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mixing ATF w/ diesel

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Old 02-14-2011, 09:28 AM
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things with and without wheels
Originally Posted by KB3MMX
I'm still waiting on any relevant info to back up your dogmatic commentary 240.



Here's more info on testing of fuel additives: http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=177728



Oh darn, look how the wear scar decreased with cheap 2 Stroke oil.




Take a look at 240d's responses in this thread, very informative and so much depth.
https://mbworld.org/forums/diesel-fo...-freezing.html
Old 02-14-2011, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertG
Take a look at 240d's responses in this thread, very informative and so much depth.
https://mbworld.org/forums/diesel-fo...-freezing.html
Lol, right on Bob !! That was a good link, looked like the troll was beat once again by facts presented!
I think the troll is working diligently to find any test or fact that supports his opinion on this thread... It might be a long time until we hear back though because there aren't any currently, lol
Old 02-26-2011, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by KB3MMX
This message is hidden because KB3MMX is on your ignore list.
Sorry, I don't respond to trolls.
Old 02-27-2011, 11:16 AM
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Talking

Originally Posted by 240D 3.0T
Sorry, I don't respond to trolls.
Hmm, looks like 240D has been beat by the facts once again... and the above post is all he's got for a "response".
Old 02-28-2011, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by KB3MMX
This message is hidden because KB3MMX is on your ignore list.
Nope, sorry, still no change in your status.
Old 02-28-2011, 08:29 AM
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things with and without wheels
Hey 240d ,Take some of these and then try posting again.
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Old 02-28-2011, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertG
Hey 240d ,Take some of these and then try posting again.
LOL
Old 03-03-2011, 06:41 PM
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This message is hidden because KB3MMX is on your ignore list.
Nope, trolling is still hidden.
Old 08-26-2012, 09:17 PM
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First of all, I’ll preface this by saying that biodiesel has no sulphur and is in many ways already far superior to the highly expensive and complex processes that goes into trying to remove the sulphur from distillate (the mineral diesel that people are used to buying, which is really called “distillate”, not “diesel” as it is constantly branded). I’m only posting this thread as I think that most people who are interested in biodiesel need to be aware of “Low Sulphur Diesel” (LSD) and “Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel” (ULSD).

Why is sulphur so bad?
Sulphur in fuels is nasty when it is burned. Not only does it come out as toxic emissions, causing acid rain and other health hazards, but it also interferers with the ability of a catalytic converter to remove other bad stuff in the exhaust emissions. The catalytic converter in a modern engine sits in the exhaust pipe and helps to get rid of the yucky stuff that is not fully burned. Sulphur can choke this catalytic converter up and prevent it from doing its job. This is why many of the older diesel engines do not have the ability to clean their emissions very well – they were designed for a fuel with a high sulphur content.

Why is sulphur so good?
Lubrication. In the olden days, before everyone realised how horribly toxic petro fuels were and woke up to biodiesel, the pre-LSD fuel did a reasonably good job of lubrication. Diesel engines require a certain amount of “lubricity” from their fuel to keep things running smoothly.

What happens when the sulphur is removed?
To remove the sulphur firstly requires political pressure. The major fuel suppliers will market themselves as the saviours of the planet because they will fall into line with government regulations to clean up their product. In actual fact, removing the sulphur from the fuel is a difficult and costly process for them that requires extra refining. The process of removing the sulphur is called “sweetening”. Most commonly, this involves using hydrogen gas to change the sulphur into hydrogen sulphide (H2S), which is also called “hydrofining”. The H2S is then removed from the distillate for further processing. The process of removing the sulphur also reduces the lubricity of the fuel.

How does this effect engines?
Not only does the lubricity drop, requiring additional additives to the fuel to prevent engine problems, but in older engines, problems can be encountered with hoses and seals going brittle and shrinking. The process of removing sulphur from the fuel has now changed the fuel’s properties. If any components in the fuel system are made from natural rubber (also known as "NBR" or "buna-n" or "nitrile" rubber) then they can encounter problems. Seals in injector pumps can shrink, go brittle and leak with LSD or ULSD.

What are the manufacturers doing about this?
Since the mid 90s (dates vary), most manufacturers have been using components made from synthetic materials, such as FKM (also known as Viton). These materials do not suffer from the above problems. As such, most newer cars do not have a problem with LSD/ULSD.

What is the difference between LSD and ULSD?
Simply put, ULSD has 10 times less sulphur than LSD. LSD permits 500 parts per million (ppm) of sulphur. ULSD permits 50ppm. Before this, the maximum sulphur content in distillate was 5000ppm!

