new M3 vs CLK BS
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 354
Likes: 45
From: Chicago
e55
So Sport Auto is a better source than Car & Driver and why would that be?
Both are secondary sources. AMG offical response is SUB 8 minutes, what is BMW's? Bernd Schneder did it in 7:45 deal with it. The M3 is very nice car and I don't think anyone on this board will take the child like approach to deny that. Actually, you sound like a porsche fan denying theat the GT-R ran a 7:29.
Jimmy
Both are secondary sources. AMG offical response is SUB 8 minutes, what is BMW's? Bernd Schneder did it in 7:45 deal with it. The M3 is very nice car and I don't think anyone on this board will take the child like approach to deny that. Actually, you sound like a porsche fan denying theat the GT-R ran a 7:29.Jimmy
Banned
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,735
Likes: 1
CLK 63 Black Series, 2009 S550, 2011 Range Rover Supercharged, BMW F800 GS Anniv Edition
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,309
Likes: 86
From: Cave Creek, AZ and Newport Beach
'22 G 63 AMG, '21 GLE 53 AMG, '20 NSX
I knew Brady Bunch would jump in. How do you know that Schneider did it in 7:45?? Because AMG said so, common pal. Is their video like the tweeked GTR??Sport Auto actually ran the car, Car & Driver quotes an estimate from AMG. See the difference. So chill out you have a great car, but it aint breaking 8 minutes.
It was reported by C&D, just as Sport Auto reported, you really don't know the difference between first and second hand sources. BTW, the C&D reporter rode with Schneider, interviewed Schneider, and he was just over 8 minutes as a passenger with Schnieder in less than ideal conditions! Now, I'm sure it's really a big lie, AMG lied that its' under 8 minutes, C&D lied that it was under 8 minutes and Sport Auto's proved it. 
I'll keep that in mind when the M3's start showing up on track days. I'll write a full report and video and that wil be a first hand source.Jimmy out for a martini
Banned
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,735
Likes: 1
CLK 63 Black Series, 2009 S550, 2011 Range Rover Supercharged, BMW F800 GS Anniv Edition
Now, I'm sure it's really a big lie, AMG lied that its' under 8 minutes, C&D lied that it was under 8 minutes and Sport Auto's proved it. I'll keep that in mind when the M3's start showing up on track days. I'll write a full report and video and that wil be a first hand source.
Jimmy out for a martini
I'll keep that in mind when the M3's start showing up on track days. I'll write a full report and video and that wil be a first hand source.Jimmy out for a martini
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
From: living in Paris, France and San Diego ...
2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupé
Last month I had the pleasure of being in an AMG "Ice Taxi" (C63 base with roll cage, race exhaust and metal stud tires) as Bernd flung it around the AMG lake in Sweden. He's both a smart and agressive driver.
There are three factors that add up to a great lap time: the car, the driver, and the support team that sets up the car just right. I can believe that all pulling together the BS did ring up 7:45 on the 'ring.
But it's also true that a time of 8:05 is fast indeed. That would have been pole position in an F1 race as late as the mid '60s.
There are three factors that add up to a great lap time: the car, the driver, and the support team that sets up the car just right. I can believe that all pulling together the BS did ring up 7:45 on the 'ring.
But it's also true that a time of 8:05 is fast indeed. That would have been pole position in an F1 race as late as the mid '60s.
Last edited by neilbo75; Feb 15, 2009 at 10:17 AM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,621
Likes: 55
From: Naperville, IL/Chicago
2008 CLK63 Black Series 2012 C63 Black Series 2014 SLS Black Series
Why doesn't someone go over to a BMW/M3 board and invite a couple of E92 M3's to the Willow event this Thursday, Lukes BS is stock, let do our own head-to-head comparo.
