Micah / AF1 Rac

So while I've yet to have an issue on my 06' e320 CDI with these intake manifold servo controlled butterfly valves, I see many threads where people have experienced failures. Dealers claiming that manifolds cannot be cleaned is a laughable concept were it not so sadly expensive to replace the manifold. I plan on preemptively killing my flaps and cleaning my manifold out of all soot and buildup.

If you follow the mod thread my car is reflashed to eliminate EGR and add a bit more power, I'm not actually concerned that with EGR defeated that my flaps will fail, I'm far more interested in getting more power while not really exceeding the 27 psi peak boost pressure I'm currently running. My car is a daily driver but very seldom does the motor run for less than 17-20 miles per engine start, most of my driving is commuting state highways so fairly light load type driving, the other half of my driving is LONG distance work, like Texas to Reno for the air races and back in 8 days total, or 1-2k mile 2-3 day weekends Storm Chasing in the desert southwest and into the Great Plains area.

So I guess the basic question is this, are there any actual or perceived downsides to killing the intake flaps? How about benefits? I know there is a roughly 10-15% increase in airflow into the head! I also know that this in no way directly translates to more power without adding more fuel but obviously there would be a reduction in pumping loss so a small additional gain in efficiency.

Does anyone have a spare "uncleanable" intake manifold they would like to sell me? I'm in Texas so would prefer to pay only domestic shipping rates plus parts cost. I'm hoping to minimize down time with the car off road and would like to take my time preparing the replacement manifold, welding up the little holes is no issue for me nor is cleaning, I have the tools and ability to finish the job the way I like.

Has anyone done a before and after dyno test on a manifold modified in a similar way, if so what were the results? The next round of mods includes installing water/methanol injection from AEM for diesel use since intake air temps pre turbo are often in the 110-120F range here in the brutal Texas heat, with re-routed case breather and EGR killed along with regular water/meth steam cleaning of the manifold I expect the modded manifold will stay VERY clean for a long time, at least till I'm done with the car.

Your thoughts please? Btw, my car is straight pipes from turbo to tail so no pesky restrictions to catch soot build up other than my precious little VNT turbocharger.

isstay

Flaps should help for cleaner burn because they swirl the air into pistons cup at low rpm.
I purchased intake w/o flaps from EU and if I remember correctly it cost me less than 150$ and the mail man delivered it to my garage. Just and heads up, if buy one ask them to ship it w/regular mail to avoid customs charges (have to pay 25$ to get my turbo released because was shipped via Fedex).
Any future plans for intercooler upgrade?

Micah / AF1 Rac

In case my description was inadequate these are the little restrictive parts I was referring to. I know someone has a spare manifold sitting around they would like to turn into a small pile of cash after being told cleaning is impossible by an MB dealer...PM me or post up if you have one to unload at a reasonable price.

Btw, these are not my pics, they may well have come from this forum though, just some I've been studying that I got off Google Images. I saw one for sale modified in the way I wish to do here a month or so back, so wish I had just bought it...but I tend to overthink these things too long. eBay has also been of little to no help, seems more often the case than not lately. I've actually been considering buying a total loss car for CHEAP just to scavenge parts and build a spare motor that's extra evil...cause I have a sickness I suppose?

Micah / AF1 Rac

I have a few Intercoolers sitting around that will fit with a bit of work but, my current thinking is to use stock cooler combined with water/methanol injection as this is what has been proven to work very well on the turbo bikes I tune and play with in land speed racing. Water/meth is so insanely effective at both charge cooling and intake tract and port and chamber cleaning that it has become my preferred method. A REALLY nice kit is under $600 now with a five gallon tank for trunk mounting, in a pinch windshield washer fluid is basically same stuff as anti-Det fluid so it's widely available for my longer trips. Nothing plummets EGT's with the same efficiency that I've seen.

On my supercharged v-twin Mile racer, water/meth alone was worth close to 20 bhp at only 13.5lbs boost. The motor stays new-build clean inside too, and I've seen the insides enough times to appreciate this fact.

isstay

I know what you are talking about and as I said I have one w/o flaps from car from Germany (OM613 engine - I6) but I am not selling it until I decide which way I am going go with or w/o flaps. By the way they are called swirl flaps.

isstay

You can remove the flaps on yours and thread the holes and install bolts w/washers in place. Since your EGR is deleted from the MAP only thing you have to do is to make cooper gasket and close the EGR port.

Micah / AF1 Rac

Thanks for the tip on the Euro 613 manifold, I will definitely look into going that direction. As far as plugging holes and/or filling in gaps its easy enough, we have to make most of the custom parts we do for exotic bikes, welders, 3D printer, 2 axis table cutters, milling machine and gasket plotter/cutter all under same roof for prototyping.

I know they call them "swirl flaps" but I'm pretty sure this is nice marketing speak more than actual effective engineering. The asymmetrical ports in the head are the real turbulence generators and port offset the real inducer of swirl, the flaps could increase this effect in a minor way. They might indeed clean up emissions in some micro fractional manner at idle and just off idle, areas where my motor is seldom operated.

