).
It would be like saying the GT-R isn't a direct competitor to a 997 Turbo because its cheaper.
02-16-2009, 12:04 PM
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I don't think cost needs to factor in when discussing if one car is competition for another car on the race track. Chevy, Dodge and Nissan have all proven they can build super cars that can compete with the best sports cars in the world for about $100k or less. The E92 M3 is a worty competitor to the Black Series for about $50k (msrp) less money. What I love about the BS over the M3 is the much more aggressive looks, the rumble of the exhaust and the fact that I am not going tp see 2 or 3 Black Series in the Valet line at my favorite Sushi place or at a cars and coffee meet, E92 M3s are a dime a dozen in my parts, you have to put a price on exclusivity.
Chiphomme- your posts have been well considered throughout. While good, the BS would clearly be a better track car with an automated manual and 5-600lbs less weight.
Separate from debates about its abilities, I have no idea how it can weigh the same as a mid-size sedan.
02-16-2009, 01:00 PM
#78
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I don't think cost needs to factor in when discussing if one car is competition for another car on the race track. Chevy, Dodge and Nissan have all proven they can build super cars that can compete with the best sports cars in the world for about $100k or less. The E92 M3 is a worty competitor to the Black Series for about $50k (msrp) less money. What I love about the BS over the M3 is the much more aggressive looks, the rumble of the exhaust and the fact that I am not going tp see 2 or 3 Black Series in the Valet line at my favorite Sushi place or at a cars and coffee meet, E92 M3s are a dime a dozen in my parts, you have to put a price on exclusivity.
02-16-2009, 01:31 PM
#79
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Is this place filled with jokers?
An M3 and CLK63 are direct competitors. They are both high performance coupes. They would roughly cough up similiar times on a track.
All you're obsessed with is cost. I am talking performance.
And an M6 is less of a competitor to the CLK63 than the M3 because it isn't as nimble (believe me I've owned one).
It would be like saying the GT-R isn't a direct competitor to a 997 Turbo because its cheaper.
An M3 and CLK63 are direct competitors. They are both high performance coupes. They would roughly cough up similiar times on a track.
All you're obsessed with is cost. I am talking performance.
And an M6 is less of a competitor to the CLK63 than the M3 because it isn't as nimble (believe me I've owned one).
It would be like saying the GT-R isn't a direct competitor to a 997 Turbo because its cheaper.
02-16-2009, 04:16 PM
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2008 CLK 63 Black Series, 2013 G63, 2014 RS5 Coupe, 2013 JKUR 10A
Is this place filled with jokers?
An M3 and CLK63 are direct competitors. They are both high performance coupes. They would roughly cough up similiar times on a track.
All you're obsessed with is cost. I am talking performance.
And an M6 is less of a competitor to the CLK63 than the M3 because it isn't as nimble (believe me I've owned one).
It would be like saying the GT-R isn't a direct competitor to a 997 Turbo because its cheaper.
An M3 and CLK63 are direct competitors. They are both high performance coupes. They would roughly cough up similiar times on a track.
All you're obsessed with is cost. I am talking performance.
And an M6 is less of a competitor to the CLK63 than the M3 because it isn't as nimble (believe me I've owned one).
It would be like saying the GT-R isn't a direct competitor to a 997 Turbo because its cheaper.
02-16-2009, 05:53 PM
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I believe one needs to take both cost and performance into account when calling another car a "direct" competitor. An M3 may be more nimble than an M6 but it lacks in the power and cost department. I frankly don't consider either of them as "direct" competitors to the BS, just that the M6 was more so than the M3. I will stand by my comment that the C63 is more of a direct competitor to the M3 than the BS. The fact that you think all high performance coupes are direct competitors to each other without more is a joke in and of itself. And I don't know what qualifies as "roughly similar" track times. 5 seconds or 15 seconds can be a big difference depending on the track.
An M3 will beat up on a C63 in a track enviroment. The CLK63 Black is the weapon in Mercedes arsenal best suited to run against the bimmer. It would be close around a track (especially a tight one).
I would be curious as to what you consider as CLK63 BS competition?
GT-R? 997 Turbo? 997 GT3?
I think these cars would put more daylight between them and the Mercedes than the Mercedes would on an M3.
