rlucas

What are the pro's & con's? Which should I buy and why? The new technology scares me a bit after my 99 ML experience (bad) but the 06 has a rebate? Any advice?

Alan Smithee

Since nobody has taken delivery of a Bluetec yet, from a performance or economy standpoint, it's hard to say...but they have similar power, weight, and preliminary EPA economy estimates, so it's probably fair to say there isn't a significant benefit either way in those regards.

I bought a CDI three months ago, deciding not to wait for the Bluetec for a few reasons:

-Knowing power and economy would be similar, the puchase deal, promo interest rate, and rebate were too good to pass up.

-I didn't care for the 2007 face-lift, however subtle.

-With cars having to have 7,500 miles before entering CA, it would be sometime next summer before one would be locally available for a test drive.

-The ability to run on any diesel out there...not all stations will have ULSD until the end of the year, and I do drive into Mexico occasionally.

-The iron block straight-6 is a proven motor. MB has done some publicity stunts to prove the new V6 is stout, but I've learned my lesson with first-year cars.

lkchris

The V6 diesel has been sold in Europe since mid-2005, so you're hardly talking about a first-year car.

Alan Smithee

It's very much a first-year motor on first-year fuel. How many miles have been put on US-spec Bluetecs with US ULSD? Not one.

cdiken

The V6 has WAY more moving parts.

The V6 is new, I think has an aluminum block.

Also, doesn't the bluetec require some kind of periodic additive?

2006 = better engine, less money. See, that was easy.

EDIT: The Bluetec also comes with a 7-spd transmission. (search MBWORLD for a host of misery caused upon us by this transmision).

So to sum it up, new engine, new trans, new fuel, additive required, and a huge bill (like $4K) if you get fuel with too much sulfur in it and the particulate trap is ruined. And that's not too far fetched. Lets say a station drops 10,000 gallons ULSD on top of 500 gallons residual fuel. 10K at 15 ppm, 500 at 500 ppm, result is batch of 51 ppm sulfur......way out of spec, and YOU ARE SCREWED, damage likely not warranted.

Green E-300 DT

ULSD has been available for years in several parts of the U S, namely California and Texas.

By now, this better fuel should be available almost everywhere in
the U S, and is in fact, superior to any other fuel in the World.

As far as the new motor having far more moving parts, I ask: "How so?"
Because the block is a V configuration instead of being an inline motor?
Is it having two cylinder heads what you mean by more moving parts?

It is aluminum.

Isn't it better to have the new shorter and lighter motor with a V block so that
the newer superior 7G-TRONIC 7-speed transmission could be fitted?

I say that the newer "V" motor is better because not only is it more powerful, but it produces
better fuel economy and power (388 ft/lb torque) from a slightly smaller piston displacement.

I thought I read someplace that the "special fluid" wasn't required until the 2008 MY.

rlucas

OK. Obviously there are arguments on both sides. The 2006 CDI... How does it run on the new fuel? I mean, in a year or so will I have problems by using the new fuel in the CDI vs having the newer Bluetec?

lkchris

No

Alan Smithee

The 2006 CDI was designed to run on all existing diesel fuels. The issue with the Bluetec models is the exhaust; the old stuff will clog up the filters.

And to clarify, Bluetec does not refer to the new V6 nor the AdBlue urea injection; it is the exhaust system that optimizes emissions with ULSD. V6 models without this system are still called CDIs (the truck models...there is no E320 CDI V6 for the US market). The AdBlue urea injection is another year or so away.

Alan Smithee

Correct; the V6 is aluminum. Aluminum diesels motors have not been proven to last as long as iron blocks. It remains to be seen if they are as robust.

The 7-speed is preferable in a high-revving motor, but with all of the torque and ~4,500 RPM redline of the diesel, the 7-speed is rather pointless. And it is definitely not as durable as the old 5-speed.

The new V6 is marginally more powerful, and equally as economical on the EPA's cycle as the old in-line 6.

And as it has been pointed out, the AdBlue urea injection is NOT going to be on any MY2007 MB products, and is not what 'Bluetec' refers to.

cdiken

The name BlueTec confused me.

I second the 7spd is pointless. The diesel has plenty of torque elasticity, simply doesn't need it.

More moving parts: More camshafts (V design) and like most V6 engines probably has counter rotating balance shafts.

It claims to be more powerful, and is, but 388 lb. ft torque versus 369 is barely noticeable.

My CDI has a Carlsson C-tronic box, call it 425 lb ft and 240 HP. Carlsson tuning for the V6 does not put out that much power. If there are better tuning boxes for BlueTec somebody chime in.

BTW we do not have ULSD here in my part of Virginia yet, we have 500 ppm LSD at most outlets.

ULSD, in my opinion, is not a superior fuel. It may yield superior emissions results. But it has fewer BTU's per gallon, I understand, and provides reduced lubricity for the injector pump.