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 354
Likes: 45
From: Chicago
e55
Bones, OK your right, and Sport Auto's driver is faster than Bernd Schneider in spite of the fact he's a full time magazine hack. It was reported by C&D, just as Sport Auto reported, you really don't know the difference between first and second hand sources. BTW, the C&D reporter rode with Schneider, interviewed Schneider, and he was just over 8 minutes as a passenger with Schnieder in less than ideal conditions! Now, I'm sure it's really a big lie, AMG lied that its' under 8 minutes, C&D lied that it was under 8 minutes and Sport Auto's proved it. I'll keep that in mind when the M3's start showing up on track days. I'll write a full report and video and that wil be a first hand source.
Jimmy out for a martini
It was reported by C&D, just as Sport Auto reported, you really don't know the difference between first and second hand sources. BTW, the C&D reporter rode with Schneider, interviewed Schneider, and he was just over 8 minutes as a passenger with Schnieder in less than ideal conditions! Now, I'm sure it's really a big lie, AMG lied that its' under 8 minutes, C&D lied that it was under 8 minutes and Sport Auto's proved it. I'll keep that in mind when the M3's start showing up on track days. I'll write a full report and video and that wil be a first hand source.Jimmy out for a martini
The problem is Jimmy, I do not believe your source. AMG official response is sub 8 minutes. Why not just use the 7:45. Was it a euro spec Black Series, or was it tweaked with non production specs( different tires that are not used on production cars, etc....). Also you cite that with C/D Schneider was just over 8 minutes, so where does C/D get the sub 8 minutes from? Oh yeah from an interview, from the ride along that was over 8 minutes, and them cooking up some number taking into account the less than ideal weather conditions, extra weight, the car will be faster if its Mars Red, etc.... Thats a great way to come up with/verify the number of 7:45 from AMG
I really dont care about the M3. Enjoy your car Jimmy!!!!!
Last edited by Bones; Feb 15, 2009 at 10:32 AM. Reason: ...
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,309
Likes: 86
From: Cave Creek, AZ and Newport Beach
'22 G 63 AMG, '21 GLE 53 AMG, '20 NSX
The problem is Jimmy, I do not believe your source. AMG official response is sub 8 minutes. Why not just use the 7:45. Was it a euro spec Black Series, or was it tweaked with non production specs( different tires that are not used on production cars, etc....). Also you cite that with C/D Schneider was just over 8 minutes, so where does C/D get the sub 8 minutes from? Oh yeah from an interview, from the ride along that was over 8 minutes, and them cooking up some number taking into account the less than ideal weather conditions, extra weight, the car will be faster if its Mars Red, etc.... Thats a great way to come up with/verify the number of 7:45 from AMG
I really dont care about the M3. Enjoy your car Jimmy!!!!!
I really dont care about the M3. Enjoy your car Jimmy!!!!!
The euro spec BS except for sport seats and carbon fibre door panels which drop the weight 45 lbs,
it's the same car. I've driven a euro spec BS and it's the same including the Pirelli tires. Your insinuation that it was a "ringer" 
makes no sense given the AMG's reputation of its products. They are very conservative and thats why they state under 8 minutes. FWIW, AMG states that the SL65 BS is less than 8 minutes also, and it's reported 7:39! Look anything around 8 minutes is really fast and most likely a very skilled driver. I think it's good to be skeptical and not believe everything printed, but there is a time when the you have to accept certain facts. You've chosen to not believe some of them. I came to a different conclusion based upon my experience. Many good drivers on this board who've tracked their BS and found them to be equal or better than GT3s' on the track. I don't think anyone would argue that a 7GT3 isn't a sub 8minute car. You'll find that the reported 7:45 is very close to the 9GT3 times.
My apologies to my referance that the Sport Auto driver being a hack, I was referring not to his driving skills but writing and attmepting some double- entendre humor
. Afterall, he might be the Stig!Jimmy
Banned
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,735
Likes: 1
CLK 63 Black Series, 2009 S550, 2011 Range Rover Supercharged, BMW F800 GS Anniv Edition
Ha - I'm game. They might be close to me for a lap of so....but after a couple shots down the front straight they will be long gone. Not to mention after 20 laps when the M3 will start loosing brakes and overheating. Like I said in my first post here.....it's a silly comparison. The BS is in a different league. The M3 is a great car, but no match for the BS.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,309
Likes: 86
From: Cave Creek, AZ and Newport Beach
'22 G 63 AMG, '21 GLE 53 AMG, '20 NSX
Luke,
I've put enough track miles on it, and I just had the front spoiler resprayed.
