CCB brake noise
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... Iron rotors are better on track for ‘track adicts’ in that it is far cheaper to replace an iron rotor than a CCB one ... Caveat: if you only go to the track about 3-4 times/year and are cognizant of how to minimise the risks of wearing out a set of CCB rotors, then they are also fine to use at an HPDE. Also, if you don’t give a damn about costs, then again, just run the CCBs if you want.
IMO, the biggest issue with track use of CCBs is the fact that the only truly accurate way to measure their "wear" (i..e, chemical degradation due to heat) is via the very expensive Carboteq tool (assuming you have the rotors with the applicable markings).
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While the expenditure "profile" is much more peaky with CCBs, there is growing evidence that they may actually be less expensive (over time) than their iron counterparts, especially when you consider the labor involved with multiple iron-rotor replacements. We still need more data, but that's where it appears to be heading.
IMO, the biggest issue with track use of CCBs is the fact that the only truly accurate way to measure their "wear" (i..e, chemical degradation due to heat) is via the very expensive Carboteq tool (assuming you have the rotors with the applicable markings).
IMO, the biggest issue with track use of CCBs is the fact that the only truly accurate way to measure their "wear" (i..e, chemical degradation due to heat) is via the very expensive Carboteq tool (assuming you have the rotors with the applicable markings).
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To be fair they don't quite seem to care as long as they aren't breaking rules, it is true (like you mentioned) they ruined the lounge with this chat system, what was wrong with keeping the forum : (
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I tape-blocked the TiKT ducts and used a local straight stretch of divided 4-lane highway that has clear farmer's fields on either side for quite a distance. There's little traffic late at night so I did it then. Being dark, I was also able to see "all around" me so I knew I wouldn't be interfering with other drivers (or attracting police attention).
Funny thing is that I find the "pad plating" on the rotors gets wiped off at the next track day so now I just live with some noise. I find that the brakes are quiet when cold or "track hot" but there's an "in-between temp" where they'll squeal a bit. It's been postulated that one can tell when grandpa's "been naughty" by the squealing brakes when he approaches the driveway after a "keep it lubed" drive. #;-))
Funny thing is that I find the "pad plating" on the rotors gets wiped off at the next track day so now I just live with some noise. I find that the brakes are quiet when cold or "track hot" but there's an "in-between temp" where they'll squeal a bit. It's been postulated that one can tell when grandpa's "been naughty" by the squealing brakes when he approaches the driveway after a "keep it lubed" drive. #;-))
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2019 C63CS
Originally Posted by thebishman
Sorry but I think you’re 100% wrong about this:
CCBs are brilliant on a street car. The rotors will last the life of the car as long as you’re careful changing out wheels and replace the pads when they’re 2/3rds worn, and they keep the wheels so much cleaner than with iron rotors. Plus since they’re always larger than a set of irons, they add to the looks of the vehicle imho. As we’ve discussed here though, they do need at least a ‘Street burnish’ in order to enhance their cold stopping ability and decrease any noise.
Iron rotors are better on track for ‘track adicts’ in that it is far cheaper to replace an iron rotor than a CCB one, along with the pads being cheaper and the huge amount of ‘brake dust’ isn’t an issue. On track braking performance, (as it always is) is dependent on the tyres, and if the iron brakes are well designed with adequate cooling, their performance characteristics will not reduce with prolonged use. This is why most highly experienced; (meaning quick) HPDE drivers will tend to gravitate towards iron brakes. Oh, and since most iron rotors are less diameter than their CCB counterparts you can run smaller wheels which gives you far greater and cheaper choices for tyres.
Caveat: if you only go to the track about 3-4 times/year and are cognizant of how to minimise the risks of wearing out a set of CCB rotors, then they are also fine to use at an HPDE. Also, if you don’t give a damn about costs, then again, just run the CCBs if you want.
CCBs are brilliant on a street car. The rotors will last the life of the car as long as you’re careful changing out wheels and replace the pads when they’re 2/3rds worn, and they keep the wheels so much cleaner than with iron rotors. Plus since they’re always larger than a set of irons, they add to the looks of the vehicle imho. As we’ve discussed here though, they do need at least a ‘Street burnish’ in order to enhance their cold stopping ability and decrease any noise.
Iron rotors are better on track for ‘track adicts’ in that it is far cheaper to replace an iron rotor than a CCB one, along with the pads being cheaper and the huge amount of ‘brake dust’ isn’t an issue. On track braking performance, (as it always is) is dependent on the tyres, and if the iron brakes are well designed with adequate cooling, their performance characteristics will not reduce with prolonged use. This is why most highly experienced; (meaning quick) HPDE drivers will tend to gravitate towards iron brakes. Oh, and since most iron rotors are less diameter than their CCB counterparts you can run smaller wheels which gives you far greater and cheaper choices for tyres.
Caveat: if you only go to the track about 3-4 times/year and are cognizant of how to minimise the risks of wearing out a set of CCB rotors, then they are also fine to use at an HPDE. Also, if you don’t give a damn about costs, then again, just run the CCBs if you want.