So what standards are governments implementing?
There are many different names for different standards in different countries, but I’ll address the ones that are relevant for Australia. In 2002, LSD was introduced to Australia and was mandated to be fully rolled out across the country by Dec 31st 2002. There was some noise made about this, but for most of the average consumers, it went completely unnoticed.
In Europe, the “Euro4” (ISO EN 590) standard meets the same sulphur content as ULSD and was mandated from 2005. Prior to this the “Euro3” standard was the same as LSD and has been mandated since 2000. “Euro5” (proposed for 2008) will be even cleaner.
The “Euro4” standard has now been introduced in Australia from January 2006, which means that any distillate you buy from a service station in Australia will be ULSD. Oddly, very little information is being offered to the consumer about this.


This graph does not show sulphur, but it gives you an idea of the different Euro Standards.


What does this new standard give us?
This has allowed many of the new “clean diesel” vehicles to be imported from Europe. These vehicles will be able to use cleaner exhaust catalysing technologies, as the sulphur problem no longer exists in the fuel. Vehicle manufacturers can now be sure that you will be putting ULSD into their vehicles, so they can be sure that the more advanced methods of removing emission pollutants (like catalytic converters) will not be poisoned by the sulphur content. This way, everyone knows that your emissions will be less and everyone is happy. This is why this year we will see far more diesel vehicles being imported into Australia, with manufacturers like Volkswagen bringing out a diesel option across their entire range of vehicles.
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:19 PM
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OK, so where does biodiesel come into this?

Biodiesel as a lubricity additive.
Remember how the removal of the sulphur caused a lack of lubricity, requiring additives? Guess what the best additive for lubricity is? Biodiesel. Due to biodiesel’s superior lubricity properties, the tiniest amount (like 2%) can be enough to restore the lubricity of ULSD. In France, all ULSD is mandated to contain 5% biodiesel, or another way of putting it is that all French diesel vehicles run on B5. Many of the major fuel companies in Australia are already using biodiesel as an additive to improve lubricity. Australian regulations state that mixes of B5 and under do not require any labelling or info to the consumer, so chances are that you are already driving with a small blend of biodiesel.

What effect will biodiesel have on my engine?
Well, at such a small blend, practically nothing. However, remember we talked about how the removal of sulphur caused nitrile rubber components problems with shrinkage? Biodiesel has the opposite effect – it can make nitrile rubber swell. There have been cases where problems caused by LSD have been solved by biodiesel for this reason. However, too much swelling or shrinking is a bad thing, causing leaks or blockages. The amount of swelling caused by biodiesel varies on the components present and can happen over months and years, not immediately, Also, the lesser the blend of biodiesel, the lesser the effect. B100 can soften hoses and swell seals over only a few months. In a newer vehicle with synthetic components, there is no problem at all.

So what do ULSD and biodiesel have in common?
Well, they are both more environmentally friendly than the old “dirty diesel” and they can both cause problems with seals and hoses in older vehicles. Most importantly modern vehicles with synthetic hoses and seals can run quite happily on both. If a vehicle is compatible for ULSD, then it is also compatible for biodiesel.

What are the differences between biodiesel and ULSD?
ULSD is low sulphur. Biodiesel is NO sulphur.
ULSD has far less harmful emissions that less refined distillate. Biodiesel in it’s natural form has far less emissions than ULSD.
There seems to be no responsibility taken by either the manufacturers, or the major fuel companies to warn consumers of the risks to older vehicles of ULSD in Australia. If any parts fail, it will clearly be the consumer who has to bear the brunt of repair and replacement.
With biodiesel, the suppliers are making an effort to educate people of the issues that this fuel can cause to older vehicles.
New vehicle warranties are not affected by ULSD, as manufacturers know that they now use synthetic components that will not be subject to shrinkage or swelling. Curiously, most manufacturers in Australia have no position of biodiesel (or a negative position out of ignorance), when the only issues potentially caused by biodiesel are the same as for ULSD and are already solved with the same synthetic components!