Porsche's the marque this year at Monterey Historics and I plan on showing blackie. The BS may not be as fast but is easier to drive and as much fun. The look of drivers seeing a MB in their rear view mirror is priceless.
Jimmy
I've put enough track miles on it, and I just had the front spoiler resprayed.
Porsche's the marque this year at Monterey Historics and I plan on showing blackie. The BS may not be as fast but is easier to drive and as much fun. The look of drivers seeing a MB in their rear view mirror is priceless.
Jimmy
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,068
Likes: 21
CLK63 Black Series
I couldn't care less what some magazine or tester has to say about any car. Nor does it matter what some professional driver rings out of the car. Unless it's you, the owner behind the wheel, it's nothing but second hand information. I'm certain that most people on this board will never ship their car to Germany and run the Nordschleife. And I'm also certain that most of those magazine reading types and keyboard hitting heroes would be scared to death just by sitting next to someone doing an 8 min. lap. Not to mention that when I got drives around the Ring, there were no helmets either. Watching a you tube video doesn't count, because you will never really get an idea of the elevation changes, blind turns and how narrow the road is.
One more thing. There are some people on this board who like to knock the Black Series every chance they get. What I really don't understand about that is, if you are a TRUE car enthusiast, what is not to like about this car?
One more thing. There are some people on this board who like to knock the Black Series every chance they get. What I really don't understand about that is, if you are a TRUE car enthusiast, what is not to like about this car?
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
From: Fargo, North Dakota
2012 Cayenne Turbo
The CLK63 Black is a great car but come on. Every car has its weak points. In this vehicle its disadvantages are mainly weight and the tranny.
I don't get why people would scoff at a comparison to the M3?
They are direct competitors.
BTW, comparing 'ring times can be very useful. It's a very thorough testing ground and gives some clarity as to a performance pecking order.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,621
Likes: 55
From: Naperville, IL/Chicago
2008 CLK63 Black Series 2012 C63 Black Series 2014 SLS Black Series
The CLK63 Black is a great car but come on. Every car has its weak points. In this vehicle its disadvantages are mainly weight and the tranny.
I don't get why people would scoff at a comparison to the M3?
They are direct competitors.
BTW, comparing 'ring times can be very useful. It's a very thorough testing ground and gives some clarity as to a performance pecking order.
I don't get why people would scoff at a comparison to the M3?
They are direct competitors.
BTW, comparing 'ring times can be very useful. It's a very thorough testing ground and gives some clarity as to a performance pecking order.
As fot the tranny, I'm not sure what your gripe is with the BS tranny??? Lots of sports cars are now offered with paddle shifted autos, hell F1 cars are essentially autos and it does not get any racier than F1.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,068
Likes: 21
CLK63 Black Series
The CLK63 Black is a great car but come on. Every car has its weak points. In this vehicle its disadvantages are mainly weight and the tranny.
I don't get why people would scoff at a comparison to the M3?
They are direct competitors.
BTW, comparing 'ring times can be very useful. It's a very thorough testing ground and gives some clarity as to a performance pecking order.
I don't get why people would scoff at a comparison to the M3?
They are direct competitors.
BTW, comparing 'ring times can be very useful. It's a very thorough testing ground and gives some clarity as to a performance pecking order.
I agree with you that every car has it's weak points. I never said the BS is the best, but I also never said anything bad about the M3 or any car for that matter.
I don't agree with you that an M3 is a direct competitor to the BS. If BMW would build an M3 CSL, than yes. But than again, that would be some $110K plus car.
I also agree that Ring times can be helpful in comparing cars. My comparison was not about one lap, but many laps. I'm sure the M3 can keep up with the BS, or vise versa, for a couple of laps. After that however, it shows the real difference which one was designed for extended track use and which one was for a couple of fast laps. Again, I like M cars very much. You will never hear me say anything bad about them. It's just my honest opinion when the two are compared.