I did not even know they existed until after finishing up my exhaust, now with motor at 65-85C or "up to temp" I hear/feel a change around 1500-1800 rpm on light throttle uphill acceleration in lower gears, sort of reminiscent of the change in induction noise on my NSX as V-Tech activates. That was what led me searching for the cause and where I started seeing all the horror stories of gumming up and general failure and filthy manifolds...hence where I arrived at my next little mod. The intake was coming off anyway at the next major service and I have a serious problem leaving stuff alone so I'm just planning and stockpiling parts right now.

It will be interesting to put the dead stock high mileage manifold and the non flapper manifold on the flow bench and test the actual flow numbers before and after such modification. It sure looks like a 15% or so obstruction even with the valves open due to protruding shafts! butterflies and bolt heads and threads.

Nice to hear I'm not the only one who questions the infinite wisdom of MB. After having my catastrophic SBC failure and darn near a month long battle with MB over getting it fixed to my satisfaction my faith in Teutonic arrogance and engineering is a wee bit shaken, I'm trying to love my car again...and more power is helping the healing process.

isstay

Maybe the note change is due to more air pushed from the turbo due to request from ECU (uphill, steady speed, low torque requirement) to increase the engine torque. I really doubt that those flaps will make noticeable difference in engine sound especially at that engine speed.

isstay

This one:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mercedes-W211...item2ecc76dc1b

ask him how much the shipping will be.

Micah / AF1 Rac

I never noticed the sound until after I straight piped the car, now you can hear much more clearly little changes, heck, the difference at idle between egr on and off is audible even, mine is now off for good but I have flashed back and forth a few times while playing with it between stock and altered mapping. For whatever sick reason I really enjoy playing with this motor, it's the most satisfying thing to tune since two stroke TZ yamaha motors went the way of the dinosaurs.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out and see about shipping, I'm guessing that might be a deal killer but we shall see. After reading probably a hundred posts from all sorts of MB owners with dealers telling them the manifolds can't be fixed part of my interest is just proving that it can, and for WAY le$$ than a new manifold costs.

I'm pretty sure there are small gains possible without the obstruction so near the high velocity portion of the inlet port, with little if any losses in the real world. It seems many OEM's have become obsessed with complexity for the sake of complexity. I tune motorcycles for a living and secondary throttle plates are used in many models, obviously for different reasons but, 99% of the time when tuning for best power removing the things is worth the effort. Only on one 600cc Kawasaki motor did I see any loss, and it was minimal and only above 14k rpm with minimal gains below.

isstay

And most rewarding if you want to go the right way to the end.

isstay

Chipper one:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mercedes-S211...00488363192%26

Micah / AF1 Rac

I think of TurboDiesels as my sort of hybrid, half gas turbine, half reciprocating motor. No stupid 1000+ lbs of battery packs and supplemental extra electric motors to carry around.

In dyno tuning motorcycles I personally get a bigger kick out of cruisers and Harley's than sportbikes, the gains are so much easier to make and more impressive, now turbo bikes of any variety are another thing altogether, like two strokes, just right amount of pure evil and sheer terror to make you smile, and they don't suffer fools lightly. Hopefully riding a turbo Victory in an upcoming Texas Mile event that I've been working with a customer on, nothing too crazy, just shooting for the record in its class, only have to beat 168 mph and leave with a running motor and the owner will be super pleased, the biggest tuning issue on that bike right now is boost management to stay under the per rod torque limit of 80 ft/lbs across a 5,500 rpm range, at only 9 psi we are at the friggin ragged edge to 5,500 rpm so progressive boost control is gonna have replace simplicity on that one.

I don't mess with diesels for money, just for fun, I'm loving getting 35-40mpg in my daily driver while still pushing myself back in the seat harder than any of my other car toys. Since I like playing with airplanes too and TDI is definitely the future there, just injecting Jet-A instead of normal diesel, I'm trying to learn as fast as I can on the ground. There is one more speed record I'd like to own eventually and it can only be done with wings and a prop.

If your intrigued look up the DeltaHawk V4 TSDI two stroke, the potential is there for some amazing stuff.

Thanks for the additional link, inquiries in. I need to make a deal soon either for a car dyno, or rental time on one to properly document this project. As a full time dyno tuner I know how I should be doing this, and relying on accelerometer iPhone apps is probably not it, though it am surprised at the quality of the data when you use real base numbers for actual rolling weight and do two way pulls to eliminate grades and winds or at least minimize that error.

isstay

I am long time diesel engine and diesel technology fan and I know how efficient and durable is the two-stroke diesel w/o compromising power and torque compare to gasoline counterpart. It is being engine of choice for propelling fright trains and ships while maintaining low operating cost. Their BSFC for ship engines is 0.260 lbs/hp/hour and thermal efficiency exceeding 50% with very low rotational speed.


Speaking of bikes, what is your opinion on Triumph Rocket III (I know that his internal intake swirl valves need to be removed).