Not that this means much (other than it supposedly uses the same driver on the same course) but look at Top Gears lap times:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_Test_Track
Last edited by chiphomme; 02-16-2009 at 05:58 PM.
02-16-2009, 07:32 PM
#82
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A few seconds is huge, precisely why I think they're direct competitors
An M3 will beat up on a C63 in a track enviroment. The CLK63 Black is the weapon in Mercedes arsenal best suited to run against the bimmer. It would be close around a track (especially a tight one).
I would be curious as to what you consider as CLK63 BS competition?
GT-R? 997 Turbo? 997 GT3?
I think these cars would put more daylight between them and the Mercedes than the Mercedes would on an M3.
Not that this means much (other than it supposedly uses the same driver on the same course) but look at Top Gears lap times:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_Test_Track
An M3 will beat up on a C63 in a track enviroment. The CLK63 Black is the weapon in Mercedes arsenal best suited to run against the bimmer. It would be close around a track (especially a tight one).
I would be curious as to what you consider as CLK63 BS competition?
GT-R? 997 Turbo? 997 GT3?
I think these cars would put more daylight between them and the Mercedes than the Mercedes would on an M3.
Not that this means much (other than it supposedly uses the same driver on the same course) but look at Top Gears lap times:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_Test_Track
02-16-2009, 07:38 PM
#83
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The M3 is a much better daily driver. I own both the M3 and BS. The black hides its weight exceptionally well. I've driven several RSs and they actually feel very similar to the BS. The M3 on the other hand does fine when you wind it up above 5k and have EDC to adjust for ride comfort. The BS does not. I would find these two cars very diff and would say that the C63 makes for a more suitable comparison.
02-16-2009, 10:52 PM
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The M3 is a much better daily driver. I own both the M3 and BS. The black hides its weight exceptionally well. I've driven several RSs and they actually feel very similar to the BS. The M3 on the other hand does fine when you wind it up above 5k and have EDC to adjust for ride comfort. The BS does not. I would find these two cars very diff and would say that the C63 makes for a more suitable comparison.
02-16-2009, 11:26 PM
#86
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Is this place filled with jokers?
An M3 and CLK63 are direct competitors. They are both high performance coupes. They would roughly cough up similiar times on a track.
All you're obsessed with is cost. I am talking performance.
And an M6 is less of a competitor to the CLK63 than the M3 because it isn't as nimble (believe me I've owned one).
It would be like saying the GT-R isn't a direct competitor to a 997 Turbo because its cheaper.
An M3 and CLK63 are direct competitors. They are both high performance coupes. They would roughly cough up similiar times on a track.
All you're obsessed with is cost. I am talking performance.
And an M6 is less of a competitor to the CLK63 than the M3 because it isn't as nimble (believe me I've owned one).
It would be like saying the GT-R isn't a direct competitor to a 997 Turbo because its cheaper.
Do you really believe someone buys a BS and even thinks about an M3
I think its the other way around, an M3 buyer is almost getting the performance of a BS, well for about two laps. Jimmy
02-17-2009, 12:30 AM
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I want to make it perfectly clear I really like my Black Series but I just think there's an element of snobbery going on here. An M3 is a damn nice car with a great pedigree (it is BMWs 911). It shouldn't be embarrassing to compare the two.
Last edited by chiphomme; 02-17-2009 at 12:38 AM.
02-17-2009, 12:57 AM
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[QUOTE=chiphomme;3356495]I would have had I not had a poor experience with an M6.
I just think there's an element of snobbery going on here.
Pass the Grey Poupon..peasants.
Sir James
I just think there's an element of snobbery going on here.
Pass the Grey Poupon..peasants.