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From: LaLaLand
2015 GLK350 & 2020 C300
To be fair, iron rotors are perfectly fine for track. The AMG GT3 cars race with iron. If anything, it is AMG best interests to encourage you to track Carbon ceramics as you'll wear them out quicker and need to buy more😂
I would love if AMG sold their calipers with plating or anodizing. I got rid of the bronze gold paint and had my calipers painted in black.
I would love if AMG sold their calipers with plating or anodizing. I got rid of the bronze gold paint and had my calipers painted in black.
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2019 C63CS
Yeah, proper brake cooling goes a long way. Even less of a reason for CCBs. Paying $5k-$10k so you don't have brake dust on a street car is rather wild to be honest. I'm 6 years into my current car and on the third set of iron rotors which tanks to FCP Euro has cost me less than half of what the CCB upgrade would have cost me, so even the lifetime of the CCBs at that cost is a tough sell. Only worth for those who pay $4k and up to let a dealership change their iron bakes.
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While the expenditure "profile" is much more peaky with CCBs, there is growing evidence that they may actually be less expensive (over time) than their iron counterparts, especially when you consider the labor involved with multiple iron-rotor replacements. We still need more data, but that's where it appears to be heading.
IMO, the biggest issue with track use of CCBs is the fact that the only truly accurate way to measure their "wear" (i..e, chemical degradation due to heat) is via the very expensive Carboteq tool (assuming you have the rotors with the applicable markings).
IMO, the biggest issue with track use of CCBs is the fact that the only truly accurate way to measure their "wear" (i..e, chemical degradation due to heat) is via the very expensive Carboteq tool (assuming you have the rotors with the applicable markings).
While I grant you that the current 3rd(?) generation of CCBs are far more durable than previous generations, you still have to be extremely cautious not to overheat them and accelerate oxidation. Brake cooling and early replacement of pads is paramount.
That being said: ‘track rats’ who go to a road course many, many times per year will routinely replace the OEM caliper/rotor setup with a true track worthy ‘BBK’ such as one from AP Racing, regardless of whether the car came with CCBs or iron rotors.
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While I grant you that the current 3rd(?) generation of CCBs are far more durable than previous generations, you still have to be extremely cautious not to overheat them and accelerate oxidation. Brake cooling and early replacement of pads is paramount.
That being said: ‘track rats’ who go to a road course many, many times per year will routinely replace the OEM caliper/rotor setup with a true track worthy ‘BBK’ such as one from AP Racing, regardless of whether the car came with CCBs or iron rotors.
That being said: ‘track rats’ who go to a road course many, many times per year will routinely replace the OEM caliper/rotor setup with a true track worthy ‘BBK’ such as one from AP Racing, regardless of whether the car came with CCBs or iron rotors.
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I guess forum members are also worried about the chipping issue on some affected models that CCBs might be prone to on certain models: https://mbworld.org/forums/w213-amg/...ke-rotors.html
WIS has specs on the allowable chips and other wear/damage, similar to the radial-hole cracks with iron rotors.
I worry more about chipping the edge of a CCB rotor when removing/installing wheels, especially with the minimal clearance on the front wheels. One needs to be very careful and steady. Personally, I raise to the appropriate height with my hoist then use my shop stool (with pneumatic
seat-height adjuster) to carefully "wheel the wheel" into position.
IMO, if you have CCB rotors, you _always_ want to "photo before" then check their condition before leaving the shop if any service involved removing your wheel(s).
CCB rotors are extremely hard. One forum member has reported that the CCB rotor surface bore no scratches after accidentally depleting the pad and hitting the metal backing. I accidentally did that on my C63 S with iron rotors and, while it still stopped surprisingly well (!!!), it did seriously score the iron rotor surfaces.
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To the comment in that thread "... as even a small chip or dent will cause structural failure if you have any heat buildup."
WIS has specs on the allowable chips and other wear/damage, similar to the radial-hole cracks with iron rotors.
I worry more about chipping the edge of a CCB rotor when removing/installing wheels, especially with the minimal clearance on the front wheels. One needs to be very careful and steady. Personally, I raise to the appropriate height with my hoist then use my shop stool (with pneumatic
seat-height adjuster) to carefully "wheel the wheel" into position.
IMO, if you have CCB rotors, you _always_ want to "photo before" then check their condition before leaving the shop if any service involved removing your wheel(s).
CCB rotors are extremely hard. One forum member has reported that the CCB rotor surface bore no scratches after accidentally depleting the pad and hitting the metal backing. I accidentally did that on my C63 S with iron rotors and, while it still stopped surprisingly well (!!!), it did seriously score the iron rotor surfaces.
WIS has specs on the allowable chips and other wear/damage, similar to the radial-hole cracks with iron rotors.
I worry more about chipping the edge of a CCB rotor when removing/installing wheels, especially with the minimal clearance on the front wheels. One needs to be very careful and steady. Personally, I raise to the appropriate height with my hoist then use my shop stool (with pneumatic
seat-height adjuster) to carefully "wheel the wheel" into position.