Micah / AF1 Rac

That Triumph has a MILE of potential, using TuneBoy or TuneECU or equivalent where spark mapping can be made rational to compliment normal mods allows for INSANE torque. The last serious one we had in for tuning made so much much torque that stock clutches were literally a very common wear item, it ate one on the dyno and then finished off a second while out road testing. The motor is very restricted out of the box to keep owners alive long enough to become repeat customers.

Basic mods, proper tapered 3:1 header with about 18" perforated baffle length, 60mm ID, pod filters, light porting and high compression pistons and a WAY stiffer clutch spring set is turly sick, and capable of way more power than the short gearing allows full exploitation of. Normal mods alone still make TDI like torque...fun with a capitol F

isstay

Will keep this in mind. Thanks

dgiturbo

I have always wondered why anyone would put swirl intake flaps on a diesel PRESSURISED intake.. Once you go into positive manifold pressure, the turbo is ramming the air into the cylinders, swirl it or not. And since diesels have 0 vacuum to begin with... Great idea for a high revving N/A Corvette Z06 that has to suck it's own air in, but on our 3800RMP turbo motors?

As for uncleanable, I was one of those victims. Reason is not that it's uncleanble, but that the typical parts changer doesnt want to lose other jobs cleaning yours that may or may not be perfect, and turn into a "come back job". They just swap out and move on. My intake was kept by the dealer after the job was done, but if you go by a few dealerships, they may have old ones laying around in a scrap metal bin?

Good stuff on your mods so far.

Micah / AF1 Rac

Pressurized or non pressurized intake flow still charges the cylinder at effectively the same port velocity other than in the very early portion of the intake open event when the pressure differential is highest. Intake port velocity is determined by linear piston speed and port design more than any other single item or metric. I can indeed see how swirl flaps might improve turbulence and turbulence even in a high boost diesel is very much required for smooth and efficient combustion of the injected fuel load. It is for this reason that turbocharging an already lame naturally aspirated motor doesn't make it awesome, but turbocharging an awesome naturally aspirated motor results in really awesome yields.

I agree with your assessment of parts changers at the dealer btw, I'm one of the last of a breed in decline who gets more jollies from fixing than replacing but it's already established I'm a wee bit eccentric.

There are a LOT of manifolds on German eBay...this is getting interesting.

isstay

Because this engine in all different version it had is been in EU for close to two decades if not longer in many different MB vehicles.

Micah / AF1 Rac

Good to know. I've read up on it and done the wiki stuff on it. I casually researched it for about three years prior to buying one. Had I known about the SBC brake issues I wouldn't have. I see the motor as the Toyota Supra of the diesel world that is available in the USA market. The 2JZ-GTE of CDI/tdi motors. I actually have an unusual amount of domestic diesel experience, thanks to my dad. We had, a Volvo 740 TurboDiesel, an 83' Maxima Diesel, I think it was called a 524D BMW, an old WWII surplus army diesel genset, later a Cat 3306 powered 150kw genset. We after got an early 12V Cummins truck. I was around diesel motors from birth basically, for USA that is weird I'm guessing. We had a couple dog slow benz's too.

I also have a 190d 2.5 Inline 5 cylinder diesel that was supposed to be a project car...it has a manual tranny. Wish I had time for projects. Restoration, turbo motor, run it part time WMV oil....if I had time. Too many projects, must simplify my life. All this stuff eats into my airplane time....

Micah / AF1 Rac

So...these manifolds do not come up for sale very often here in the USA, eBay or otherwise. I'm having poor luck with German sellers that will ship to the USA, found one Brit who will but damn, that shipping is the same price as the full extrude hone process. Anybody got one here they want to unload? Bueller, Bueller....?

isstay

It will be easier and cheaper to remove the flaps, thread the holes and screw bolts with cooper washers to seal them.

Micah / AF1 Rac

Yeah, I could just do my own manifold that's already on my car for cheaper that's for sure...the downtime I was trying to avoid but I have plenty of vehicle options for downtime so in reality it's not a huge deal. I have a blast cabinet and plenty of media to blow off the residue inside my manifold...and polishing compound and paint supplies to redfish the exterior...I was/am just hoping to find one to pre prep so I don't feel rushed. I need to pull the manifolds and redo the seals and injectors on my V12 first really anyway...severe storm season will be here quick and it's my hail puncher!

isstay

This does not sound good!!! I am going to South Padre Island for spring break with my family, we shall see.

Micah / AF1 Rac

Oh no, actually I live for severe storm season. I keep that V12 BMW as a dedicated chaser car, it laughs off three inch hail and has brought me home through some ROUGH stuff basically unharmed. I crashed it once last year early in the season in 100+ mph straight line winds and it did literally only a few hundred $$$ in actual non cosmetic type damage to the car. I use the W211 for chasing too but mainly later season, "dry side" sort of events, usually hail avoidance is easy after June/July. I will post up some interesting pics after the first serious chase of the season.