Sir James
02-17-2009, 01:37 AM
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CLK 63 Black Series, 2009 S550, 2011 Range Rover Supercharged, BMW F800 GS Anniv Edition
It's not embarrassing, it's just stupid. We just had an owner of BOTH say the C63 is a better comparison. So you wanna debate this purely on performance ??? The BS will RIP the M3 on the track over and over and over again by an even larger margin than the aforementioned REVIEWS you speak of. Have you even DRIVEN both cars on the track ???? Good God man, get a grip. THEY ARE NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE. They are TOTALLY different cars in every way. Sure the M3 is a better daily driver. And the BS is a better track car NO DOUBT. Can the BS be driven every day. Yes, I do mine....in LA TRAFFIC. What does that tell you ?? Hell, I drove today for 3 hrs in POURING rain from San Diego to LA and (no joke) I had some loser in his new M3 zipping around me for hrs trying to bait me into a race. The only snobbery going on here is your own reverse snobbery. Jimmy said it best -
I gotta pour another scotch. Macallan 25 please, James
I gotta pour another scotch. Macallan 25 please, James
Last edited by LZH; 02-17-2009 at 01:45 AM.
02-17-2009, 01:52 AM
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It's not embarrassing, it's just stupid. We just had an owner of BOTH say the C63 is a better comparison. So you wanna debate this purely on performance ??? The BS will RIP the M3 on the track over and over and over again by an even larger margin than the aforementioned REVIEWS you speak of. Have you even DRIVEN both cars on the track ???? Good God man, get a grip. THEY ARE NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE. They are TOTALLY different cars in every way. Sure the M3 is a better daily driver. And the BS is a better track car NO DOUBT. Can the BS be driven every day. Yes, I do mine....in LA TRAFFIC. What does that tell you ?? Hell, I drove today for 3 hrs in POURING rain from San Diego to LA and (no joke) I had some loser in his new M3 zipping around me for hrs trying to bait me into a race. The only snobbery going on here is your own reverse snobbery. Jimmy said it best -
Can you read? Where did I say I prefered the M3 over the Black?
I only said its a legit car to compare. Sheez. You get a f#$@ing grip.
So what if a guy that owns both said a C63 is a better comparison. Based on what? I've owned an M3 and an M6 and I'm telling you its fair.
Nothing worse than people that enjoying preaching to the choir. That why I rarely frequent this forum. Anyone that says anything slightly negative gets ripped on.
BTW, Sportauto ran them both at 8:05 around the 'ring.
http://www.sportauto-online.de/test_...8724_14469.hbs
http://www.sportauto-online.de/test_...0409_14469.hbs
Last edited by chiphomme; 02-17-2009 at 02:29 AM.
02-17-2009, 02:47 AM
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CLK 63 Black Series, 2009 S550, 2011 Range Rover Supercharged, BMW F800 GS Anniv Edition
Chip - Just answer one question for me please. Have you driven both your BS and the E92 on the track ?
It's a simple yes or no question.
It's a simple yes or no question.
02-17-2009, 03:52 AM
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99 M3
I'll chime in..
I've owned four M3's in the past 10 years and been a BMW fanatic/owner for even longer, so i'm as biased as they come. The E90/2 M3 IS a competitor to the CLKBS for many reasons. We know the CLKBS has some clear advantages (more HP and heavier duty components) but it's price was tough to argue since performance figures are so close. MSRP for MSRP, the M3 *was* a better value on paper since they are two V8 coupes with similar dimensions, both made by two of the best tuning houses in the world.
I was originally considering a new M3 to replace my cars but saw the *current market values* of the CLKBS are too close not to consider it a direct competitor. After a few common minor upgrades to the M3, they are basically the same price now. As a non-owner, both have their merits in my eyes. The BMW has a bit more technology whereas the MB has more exclusivity. The BMW can be personalized more (options, color) but the MB is maximized better from the factory with its brakes and suspension. Unfortunately, the MB still has an automatic whereas the BMW offers two transmissions that are both superior for this type of car.. The MB also has an outdated nav system compared to BMW's new iDrive setup. I know it's blasphemy but these are things potential buyers like myself take into consideration.
When considering the +/-'s of both cars, it really is a tough choice between two great cars. One may argue my rationale is based on a brand new car vs. a used one but lets face it: most CLKBS's don't have more than <5k miles. It seems like alot of guys discredit the M3 just because it doesn't cost as much as their Black did, but in all fairness they are the same ones who have suffered a $60K hit!
