thebishman

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/...to/first-drive

Not a very encouraging review of the SL AMG. Let’s hope the new AMG GT is different enough to excel.

Orcbolg

Most of the reviews and driving impressions I've seen mirrored this one, especially considering the eye watering starting price.

superswiss

Sadly that's the new AMG and I wouldn't get my hopes up for the new GT. The new C63S E Performance is a 4600 lbs hulk of complicated powertrain that you most definitely don't wanna own past the factory warranty and with AWD all the fun the C63 used to be is gone. The new S63 E Performance is a 6000 lbs I don't really know what, inheriting the powertrain from the terrible GT63S E Performance. After driving the GT63SE back to back with the GT63S on the Nürburgring, I don't know what the SE is supposed to be other than a showcase for an overcomplicated powertrain that doesn't quite gel together and nobody asked for in the first place. And everything is going AWD just because some people think they need AWD because it snows a few times a year where they live and the rest of the year all this extra weight and complication has to be dragged around. Even Audi followed Lambo by releasing several RWD versions of the R8 and they were better than the AWD versions, same for the Huracan.

502Bill

I don’t want to come across as the guy wearing the lampshade, but Mercedes is force feeding change that was never asked for. I truly believe their intention is to numb the next generation into BEVs and take control over the “ownership” of their vehicles. That and software is much cheaper to design and build than actual switchgear. I hate the direction all manufacturers are taking. Its not just Mercedes. It wont be the service side of parts where profits come from. It will be subscriptions for the most mundane features we all take for granted today. I own a Chevy, Ram, BMW and Mercedes. They are all doing this. Keep your old car.

AMG 17GT

An iconic opportunity lost on this car….

Bones

General info upcoming AMG GT(2 seat only)

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-sh...gt-sports-car/

E55Greasemonkey

The SL died a slow death starting in 2003. The 2014 reboot would have saved it but by then the damage had already been done. This new "SL" is nothing more than Mercedes refusing to admit it's over, so they slapped an SL badge on an AMG GTC.

Wolfman

Not getting into this nonsense, but the convertible market has been dying for a long time, shrinking into a tiny niche for all manufacturers. These car are mostly replaced by SUV's and the SL buyer demographic dying of all age... If anything, the new SL has pushed into a younger demographic.

Wolfman

There is a reality that car enthusiasts don't want to acknowledge; the one that many customers of high-performance cars are not real enthusiasts or people that take their cars to the track. That includes lots of 911 drivers and certainly AMG ones. AMG really was always known as Autobahn rockets vs canyon carvers.
So the question is how many buyers really care about the weight or AWD. The new SL is a heavy pig but is quicker/faster than the AMG GT's and will never see a track for the soft top alone. All high performance SUV's that many are clamoring over overcome their monstrous weight with tech. It is what it is IMO.

The TopGear article makes it sound like anyone is bemoaning the move from old SL, apart from some folding hardtop fanatics. This car was not a financial success (although a fantastic top-down cruiser) but MB has turned all their convertible models into two: the AMG SL for the high-end and upcoming CLE for coach class.
I can't understand the whining about the rear seats; the SL had them before and nobody complained about them on the 911 cab. They simply serve the purpose of handling shopping bags, golf bag, clothes or some luggage...

The price is clearly too high for what you get IMO but is part of their new strategy and will only go up from here. The AMG is ultimately the base model, stepping up to the Maybach SL and then to the Mystic Speedster.

But to replace the only AMG model that had the ambition for true track performance and kick the 911 off its pedestal, the car has done phenomenally well in its short lifecycle. After all, Porsche has been refining their 911 for countless decades. By AMG standards, these cars have been incredible light weights and it feels like a travesty that they toss that car out and give a run of the mill porker replacement.

JSwan724

This is a segway into the burning question ..Will we ever see another high performance car for the retail customer?

The upcoming GT coupe looks like the spare parts bin was raided.

chassis

What do you mean by “retail”? Does it relate to price?

Drone_S213

Would you consider the faster BMW M4 CSL over your C63s? I would miss the cantankerous V8 rumble but at least folks have something to consider over the final edition C63s and at $140K the bimmer is cheaper than any Porsche 911 GTx track focused weapon. I have a feeling the new AMG GT Coupe will be too expensive and too heavy.

AMG 17GT

“Angry kitchen appliance grill” lol.

superswiss

As a track weapon perhaps, but not for how I use my C63S. The CSL is just too barebones and designed for the track. It's the same reason I don't have an AMG GT. They are great on the track, loved driving the Black Series at the Nürburgring last summer, but on the road the C63 is simply the better and more usable coupe. Cars designed to chase fast lap times at the Nürburgring rarely work well on the road. The other thing that irks me about the current M models is the use of a torque converter automatic. It is much better tuned in the CSL, but you still don't have that solid connection feel that you get from a clutch. AMG still understands this with their use of the MCT and DCT, while BMW has given up on the DCT. If I were to get an M4, it would likely be the non competition model with manual transmission and RWD.