What implications does this have with new vehicle warranties on biodiesel?
If you ask a manufacturer to confirm compatibility of their vehicle with biodiesel, they’ll more than likely go into an ignorant panic spin and tell you that they will not warrant the use of biodiesel, possibly because they say that there is no standard (which is not true), or because they have not yet done enough testing on biodiesel, which is closer to the truth. You will be better off asking them if they can confirm compatibility with ULSD instead. At least they will know about that one. They will of course tell you that there will not be any problem, as they have had enough time to ensure their new vehicles meet “Euro4” spec. As we have learned above, if the car has synthetic bits, you will not have a problem.
Biodiesel bought from a reputable supplier, meeting the ASTM spec will not cause any problems with your engine. The photos of soaped up pumps and gummed up pistons that your dealer might have seen Bosch produce are caused by biodiesel that does not meet this spec and is just propaganda. One day dealers and manufacturers will all get to understand this better, but in the mean time, we will have to educate ourselves and not rely on their ignorant opinions. Hopefully if enough of us ask and insist, they will come around eventually.

Here is a good example of a manufacturer who is not afraid of ULSD, because they know their parts are synthetic. I bet if you were to ask them about biodiesel, they’d probably give a different answer purely out of ignorance.

Lucky you know better!
.


So I will be putting a quart of 100% biodiesel before every fill up.
Old 08-27-2012, 06:32 AM
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Also some good links on making your own bio for under 100$ on pg 2
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w123...esel-fuel.html
Old 12-23-2012, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Proctor750
Why is sulphur so good?
Lubrication.
That is false information.
Sulfur is a natural oil contaminant. It has zero benefits and it is not a lubricant.

The process of removing the sulfur is what affects lubricity, not the lack of sulfur.

How does this effect engines?
Answer: All diesels will naturally operate cleaner. It has no effect on the engine or fuel system lifespan.

If any components in the fuel system are made from natural rubber then they can encounter problems.
That is false information.
Also known as a "scapegoat", ULSD is not the cause of their failure, but simply natural age and heat-cycles.

Simply put, ULSD has 10 times less sulphur than LSD. LSD permits 500 parts per million (ppm) of sulphur. ULSD permits 50ppm.
False.
ULSD is 15ppm.

Remember how the removal of the sulphur caused a lack of lubricity, requiring additives? Guess what the best additive for lubricity is?
Answer: The refinery. All diesel must meet lubricity standards before its shipped.

So I will be putting a quart of 100% biodiesel before every fill up.
That is pointless. It adds needless time, cost and complexity to the fueling process.
Old 12-23-2012, 12:51 PM
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Wink

Originally Posted by Charun


That is pointless. It adds needless time, cost and complexity to the fueling process.


Oh. OK. Well ill just fill up at a b20 pump instead. Its 20% bio blended with your precious ultra low sulpher diesel so I get the best of both worlds, and its a hell of a lot cheaper.
Old 12-23-2012, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Proctor750
Oh. OK. Well ill just fill up at a b20 pump instead. Its 20% bio blended with your precious ultra low sulpher diesel so I get the best of both worlds, and its a hell of a lot cheaper.

MB does not recommend B20 for CDI engines, but is ok for your diesel engine.
Old 12-23-2012, 10:54 PM
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I think its the esters in the bio matter that people are scared of as it can get moisture in the fuel system.
Ulsd does not meet Bosch m pumps wear scar maximums of around 400 microns. B20 does, but the esters are the trade off.
Old 12-26-2012, 09:56 PM
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I think is the gelling of those esters under high pressure in CDI fuel system that causes the problem not the water retained by them.
Old 12-27-2012, 06:31 AM
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Ahh yes I can see how that could cause an issue during direct injection.
Old 03-23-2013, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Proctor750
Ulsd does not meet Bosch m pumps wear scar maximums of around 400 microns.
Hasn't hurt my pump. Been using straight diesel and my pump runs just as good today as it did 7 years ago in 2006 when ULSD was phased in.
When is my pump supposed to fail?

ULSD is only a threat to rotary injection pumps because they use the fuel as their lubrication.
Old 03-23-2013, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuke
Hasn't hurt my pump. Been using straight diesel and my pump runs just as good today as it did 7 years ago in 2006 when ULSD was phased in.
When is my pump supposed to fail?

ULSD is only a threat to rotary injection pumps because they use the fuel as their lubrication.
I would imagine it would fail by the ratio of the scar wear your getting vs what Bosch recommends. Kind of like if your going 70mph vs 75mph, how long will the trip last if your doing 75mph vs 70mph. See Math*


Also: Why would Bosh have a scar wear suggested rating for Bosh M pumps, if in fact the fuel did not affect the pump?

Last edited by Proctor750; 03-23-2013 at 03:18 PM.
Old 03-23-2013, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Proctor750
Also: Why would Bosh have a scar wear suggested rating for Bosh M pumps, if in fact the fuel did not affect the pump?
To cover warranty claims.

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