I was originally considering a new M3 to replace my cars but saw the *current market values* of the CLKBS are too close not to consider it a direct competitor. After a few common minor upgrades to the M3, they are basically the same price now. As a non-owner, both have their merits in my eyes. The BMW has a bit more technology whereas the MB has more exclusivity. The BMW can be personalized more (options, color) but the MB is maximized better from the factory with its brakes and suspension. Unfortunately, the MB still has an automatic whereas the BMW offers two transmissions that are both superior for this type of car.. The MB also has an outdated nav system compared to BMW's new iDrive setup. I know it's blasphemy but these are things potential buyers like myself take into consideration.
When considering the +/-'s of both cars, it really is a tough choice between two great cars. One may argue my rationale is based on a brand new car vs. a used one but lets face it: most CLKBS's don't have more than <5k miles. It seems like alot of guys discredit the M3 just because it doesn't cost as much as their Black did, but in all fairness they are the same ones who have suffered a $60K hit!
Last edited by jvit27; 02-17-2009 at 03:57 AM.
02-17-2009, 10:49 AM
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02-17-2009, 12:41 PM
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CLS63, GLK350
It's not embarrassing, it's just stupid. We just had an owner of BOTH say the C63 is a better comparison. So you wanna debate this purely on performance ??? The BS will RIP the M3 on the track over and over and over again by an even larger margin than the aforementioned REVIEWS you speak of. Have you even DRIVEN both cars on the track ???? Good God man, get a grip. THEY ARE NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE. They are TOTALLY different cars in every way. Sure the M3 is a better daily driver. And the BS is a better track car NO DOUBT. Can the BS be driven every day. Yes, I do mine....in LA TRAFFIC. What does that tell you ?? Hell, I drove today for 3 hrs in POURING rain from San Diego to LA and (no joke) I had some loser in his new M3 zipping around me for hrs trying to bait me into a race. The only snobbery going on here is your own reverse snobbery. Jimmy said it best -
I gotta pour another scotch. Macallan 25 please, James
I gotta pour another scotch. Macallan 25 please, James
02-17-2009, 01:53 PM
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02-17-2009, 02:53 PM
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CLK 63 Black Series, 2009 S550, 2011 Range Rover Supercharged, BMW F800 GS Anniv Edition
Yes, I have. Please see my previous post toTransferred:
IMO, all things considered, the BS has no competition. If you want to look at JUST performance based on magazine reviews and on paper then yes, the M3 is close. But take them both out on the track and you will soon realize the BS is a much more hadened tool for the job.
Mr. Tansferred would like you believe the following:
So brakes are the only thing that needs upgrading for heavy duty track use ??
While that MAY be true for LIMITED track use - but then you are not comparing STOCK vehicles are you ?? Nor are you considering the added transmission cooler, steering cooler and rear dif cooler that keep the BS on the track longer, without fail and keep it IN FRONT.
Not sure who this shot was aimed at or if it's just BS envy. Regardless, I'll take a stab....
I have yet to see a BS owner in this thread claim their car is better because it costs more so you can throw that bravado argument out the door. Defensive about the fact that Autosport turned an 8:05 compared to Bernd Schneider's 7:45 ?? All that tells me is Schneider is a better driver than Mr. Horst von Saurma. And Saurma is NOT a pro driver as PC said...He had a brief racing career. Clearly from his lap times in the BS, he should stick to his day job as CHIEF EDITOR of a car mag as he was TWENTY SECONDS off Schneider's pace.
And lastly...humility ? I believe the BS owners here have been more than humble about their cars abilities when in fact comparing it to an M3 makes no sense at all. They are very, very different cars altogether. A better comparison would be between the BS and the much more expensive F430. Even then the BS still comes out on top in all categories (besides flash). Have you been behind the wheel of a BS on the track ? Have you even driven one ? The OP did ask for opinions from those who have driven both and I have...on the street and on the track. It seems certain to me that your cynicism is due largely by the fact that you own an M3.
I have yet to see a BS owner in this thread claim their car is better because it costs more so you can throw that bravado argument out the door. Defensive about the fact that Autosport turned an 8:05 compared to Bernd Schneider's 7:45 ?? All that tells me is Schneider is a better driver than Mr. Horst von Saurma. And Saurma is NOT a pro driver as PC said...He had a brief racing career. Clearly from his lap times in the BS, he should stick to his day job as CHIEF EDITOR of a car mag as he was TWENTY SECONDS off Schneider's pace.