IMO, if you have CCB rotors, you _always_ want to "photo before" then check their condition before leaving the shop if any service involved removing your wheel(s).
CCB rotors are extremely hard. One forum member has reported that the CCB rotor surface bore no scratches after accidentally depleting the pad and hitting the metal backing. I accidentally did that on my C63 S with iron rotors and, while it still stopped surprisingly well (!!!), it did seriously score the iron rotor surfaces.
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Yeah, proper brake cooling goes a long way. Even less of a reason for CCBs. Paying $5k-$10k so you don't have brake dust on a street car is rather wild to be honest. I'm 6 years into my current car and on the third set of iron rotors which tanks to FCP Euro has cost me less than half of what the CCB upgrade would have cost me, so even the lifetime of the CCBs at that cost is a tough sell. Only worth for those who pay $4k and up to let a dealership change their iron bakes.
You're correct that heat management becomes much more valuable with CCB rotors, since it's the heat that wears them out. That's why I invested in the TiKT brake-cooling ducts before tracking the car.
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Ah, yes ... the FCP replacement strategy does significantly alter the situation. Nice if they have iron rotors for your car. In my case (GTR Pro), it'd involve first doing a conversion to iron.
You're correct that heat management becomes much more valuable with CCB rotors, since it's the heat that wears them out. That's why I invested in the TiKT brake-cooling ducts before tracking the car.
You're correct that heat management becomes much more valuable with CCB rotors, since it's the heat that wears them out. That's why I invested in the TiKT brake-cooling ducts before tracking the car.
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2019 C63CS
As I understand it, overheating CCBs can result in permanent damage. When overheating iron brakes, you generally just overheat the pads, but when you let them cool down, they come back, and they are cheap to replace. With CCBs the fibers can burn off at very high temperatures, so it's physically destructive. I mean there are ways to destroy an iron rotor as well, but they are generally more resilient. It's not unusual to cook a set of CCBs during a weekend track event. Tracking is a costly hobby if you wanna do it right, so as said, many opt for iron rotors as they couldn't afford it otherwise.
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As I understand it, overheating CCBs can result in permanent damage. When overheating iron brakes, you generally just overheat the pads, but when you let them cool down, they come back, and they are cheap to replace. With CCBs the fibers can burn off at very high temperatures, so it's physically destructive. I mean there are ways to destroy an iron rotor as well, but they are generally more resilient. It's not unusual to cook a set of CCBs during a weekend track event. Tracking is a costly hobby if you wanna do it right, so as said, many opt for iron rotors as they couldn't afford it otherwise.
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From: LaLaLand
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Ah, yes ... the FCP replacement strategy does significantly alter the situation. Nice if they have iron rotors for your car. In my case (GTR Pro), it'd involve first doing a conversion to iron.
You're correct that heat management becomes much more valuable with CCB rotors, since it's the heat that wears them out. That's why I invested in the TiKT brake-cooling ducts before tracking the car.
You're correct that heat management becomes much more valuable with CCB rotors, since it's the heat that wears them out. That's why I invested in the TiKT brake-cooling ducts before tracking the car.
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2019 C63CS
Yes, there are a few companies that refurbish CCBs. One such company is REBRAKE. They guarantee for them to hold up even on the track and the process is outlined on their website. They are refurbished using Silica. They are not rebuilding the carbon fiber. They are adding a new friction layer made from Silica and using high-temperature to fuse it to the rest of the rotor. They can repair cracks as well.
https://rebrakeusa.com/the-process
https://rebrakeusa.com/the-process
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This is NOT an "oops I got them hot once and now they're scrap" type of thing. Our local track is _very_ hard on brakes so my front rotors are likely regularly hitting 500+ deg C (I measured over 650 deg C on my C63 S's iron rotors when I did a quick stop to check tire-tread temps, with no cool-down). I record the readings from my Carboteq tool after every track day and they wearing very well. I love the fact that they're so unflappable with zero brake fade, etc.
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Out Of Control!!
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From: San Francisco Bay Area
2019 C63CS
I've never heard of this with modern-day CCB rotors (i.e., those used by AMG, Porsche, etc. that have the Carboteq measurement numbers). This may have been true with some of the earlier CCBs, but I see lots of cars with CCBs at track days and people run them because they work so well.
BTW, on a somewhat related side note, are you aware that the EU is considering legislation to ban carbon fiber due to the hazardous dust it produces during disposal? It's becoming the new asbestos. That'll be interesting for brake etc. technology in the future.
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As you know, it comes down to cooling. I don't have stats, but I know of people who managed to cook modern CCBs. Just because a street performance car can be ordered with CCBs doesn't mean it has adequate cooling for track duty.
BTW, on a somewhat related side note, are you aware that the EU is considering legislation to ban carbon fiber due to the hazardous dust it produces during disposal? It's becoming the new asbestos. That'll be interesting for brake etc. technology in the future.
BTW, on a somewhat related side note, are you aware that the EU is considering legislation to ban carbon fiber due to the hazardous dust it produces during disposal? It's becoming the new asbestos. That'll be interesting for brake etc. technology in the future.
