New diesels for Mercedes?
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Toronto
2006 E320 CDi, 2008 3/4 Ton Suburban, 2007 "rice rickshaw" Accord 5 speed
Big mistake Mr. Lieb
Please give us more horses for the same money. You can do that by ordering your underlings to reflash all the diesel computers. It does not cost you anything. Power to the people!!!
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Houston, Tx
2015 C63S
The computer? I read the engine in the ML and S makes more power due to a build difference in the engine. I think it had to do with the block and was done for emissions reasons but also resulted in more power. But I am someone shopping for a car right now and even before I went and looked at the E again I was having big issues with it having less power than the M and S. I personally felt the thing best get discounted because I'd been PISSED if I bought the E today then next model year it gets what the M and S have today.
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From: Connecticut
2018 BMW 540d
You would think that MB would do that particularly given BMW's 265hp/425 ft lbs torque diesel that they offer here.My 3 Series diesel had that engine and it was outstanding.If I wasn't so lazy I'd check to see the specs of the diesels that MB offers in Europe....I'll bet they're more powerful there.
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Joined: Jan 2011
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From: Central Pennsylvania
2012 S350 Bluetec 4Matic, Diamond White, P2
It really depends on what MB decides. VW offers the 2.0 TDI with and without. In the Jetta it does not have the AdBlue system. In the Passat, VW chose to use the AdBlue system. Same engine, just one with, and, one without. Interestngly, the larger, heavier, Passat WITH the AdBlue system has higher EPA ratings than the Jetta. The AdBlue injection allows for even more precise tuning of the combustion cycles. MB could go either way with the small 4 banger as well. We will just have to wait and see. I would love to have a loaded C with this engine. Based soley from my experience with my E350 Bluetec's 40+ highway mileage, I would expect a C class with the 2.1 diesel to get much closer to 50. I had a 2005 Passat diesel (2.0 L) and got mid to h high 40's on the highway. I would expect a C with this engine to be similar.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 348
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From: Houston, Tx
2015 C63S
For the Passat I read that VW used DEF because the heavier weight of the car causing stronger load on the engine and they were unable to make it pass the needed emissions without having DEF. But as you noted by adding the DEF it has actually made the mpg better in the Passat than the Jetta. I'd be rather surprised if a C Blutec came stateside and did not end up using DEF since it is a pretty sturdy car and I am just assuming kind of heavy.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: USA, EU
06 E320 CDI (GONE), 14 Jeep GC EcoDiesel, 01 Disco II (GONE), 09 BMW X3 3.0 Si Xdrive
The computer? I read the engine in the ML and S makes more power due to a build difference in the engine. I think it had to do with the block and was done for emissions reasons but also resulted in more power. But I am someone shopping for a car right now and even before I went and looked at the E again I was having big issues with it having less power than the M and S. I personally felt the thing best get discounted because I'd been PISSED if I bought the E today then next model year it gets what the M and S have today.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 348
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From: Houston, Tx
2015 C63S
MB uses twin‑wire arc spraying echnology. http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0-5-658...0-0-0-0-0.html
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MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Toronto
2006 E320 CDi, 2008 3/4 Ton Suburban, 2007 "rice rickshaw" Accord 5 speed
The computer? I read the engine in the ML and S makes more power due to a build difference in the engine. I think it had to do with the block and was done for emissions reasons but also resulted in more power. But I am someone shopping for a car right now and even before I went and looked at the E again I was having big issues with it having less power than the M and S. I personally felt the thing best get discounted because I'd been PISSED if I bought the E today then next model year it gets what the M and S have today.
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Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 348
Likes: 2
From: Houston, Tx
2015 C63S
Maybe so. Whatever the reasons are for the significant jump in power and torque they are likely to be simple changes. MB has a habit of using up old engine and transmission stocks, only gradually installing the new stuff in newer models. I have noticed that the W211 E350 station wagons got the old 5 speed transmissions when it initially came out. Only later versions got the 7G transmission. BMW had declared that the 300 bhp 535d is coming out with the M5 in late 2012. Mercedes would have to hurry and match the numbers!
I am sure though that the existing 535d, not sold in the states, is a ton faster and more responsive than the E350 and even if the E350 had the new Blutec for added power. The two brands though really seem to tailor their cars for different types of buyers.
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2011
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From: Near Niagara Falls, Canada
2013 ML BLUETEC JULY 31
You could be right Dougie Bear. I was trying to make the point that historically MB would only move when kicked in the butt by other makes - by Lexus with the Special class and now with the BMW diesel offerings. There is no reason at all why MB gives the new S350 Bluetec and ML 350 Bluetec both 240 bhp & 455 torque while deliberately offering the lower power engines in its E, GL and R series diesels. I would feel very aggrieved if I am shopping for a diesel car and seeing that MB is trying to short-change its customers in the power department. Why is MB driving its loyal customers to Audi and BMW instead of turning the wick up by adjusting the computer?
