Green E-300 DT

Thought you were stateside.

I noticed this summer when going and coming from my camp at Minaki Ontario, that I did not see many MBZs.
There were a couple in Kenora, but they had, for the most part, out-of-province plates.

Don't worry, the E class Bluetecs will be there soon even if they are not there now, I'm sure.

Is it possible to find a deal there where the CDI sedans are somewhat scarce?

harkgar

Diesels vehicles are plentiful in Ontario, from the Ford Powerstrokes, GM Duramax engines to the Benz CDi and the VW TDi. In fact 50% of VW cars with available diesel options had been bought that way. Virtually all Excursions were sold with the big turbo diesel option before they stopped building them.

There are fewer Mercedes CDis due to costs. People of means do not know enough about these gems to appreciate them and penny pinchers cannot afford them. Hence the small number of CDis in North America.

I am at two minds about the new Bluetec. It certainly is great value, about half the price of a E-63 in Toronto. I like the speed of the AMG cars though.

Talbot

Actually, that's ALABAMA, not Indiana.

jimbo1mcm

The first poster on this thread asked about a 2006 vs 2007 cdi. The thread degenerated into unbelievable side issues, including the now familiar, Alan Vs. Green debates. Let's stay on the subject. For the original poster, I would agree that if you can find a 2006 configured about the way you want it, it would be a very good, discounted deal. If the dealer can install the additional items you desire, I would get the 2006. The new v6 Bluetech has to still be proven.

harkgar

The fact so many MB vehicles are built in the USA means that the built quality is high.

harkgar

I could not have put it better myself. Bluetec owners please come forward and tell us their experience.

I am thinking of test driving one this Saturday.

Green E-300 DT

Have you ever noticed that the people who are running down the new always seem to have the old?
Do you suppose that it is only human nature?

I am sharp enough to know that the newer CDI is better than my older '99 E-300 DT.

Like I said earlier, after more individuals like us have these newer models and become
more familiar with them, will we get a truer picture of their true worth.

Let us know what you think after driving both the supposedly better older CDI and the newer Bluetec.

harkgar

300 DT:

You are right. Familiarity and ability to do minor repairs are important considerations for most car owners. The only worry about the Bluetec system is the complexity needed for it to run clean. For example, with my 1999 E55 the check engine light came on when the oxygen sensor died and I had to spend $300 to change it parts and labor. This "fault" has nothing to do with the engine but is merely an emission issue. I would suspect the Bluetec system is even more onerous when it comes to repairs. My 1986 560 SEL had her first oxygen sensor changed only a few years ago and no light came on. It simply ran rough.

My MB technician told me in newer cars (under 5 years) there are about 200 things monitored under the check engine code most of them to do with emission. Owners of older diesels do not need to worry so much. No particulate filters or catalytic converters to clog up or poision when you burn things other than diesel.

With the new system you are forced to do repairs in case your engine is going to burn up.

CE750

Let me put it this way...

Hell would freeze over, and they'd have to take my keys from my cold dead hands before I trade in my I-6 Iron block CDI with Renntech tuning (420+ ft/lb torque) for a V6 aluminum block.. The 05 and 06 CDI is a tried and tested motor for million mile engines all over Europe. The engine will very likely outlast the chassis. The V6 is unlikely to last 1/4 as long in my humble view.

In the end, the variable rate of expansion of Aluminum vs Iron and the integration of both into one block is not going to be a long terms good thing.

Lastly, I have it from higher up at MBUSA (through a dealer friend) that the transition to the V6 from the I6 was STRICTLY A COST CUTTING MEASURE. All of the Bluetech, and CDI tuning modifications that were done to improve the performance of the V6 over the I6 were actually tested first and worked on the I6. But the cost of making them was going to be too high, and they also had plans to include them into the newer SUV chassis which cannot fit the I6 block, so a high level strategic decision was made to go to a V6.

lkchris

The V6 proved pretty durable in Laredo, didn't it?

So, somehow the same group that produced the previous engine can't possibly get it right next time?

The new engine has iron liners.

The "cost saving" you're so excited about is that they can make V6 and V8 engines with the same tooling. And, they do. Just like the gas engines.

Deutz and probably others have made aluminum diesels for decades.

Keep your car, it's great as I know, but be more informed and deal less in fantasy and fear.

harkgar

Mr Green,

I replied to you a couple of days ago but the message got bounced back somehow (delivery failure). I shall try again later.

Green E-300 DT

Couldn't have said it as well myself.

Additionally, I would say . . .

How much more torque does Renntech tuning or any other tuner
wind up when they do their thing to the new Bluetec 3.0L V6?

Remember, the Bluetec V6 begins with 388 ft/lb, not 369 ft/lb like the CDI 3.2L I-6.

I recall that someone here said he believed that after tuning, the new
Bluetec wound up with 466 ft/lb. If that be the case, I rest my case.

Even though the CDI I-6s are good, I doubt that they could stand up to 30 days at Laredo running at 145 mph (4305 rpm) IF they can even go that fast, which I doubt, given the fact that the 2005-2006 CDI vehicles do not have 388 ft/lb torque nor that taller 10 percent overdrive gearing afforded by the 7-G transmission.

With that taller gearing, the Bluetecs are turning only 3800 rpm at 145 mph.

Let's not forget that the four-banger Honda Accord diesel is aluminum also.