And lastly...humility ? I believe the BS owners here have been more than humble about their cars abilities when in fact comparing it to an M3 makes no sense at all. They are very, very different cars altogether. A better comparison would be between the BS and the much more expensive F430. Even then the BS still comes out on top in all categories (besides flash). Have you been behind the wheel of a BS on the track ? Have you even driven one ? The OP did ask for opinions from those who have driven both and I have...on the street and on the track. It seems certain to me that your cynicism is due largely by the fact that you own an M3.
Mr. Tansferred would like you believe the following:
So brakes are the only thing that needs upgrading for heavy duty track use ??
While that MAY be true for LIMITED track use - but then you are not comparing STOCK vehicles are you ?? Nor are you considering the added transmission cooler, steering cooler and rear dif cooler that keep the BS on the track longer, without fail and keep it IN FRONT.
02-17-2009, 03:02 PM
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That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read.
So you're saying the Black Series has no competition.
So basically you'd take issue if anyone compared any car to the Mercedes.
That pretty much makes your opinion meaningless.
So you're saying the Black Series has no competition.
So basically you'd take issue if anyone compared any car to the Mercedes.
That pretty much makes your opinion meaningless.
02-17-2009, 03:17 PM
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CLK 63 Black Series, 2009 S550, 2011 Range Rover Supercharged, BMW F800 GS Anniv Edition
I said ALL THINGS CONSIDERED the BS has no competition and I stand by that statement. I'm not saying it's the best; simply that there really is no other car that matches it's track prowess, combined with it's daily drivebility and comfort that is synonymous with a MBZ, and the exclusivity that goes along with a very limited production vehicle. I never said the M3 is junk, simply that comparing it to the BS is stupid as the BS is a much more track oriented tool. Yes, the M3 can cut a quick lap, but not over and over again like the BS can with ease.
I really can't think of another street car that can do all that. Since you think that is "the dumbest thing you've ever heard"...well, then I challange you to use your intelligence and prove me wrong.
Oh and BTW - this is not only my OPINION, but also backed up with FACT and FIRSTHAND experience. You can rely on magazine reviews to base your OPINION - I rely on seat time.
Last edited by LZH; 02-17-2009 at 03:21 PM.
02-17-2009, 04:00 PM
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Very intelligent, Chip...."dumbest thing you've ever heard" - really ?
I said ALL THINGS CONSIDERED the BS has no competition and I stand by that statement. I'm not saying it's the best; simply that there really is no other car that matches it's track prowess, combined with it's daily drivebility and comfort that is synonymous with a MBZ, and the exclusivity that goes along with a very limited production vehicle. I never said the M3 is junk, simply that comparing it to the BS is stupid as the BS is a much more track oriented tool. Yes, the M3 can cut a quick lap, but not over and over again like the BS can with ease.
I really can't think of another street car that can do all that. Since you think that is "the dumbest thing you've ever heard"...well, then I challange you to use your intelligence and prove me wrong.
Oh and BTW - this is not only my OPINION, but also backed up with FACT and FIRSTHAND experience. You can rely on magazine reviews to base your OPINION - I rely on seat time.
I said ALL THINGS CONSIDERED the BS has no competition and I stand by that statement. I'm not saying it's the best; simply that there really is no other car that matches it's track prowess, combined with it's daily drivebility and comfort that is synonymous with a MBZ, and the exclusivity that goes along with a very limited production vehicle. I never said the M3 is junk, simply that comparing it to the BS is stupid as the BS is a much more track oriented tool. Yes, the M3 can cut a quick lap, but not over and over again like the BS can with ease.
I really can't think of another street car that can do all that. Since you think that is "the dumbest thing you've ever heard"...well, then I challange you to use your intelligence and prove me wrong.
Oh and BTW - this is not only my OPINION, but also backed up with FACT and FIRSTHAND experience. You can rely on magazine reviews to base your OPINION - I rely on seat time.
If you take away the meaningless "exclusivity" there are a bunch of vehicles that match up well, if not exceed the CLK63 in the performance/daily driveability category(and many are really exclusive too).
The M3 obviously, the GT-R, R8, any 997, Z06, ZR1, etc.
And frankly most of the cars I have listed are better DDs than the Black.
Your "has no competition" is silly. The CLK63 has plenty of competitors.