Delays are do to crash testing costs etc Any big change like a motor will need to be re-certified.
The cost to certify a vehicle/engine for a year or two of production is too high.
R is likely to be discontinued and E is a few years old in design but perhaps at refresh they will put it in. GL due next year with redesign will for sure have new spec diesel. GLK 2013 will have 4cyl diesel at it refresh.
2013 there is a GLOBAL STANDARD developed diesel emission.
The Manufacturers are ALL waiting till then as costs will drop as engine specs and development cost can then be GLOBAL. 1 world 1 engine
Hope this helps everyone
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,332
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From: Toronto
2006 E320 CDi, 2008 3/4 Ton Suburban, 2007 "rice rickshaw" Accord 5 speed
FYI
Delays are do to crash testing costs etc Any big change like a motor will need to be re-certified.
The cost to certify a vehicle/engine for a year or two of production is too high.
R is likely to be discontinued and E is a few years old in design but perhaps at refresh they will put it in. GL due next year with redesign will for sure have new spec diesel. GLK 2013 will have 4cyl diesel at it refresh.
2013 there is a GLOBAL STANDARD developed diesel emission.
The Manufacturers are ALL waiting till then as costs will drop as engine specs and development cost can then be GLOBAL. 1 world 1 engine
Hope this helps everyone
Delays are do to crash testing costs etc Any big change like a motor will need to be re-certified.
The cost to certify a vehicle/engine for a year or two of production is too high.
R is likely to be discontinued and E is a few years old in design but perhaps at refresh they will put it in. GL due next year with redesign will for sure have new spec diesel. GLK 2013 will have 4cyl diesel at it refresh.
2013 there is a GLOBAL STANDARD developed diesel emission.
The Manufacturers are ALL waiting till then as costs will drop as engine specs and development cost can then be GLOBAL. 1 world 1 engine
Hope this helps everyone
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 348
Likes: 2
From: Houston, Tx
2015 C63S
Urea(DEF) fluid is cheaply priced and lasts well enough. It certainly is not adding some significant costs to the fuel side of things. Heck it even increases the fuel economy on the newer diesels for example the TDI Passat gets better fuel economy than the TDI Jetta. Same engines, urea used on the Passat though.
Now what I never have quite gathered is the urea helping fuel economy simply because of some other overcomplicated emissions system that is needed.
What worries me is when these complicated systems break and we all know things break with time. I think these systems is what kills the longevity of the new diesels more than anything else. People just aren't going to sink tons of tons for repairs on these motors after they put on a good bit of miles. I see on the BMW forums with their diesels routine issues with DEF crystalizing and sensor issues as well with the DEF system. Actually have wondered if this is specific to that make or something common the the DEF systems in general.
Now what I never have quite gathered is the urea helping fuel economy simply because of some other overcomplicated emissions system that is needed.
What worries me is when these complicated systems break and we all know things break with time. I think these systems is what kills the longevity of the new diesels more than anything else. People just aren't going to sink tons of tons for repairs on these motors after they put on a good bit of miles. I see on the BMW forums with their diesels routine issues with DEF crystalizing and sensor issues as well with the DEF system. Actually have wondered if this is specific to that make or something common the the DEF systems in general.
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 43
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Urea(DEF) fluid is cheaply priced and lasts well enough. It certainly is not adding some significant costs to the fuel side of things. Heck it even increases the fuel economy on the newer diesels for example the TDI Passat gets better fuel economy than the TDI Jetta. Same engines, urea used on the Passat though.
Now what I never have quite gathered is the urea helping fuel economy simply because of some other overcomplicated emissions system that is needed.
What worries me is when these complicated systems break and we all know things break with time. I think these systems is what kills the longevity of the new diesels more than anything else. People just aren't going to sink tons of tons for repairs on these motors after they put on a good bit of miles. I see on the BMW forums with their diesels routine issues with DEF crystalizing and sensor issues as well with the DEF system. Actually have wondered if this is specific to that make or something common the the DEF systems in general.
Now what I never have quite gathered is the urea helping fuel economy simply because of some other overcomplicated emissions system that is needed.
What worries me is when these complicated systems break and we all know things break with time. I think these systems is what kills the longevity of the new diesels more than anything else. People just aren't going to sink tons of tons for repairs on these motors after they put on a good bit of miles. I see on the BMW forums with their diesels routine issues with DEF crystalizing and sensor issues as well with the DEF system. Actually have wondered if this is specific to that make or something common the the DEF systems in general.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 348
Likes: 2
From: Houston, Tx
2015 C63S
Very true, after years of buying diesels I actually think my BMW is the last new one I will buy. Actually been shopping replacement cars to get into something bigger and not even considering a diesel at this point and looking at gassers. Not to imply I have had problems with the BMW, I just have watched people debate all these emissions systems and keep thinking no way any of these cars will last 20+ years like my 300SD parked next to that BMW.