Didn't Honda also run their cars flat out at 140 mph for quite some long distance?

harkgar

I cannot make up my mind yet but am saving. The 2 old cars are running great but a new car, like a new woman, often has this special attraction. Oops! Hope my wife is not reading this.

CE750

It's one thing to drive at a constant speed (more or less) and put a 100,000 miles on your car inside of a month. It's another to drive it in real world, stop and go, engine start/stop (worse wear time of the life of an engine), and shifts up/down of the trans.

There are 1,000,000 mile CDI's in Germany with the I-5 / I-6 power plant, I doubt we'll see any 1,000,000 aluminum block engines. The iron sleeve will only delay the inevitable.

Arguing this pointless however, as only time will tell.

Alan Smithee

OK guys, here's a comparison between the two. Take it for what it's worth; obviously two cars tested years apart (or possibly manufacturers' numbers). Interesting to note that the I6 is down a few MPH on top speed (still over 150, though), and not quite as quick, but has better economy and cleaner emissions (the V6 is NOT a Bluetec). Also interesting that there is no significant weight savings with the V6.

http://www.topgear.com/CarServlet?ev...ull&rCode=null

Green E-300 DT

Shifting up and down doesn't wear the engine. It can be hard on the tranny however.

But MBZ must figure that the 7-G tranny can handle it, as they are now using
that transmission behind the E-63 which they say has 465 ft/lb torque.
Also, that E-63 is a relatively high rpm powerplant, with maximum horsepower
and torque at much higher rpms than the Bluetec.

As you say, time will tell.

Where did you get the information about 1M mile CDIs running 1 million miles in Germany?
Don't you mean one million kilometers?

Green E-300 DT

Nothing comes up.

I didn't know that MBZ made any V6 diesels that were not Bluetecs.

When did they do that?

I question that "over 150" mph.
That would be 4450 rpm, and by then, the I-6 is way past its horsepower and torque peaks.

Alan Smithee

Link still works for me. Anyway, here's the data:

It's from Top Gear magazine. The V6 has been sold overseas as a CDI...without the Bluetec filters...for a couple years now. Figures on the left are from a 10/03 I6 CDI w/5-speed, on the right from a 7/06 V6 CDI w/7-speed.

Mercedes-Benz E-Class3.2TD E320 CDI Elegance Saloon 4d 3222cc auto
Mercedes-Benz E-Class3.0TD E320 CDI Elegance Saloon 4d 2987cc 7G-Tronic Maximum speed (MPH) 151 155
0-62mph (seconds) 7.7 6.8
Euro emissions standard 03 04
Litres / 100KM (urban) 9 10
Litres / 100KM (extra-urban) 5 6
Litres / 100KM (combined) 7 7
Miles per gallon (MPG) (urban) 30 27
Miles per gallon (MPG) (extra-urban) 52 50
Miles per gallon (MPG) (combined) 41 39
Carbon dioxide (CO2) 183 194

Alan Smithee

Current V6 diesel utility vehicles (ML-, GL-, R-class) sold here in the US aren't Bluetecs yet, either...

Green E-300 DT

There you go again!

Where do you get your mis-information?

So, all those vehicles (ML, GL, and R-class) including the E-class that were on display at the greater
Los Angeles Auto Show last week and had the word Bluetec on their backsides were phoney?

Alan Smithee

In a word...yes. Like countless other cars on display at the show, they are not currently for sale...check the MBUSA website...the only Bluetec is the E-class.

Edit: Since I know it's very hard for you to believe me, here's a link for you. The ML-, GL-, and R-classes are considered trucks and have lower federal emissions requirements, so Bluetec isn't necessary for them yet.

http://www.mbusa.com/campaigns/alter...fuels/index.do

harkgar

There are 3 different versions of the same V-6 engine:

1) The new 24 valves DOHC V-6 alloy engine has been out for 1-2 years in Europe without the whole allotment of 3 Bluetec "filters" now sold in the USA.

2) The "Bluetec" cars currently imported into America is the engine above with a particulate filter and 2 cats but without "Ad Blue" urea injection. You just drive the car without worrying about topping up the urine bottle.

3) Ad Blue cars are ones with everything in 2) AND urea injection. These are cars coming in 2008 and can be sold in all 50 states. These will either loose power or stop altogether if you do not top up the pee pee reservor.

Alan Smithee

You are correct as far as the E-class is concerned, but you need to add a fourth variation for the 2007 US-spec ML320 CDI and R320 CDI.

Green E-300 DT

Really?

These models are indeed available for sale, not only on the MBZ
website, but currently at dealerships as well in 45 states.

Each of the models you quoted are indeed listed for sale on the MBZ website.
In fact, many have already been delivered to customers.

They do not say on the MBZ website that they are Bluetecs.
However, each vehicle has that word on their backsides.

All these models' motors are identical to the E-320 CDI 3.0L V6s that are currently sold in the U S.

I know 'cause I saw 'em last week.

There was also a chromed powertrain on display complete with the entire exhaust system.

As an example AutoTrader lists 118 ML 320 CDIs throughout the U S.

The 2007s (all models) DO NOT have that tank for and do not need the urea fluid.
But they are indeed Bluetecs!

That's the only engine difference between the '07s and the upcoming '08s.

Green E-300 DT

'T'aint true McGee.

Remember, I have seen 'em. Have you? I didn't think so.

Still can't make your URL come up.
( http://www.topgear.com/CarServlet?ev...ull&rCode=null )