Wolfman

Love the DCT in the GTC but have to admit that the slushbox in the BMW absolutely blows the MCT out of the water. BMW just has done a fantastic job mating the ZF to their engines; better than any other maker. Our M8 delivered performance our W213 E63s just couldn't match, tranny included...

superswiss

BMW does have some of the best ZF implementations yes, but I have to disagree with your assessment of blowing the MCT out of the water. Granted I have not much experience with the E63S and it's the first use of the 9-MCT by AMG as far as I know, but in my '19 C63S the 9-MCT is at another level, especially in Race mode, and its even better now after a couple of updates than when I first took delivery. Perhaps, the fact that it doesn't have to keep a second driveshaft moving is part of it. I even prefer the 9-MCT in my C63 over the DCT overall, because a DCT is only fast when shifting sequentially with the next gear correctly pre-selected, but whenever it has to shift out of sequence you get an interruption of torque while it hunts for the correct gear. That is not the case with the MCT as every gear ratio can simply be selected via a permutation of the seven clutches. AMG has tuned it such that most gear changes simply require one clutch to open and another one to close just like in a DCT, but the MCT has the fastest kickdown I've ever experienced. It drops 5 gears in the blink of an eye where as the DCT first has to move shift forks to get the right gear selected, especially slow if the required gear is on the same shaft as the current gear. I have heard that the 9-MCT in the E63 isn't quite there yet. Not surprisingly given the early implementation. BMW M didn't get to where they are with the ZF8 right away, either. The initial M5 has a notoriously laggy implementation, so much so that BMW M went back to the drawing board for the M3/4 and overhauled the software, but I don't know what generation of the software the M8 has. Frankly, the M5, M8 and E63 target a different audience. These are large and heavy executive barges, but BMW tunes theirs to be sportier. I'm personally not a fan of the E63. Much prefer the GT 63S in that class, much better tuned than the E63.

Drone_S213

While waiting 15-months for my AMG Wagon was looking at a Manual M2 at nearby dealership in Texas. Instead bought the wife a 2020 CRV Hybrid which we keep now at Georgia Residence along with Son's 2021 Kia Soul. (Gifted the daughter wife's old 2019 Buick Encore after she graduated MIT for her first car now in Maryland. Dear wife upset the balance of power between GA and NM residences and my MASTERPLAN when she did not accept a "Surprise" 2017 Chevy SS sedan with an automatic that I kept in NM garage for about 8-months while working nonstop in Oil Fields to pay for unexpected MIT tuition when daughter had a full ride to GA Tech and I had initially retired from Engineering in 2015).

For 2023 I think the M2 and M4 have same engine with available manual transmission. Personally if I was 27-years younger before my ball and chain and gifted kids, I would get the M4 CSL and have a beater manual Miata or Subaru Crosstrek like I leased exclusively off-road at the Missile Range 2013-2015. (I did drive it once from NM-GA-NYC roundtrip so Son could go to his beloved Nintendo Store near Rockefeller Center for a Day then picked up 4 exclusive Kirby T-Shirts. I am so glad Columbia University rejected his Application so I could stay retired...he will transfer to GA Tech this summer).

The AMG Wagon is my last new car purchase. If I flipped it would get a manual RS3, M2, or the last manual Subaru Crosstrek to carry hunting gear between NM and friend's private land in GA, SC, and Florida.

Wolfman

The first F90 M5 had poor launch control. Wait too long and that thing stuttered and launched poorly. Funky launch control with an automatic. The M8 has a later version of the ZF; same as the M5 LCI (facelift) model and both do easy sub 3 second launches. I am not sure about version differences of the 9 speed MCT. Ours was a 2018 but I drove a 2020 as well as they shifted identically. Subjectively, that is.
The 7 speed MCT sucked and the 9 speed made a world of difference. Strongly suggest try a BMW M-Car for the heck of it. Program the M2 button to this: S3, Sports Plus Engine, Sport Steering, Comfort Suspension, DSC OFF 4WD. That's your manual shift mode. Assume you will be surprised by the tranny...

superswiss

Yes, launch control is one aspect. With a torque converter there isn't true launch control. It's just computer assisted torque braking, holding the torque converter at the stall speed. The MCT has proper launch control with clutch drop. I totally agree with you on the 7 speed MCT. It sucked, and there are differences with the 9 speed MCT. Much rawer in the C63 than other models. Kicks you in the back in Sport+ and snaps gears like a DCT when driven in anger, but at the same time it can slur gears if you just wanna drive comfortably. Trust me, I won't be surprised by the tranny. A torque converter no matter how well tuned numbs the experience due to the fluid coupling during a shift. They try their best with the lockup clutch, but it's simply not the same. The upside is it has much better low speed behavior if that's something that bothers you. The MCT being rawer has a tendency to jerk if you don't modulate the throttle to smooth it out, but that is part of what keeps it interesting. I've driven manual transmissions for almost 20 years and a torque converter just doesn't live up to the direct coupling a clutch offers. Interestingly the ZF8 could be paired with a wet clutch like the MCT, but I don't know why BMW M didn't go that route.

Wolfman

Back to my original comment, you are describing your personal preferences and driving enjoyment, not the performance of the transmission. I assume that launch control isn't part of your daily driving
So I understand how the C63s certainly feels fast and raw on the road, it just isn't that quick. Just like our GTC. That car is just a joy to drive for a number of reasons, including the DCT.

superswiss

Yes, of course I'm talking about an engaging and emotional driving experience. I'm not sure what exactly you are talking about and how the transmission factors into that. The C63 and your GTC are RWD, while the M8 is AWD, so obviously the M8 is easier to drive fast plus it has 100 HP more than my C63, although it's heaver, too and 0-60 is in the low 4 seconds whereas the C63 is mid to high 3s. But with RWD it obviously always comes down to traction. My prior Audi RS5 with DCT and less power was easier to drive fast, too in any condition thanks to AWD, but I'm not racing on the street and RWD is ultimately more engaging and fun.

Wolfman

That's why I compared our E63s and M8, both of these are AWD and similar power and weight. You disagreed with my comment about the ZF being better. To me it is.
0-60 on the M8 is sub 3, not low 4's FWIW

superswiss

Fair enough. There seem to be plenty of E63 owners that loathe the MCT. I'm guessing you prefer the smooth performance that the ZF offers. I find that uninvolving, numb and clinical, but to each their own.

Wolfman

Agreed. Couldn't imagine the ZF in the GTC either. For the M-car it works

Bones

More camo removed


https://www.motor1.com/news/657846/2...first-edition/