Almost a Member!
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: Osterville, MA
CLK 63 AMG Black Series
M3 is more of a daily driver than the CLKBS. If you want to go out and rip it up on the track. Both cars are well suited. The M3 would be much easier to handle at the limits than the CLKBS. But, you would be the only CLKBS at the track that day. And anyone who knows the car would give you high praise for riding a Dragon without incident.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,566
Likes: 7
'14 ML BT
I bet an 8 minute lap in the passenger seat would be a real gut check.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
From: Fargo, North Dakota
2012 Cayenne Turbo
I get sick of people calling the BS weight a weak point, anyone that has ever driven one at speed knows the weight is not a dis-advantage, this car can hold its own on tight tracks or HP tracks with GT2's, GT3'3, 430 stradales, Gallardo's and Z06'S. What little it loses on braking against the lighter cars listed it makes up for on mid corner speed and gobs of torque to get you moving once back on the gas.
As fot the tranny, I'm not sure what your gripe is with the BS tranny??? Lots of sports cars are now offered with paddle shifted autos, hell F1 cars are essentially autos and it does not get any racier than F1.
As fot the tranny, I'm not sure what your gripe is with the BS tranny??? Lots of sports cars are now offered with paddle shifted autos, hell F1 cars are essentially autos and it does not get any racier than F1.
Almost a Member!
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: Osterville, MA
CLK 63 AMG Black Series
I love the CLKBS. I own one and always will. Till the next thing comes along. But the tranny sucks. No blip means Trail Brake Oversteer. In this car, I don't like that.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,309
Likes: 86
From: Cave Creek, AZ and Newport Beach
'22 G 63 AMG, '21 GLE 53 AMG, '20 NSX
Thanks for posting. I'm not sure why AMG set up the rear with "toe out" but it exagerates the oversteer of the car. For lowered cars without correcting the rear toe is even worse. This might be a contributing cause of the trail braking oversteer.
I agree that it would be nice to have a throttle blip on downshifts, but I found that by holding the left paddle while braking it seems to find the right gear
Jimmy
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 369
Likes: 3
From: CT
2008 CLK 63 Black Series, 2013 G63, 2014 RS5 Coupe, 2013 JKUR 10A
What makes them direct competitors? M3 is a $60k car with 4 seats available in coupe, conv. or sedan and has 414hp/295tq. I would think most people who bought or were seriously thinking about buying a BS were more likely to look at an M6 than an M3. C63 is more of a direct competitor to an M3.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
CLK Black
Here is my .02, feel free to take it for what it is worth.
As with any car on the track, the CLK Black has a couple of quirks that you need to get used to drive it near the limits.
I agree with the comments above that the car really hides its weight well for a 4000 lb car. As mentioned, one area that this does show up is under braking. I have found that the car likes heavy braking in a straight line allowing you to stabilize that car with the gas throught the apex and use all the torque to pull you out. This car will carry more cornering speed than most people think. It is also a car that rewards a bit of throttle patience.
Trail braking for me in this car tends to lead to overslowing at the apex. This isn't due to the lack of throttle blipping but rather lack of mechanical grip on the rear under heaving braking created by the dynamic load transfer while trail braking. You can dial some of this out if you want with the stock KW's but you may not want to.
For me, it took a few laps to stop driving the CLK Black like a Porsche.
Again, just my .02.
Out....
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,621
Likes: 55
From: Naperville, IL/Chicago
2008 CLK63 Black Series 2012 C63 Black Series 2014 SLS Black Series
I don't think cost needs to factor in when discussing if one car is competition for another car on the race track. Chevy, Dodge and Nissan have all proven they can build super cars that can compete with the best sports cars in the world for about $100k or less. The E92 M3 is a worty competitor to the Black Series for about $50k (msrp) less money. What I love about the BS over the M3 is the much more aggressive looks, the rumble of the exhaust and the fact that I am not going tp see 2 or 3 Black Series in the Valet line at my favorite Sushi place or at a cars and coffee meet, E92 M3s are a dime a dozen in my parts, you have to put a price on exclusivity.