Green E-300 DT

If having more ratios is pointless, why have so many marques gone that route?
True, the new diesels DO have more torque and elasticity, but the
idea with more ratios is to keep that power in its' "sweet" spot.

Regarding the new V6 motor, see:
http://www.worldcarfans.com/photos.c...ar/country/gcf

Should an individual with a 2005-6 3.2L CDI with NO modification get caught in a contest with the newer 3.0L V6, he will soon find out what the extra 19 ft/lb and two extra gear ratios really does.

Is there an English version of the Carlsson site? My German sucks to put it bluntly!
How can one see how much their modification really does for the new 3.0L V6 motor?

You may or may not have the newer ULSD diesel fuel yet, but it is coming, and I can
say, having used it for several years in two cars, that it is better in every way.
I wouldn't be surprised that you will find that your suppliers are already pumping it, but aren't saying so.
I could not record any differences in average tank fuel economy.

The "reduced lubricity" problem was addressed some time
ago by BP/ARCO and is no longer of any concern.
ULSD does in fact yield superior emissions results, and that's why we are being "forced" to use it.
Alas, here in Kallifornia, even it is NOT good enough to meet those crazy restrictive diesel car requirements. Meanwhile, every other new 3/4 ton type PU is now a Cummins, Powerjoke or Duramax.
Tell me they don't pollute more than a new CDI or TDI!

harkgar

You are absolutely right. Furthermore, the turbo for the V-6 sits in the valley of the V and heat build-up must be terrible. The straight 6 has the turbo to one side of the engine and therefore easier to service and runs cooler. If you need to do any engine work on the V-6 the turbo has to come off. Not so with the straight 6 engine. My local MB dealer still has a few unsold 2006 with big discounts.

With the old engine you can get better mileage if you use higher sulphur fuel. More suphur means more energy per gallon. Tree-huggers breathe a little deeper and suck in all the extra suphur dioxide. It is good for you.

DUTCH

Wrong.

It gets Urea injection just ahead of the catalyst; and this requires a service call to refill the Urea tank.

If it's empty, you won't be able to start the engine; although I ***-u-me that, if it runs out when the engine is already running, it will continue to run.

DUTCH

From the MNUSA website:

Wolfgang

lkchris is correct. The 2007 E320 Bluetec does not use AdBlue injection ahead of the catalyst. Here's a page which shows the exhaust systems in the ML320 CDI, R320 CDI, E320 Bluetec and Vision GL320 Bluetec. Only the last one, planned for introduction during calender year 2008 uses AdBlue injection.

Mercedes calls Bluetec a "modular technology". So it's going to be implemented in different incarnations, and starting without AdBlue now, in a first step.

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/bluetec_mbusa_2006.html

Wolfgang

Here's more about the engine block in the OM642 DE30 LA, from the folks who make the engine blocks for Mercedes, Norsk Hydro in Germany.

Hydro delivers benchmark block for new Mercedes V-6 diesel engine
(2005-02-02) Hydro is supplying DaimlerChrysler with a benchmark-setting engine block from aluminium for its new Mercedes V-6 diesel engine. This very first aluminium V-block for a high-performance passenger diesel in large scale production proves that aluminium withstands the extreme pressures in this kind of engine.

http://www.hydro.com/en/press_room/n...eblock_en.html

Also interesting, this article:


Facts on Hydro's V-6 block for Mercedes
(2005-02-02) Hydro is supplying DaimlerChrysler with a benchmark-setting engine block from aluminium for its new Mercedes V-6 diesel engine. Here are some more facts:

TECHNOLOGY: Hydro has advanced its proprietary Core Package System CPS™ to become the leading technology for complex engine castings. Far-reaching design options allowed the integration of oil and water channels and pre-casting of attached parts, supporting Daimler-Chrysler´s innovative “one-box concept”.

At a V-degree of 72°, the most compact engine architecture in its class achieves a performance-weight ratio of 0.79 KW/kg, up 20 per cent compared with its predecessor, Mercedes´ 5-cylinder inline diesel engine. Cast-in rough iron liners ensure high thermal conductivity and low friction for the engine run. Yet, Hydro´s final aluminium block is saving more than 35 kg compared with a similar engine block in iron.

The casting method has been refined to provide outstanding fatigue strength, even exceeding the level of grey cast iron. Thanks to a combination of contact pouring, chill technique and a fine-tuned alloy, the new block meets the famous Mercedes standard for long-term durability, even at such a tremendous torque level as 510 Nm.

PLANT: To manufacture the new product, Hydro Aluminium Alucast in Dillingen, Germany, has established a third production line for V-engines with a maximum capacity of 350,000 parts per year. The Mercedes order is creating new jobs. In the long run, the Alucast plant workforce may grow to 800.

MARKET: Diesel engines are rapidly approaching 50 per cent of the market for new car registrations in Europe – and now can contribute to the future growth of aluminium use in cars. This will further increase fuel efficiency and facililitate recyclability. Based on this development, Hydro Aluminium Business Unit Castings will increase its market share and provide more viable solutions for engine manufacturing.

http://www.hydro.com/en/press_room/n..._facts_en.html

cdiken

http://www.carlsson.de/en/tuning/e-k...motor/cd32.php


WOW I was wrong, Carlsson has just released 3.0 CDI tuning.
Part numbers are auf anfrage, or on inquiry, ie not quite in full production. But the numbers look huge......A chipped V6 CDI with 7-spd should really haul!

Torque stock 3.0 V6 = 388 lb/ft
Torque modified 3.0V6 = 450 lb/ft (listed in metric as 612 N/M)
HP Stock 3.0 V6 = 208 HP (US Version, was SUPPOSED to be 224 HP)
HP Modified 3.0 V6 = 269 HP


Torque stock 3.2 I6 = 369 lb/ft
Torque modified 3.2 I6 = 428 lb/ft (listed in metric as 580 n/m)
HP Stock 3.2 I6 = 201 HP
HP Modified 3.2 I6 = 240 HP


Another thing I will give the new CDI/Bluetec: its lighter, lighter in the nose where less weight really counts.

Its lighter enough that the car should actually handle better.

Green E-300 DT

Those are the kinds of numbers I long to be wrong about!

True HP - N/M numbers like those you've listed should put the 2007 E-320
Bluetec 0 - 60 mph down well into the low 6 second bracket.
The MBZ brochure lists the stock E-320 Bluetec times at 6.6 seconds.

BTW - 612 n/m equals 451.388 ft/lb according to one conversion site.

You are right!
Any time that one can increase horsepower by more than 50 h/p
and torque by more than 60 ft/lb, that will be noticeable!

One wonders if the stock tires (255/55-16) will hold traction out-of-the-hole?
Noticed that the 255 width listed for the Bluetec are the widest tires used on any E-class including the E-63.

It is too bad that there is not a positraction type differential listed for this car, as
I think traction from a dead stop could become a real problem, especially
when the Bluetec is suitably modified with Carlsson tuning!

Thanks for telling us about the new upcoming Carlsson tuning as many of us can't ready German.

cyclerider

The BlueTec comes with 225/55-16 tires. The brochure is incorrect.
My E550 came with 265/35-18 rear tires, as does the E63.

Green E-300 DT

Kind of hard to have a tire size that no one makes, huh?
Wouldn't be the first time MBZ has made a mistake in their brochures, right?

I errored also on the size for the rears for the E-63.
Discovered that later when I was reviewing the 2007 E brochure.

Now if they only had a decent looking wheel for the Bluetec.
I don't dig five spoke (twin spoked) wheels. Too hard to keep clean.

My idea of nice appearing wheel is the wheel that comes on the wagons. But it's a 17 incher, isn't it?

cdiken

Does a chicken have lips?

Those lousy stock 16" grandma donuts can't even hold the power of a bone stock I6 CDI. Those tires are better suited to a non-US E240.

I upgraded to OEM E55 wheels and tires when I chipped my car, and THEY can't hold the power with the stock Continentals.

A limited slip would be awesome, but an E63 only gets one on special order, and that's new, it was unavailable as an option for the E55.

I have searched high and low and can't find an LSD for the W211 cars except the AMG cars.

So, that leads to a question:
Does anyone know if an E55/ E63 center pumpkin (differential assembly) is a direct bolt-in swap. I know the axle ratio is the same, so if the entire unit is a bolt in swap that would give you an LSD. For all that trouble, you might just buy yourself some computer confusion when the car does not know it has an LSD and still tries to use the traction control at the onset of wheelspin.

cdiken

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/17-E5...QQcmdZViewItem

Commonly available for sale. If you find new take offs, you really get a good value, lots of supply out there with everyone wanting "dubs" now days.

I almost got those for my car, but if I'm in a German car I'm going to drive like a German, and accelerate like a high school sophmore. I need meaty rubber.

The 265/35/ZR18's rear and 245/40/ZR18's front from the E55 were just perfect. My only gripes are that the wheels are WAY heavy, and the tires are big bucks.

lkchris

Tire shops prey on this kind of ignorance.

DUTCH

A discussion like this really belongs in a wheels and tires forum, but let me add my $.03, if I may.

The G500 comes with 18" wheel stock from the factory. It is well known in the G community (and the off-road community in general) that smaller 16" wheels with bigger rubber are far superior to the 18" OEM wheels and tires when it comes to ride and handling; and 20" and 22" aftermarket wheels on the G500 produce a horrendous ride. This is the case for both highway and off road applications.

Bottom line is that it's not the wheel size alone, but the combination of wheel plus tire that is important.