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No it wont. You are wrong. When we were developing energy conserving oils I ran a fleet of 10 vehicles on the dyno at 6am, 2pm & 10pm daily for a year through both summer & winter over 10 & 20 Km's from a cold start. In that service the water level from combustion in the oil just continues to rise. We have some of the most sophisticated research labs in the world & I assure you that you are wrong.
Are you saying that the water is not evaporated off at all with a 10 Km drive in the summer time? How hot does the enginee need to be to evaporate off the water? It seems counter intuitive that the a warmer engine would have the same amount of combustion water as a cold engine.
We need to let our resident engineer and scientist Gln chime in here but I suspect the answer has to do with temp differentials. For instance, a gas engine might generate an internal combustion temp of 1500F. Perhaps more in some parts of the engine. So when you look at the external ambient temp difference on a cold vs warm day (IE- 0F vs 80F), it is a pretty insignificant difference relative to the internal combustion temps which determines the water content. Diesel engines run even hotter internally.
Here is my seat of the pants view!! . Glyn's tests are only over 10 & 20 Km. from cold start-up in a time frame of say 10 to 20 minutes in town & half that on the highway.
In these circumstances either summer or winter I can imagine the water level of the sump oil will keep increasing because the oil only may just achieve its operating temp say 80'C for a short time, if at all. During this "cold running period " more condensate is added to the oil.
If however the vehicle is run over an say 8 to 12 hour period non stop ( summer or winter)with the oil temp at say 80' C the water in the oil must evaporate out .
Any light faction fuel contamination will also evaporate out .
This can be experienced first hand when an engine has been doing a lot of short trips then after a long trip the sump oil level has fallen noticeably .
We may be commenting about two different phenomena. My comment is directed at why outside summer and winter temps might not affect the amount of water present in the combustion process at start up. Dave2001auto was wondering why outside temp differences don't have a significant effect on water content summer vs winter.
Your comment I think pertains to the length of time it takes for that moister to burn off after startup. I'm sure Glyn can shed some light on that.
There will obviously be a longer warm up period in winter because of the ambient temperature of the engine block ,head, oil & coolant. But how much difference this makes is up to those who have done the testing .Once the system is at running temp (including oil) there should be little difference in pollutants summer /winter.I think the answer is in the engine thermostat maintaining the optimum temperatures. The longer the oil is at operating temps the more pollutants are evaporated off. ie long runs.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by dave2001auto
Are you saying that the water is not evaporated off at all with a 10 Km drive in the summer time? How hot does the enginee need to be to evaporate off the water? It seems counter intuitive that the a warmer engine would have the same amount of combustion water as a cold engine.
An engine requires to run for 100's of miles/many hours at full operating temperature to drive off water from combustion, aggravated by closed circuit breather systems. Also remember in this process that the engines are continuing to produce water from combustion. Modern Benz engines with the 4 way ECU controlled thermostat warm up so quickly that ambient conditions are of little consequence in the equation. Diesels particularly heat up quickly due to high auto ignition temperature of fuel, higher temperatures of combustion & greater energy value of the fuel. Engine operating temperature takes over from ambient so quickly that ambient conditions have a negligible effect. Gasoline is driven off quickly due to low latent heat of vaporization. Diesel takes forever to drive off & chronic diesel contamination of crankcase oil will usually lead to bearing failure due to reduction in oil viscosity to a point that hyrodynamic lubrication cannot be maintained. Water takes longer to drive/evapourate off than many realise. Gasoline engine oils are formulated to combat low temperature sludge while diesel engine oils are formulated to combat high temperature sludge. Benz' 4 way ECU controlled thermostat has done much to speed the warm up of gasoline engines. Fitted from M272/273 engines onward.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 03-29-2016 at 10:19 PM.
Thanks Glyn, that is so simple & neat. Why did I not think of it !!.
What happens when the engine is at operating temp & the supply voltage fails ( which is holding the thermostat in radiator mode) ?. Is there a safety feature?
Does Pentosin high performance II 5w40, a HC oil, show the sludgling problems? Is it a good oil? What about the oci for this oil?
Any relation to oil draining by vacuuming v. Drain plug methods? It seems like the bottle drain would remove larger particles and some sludge.
I've just sent off my first sample of Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 (meets MB 229.52) for analysis. We'll see how it compares to the MB branded 229.52. After 4,200kms, visually, it still looked good; still very transparent and nice viscosity.
I suspect, that as long as the oil meets the required spec, then it's not an oil issue.
At my next fill. I'm going to use Amsoil Euro Car Formula 5W40 I-ESP.
There are differing opinions as to where is best to drain the oil from. On many vehicles, through the dipstick tube actually reaches to a lower point in the oil pan.
On the OM642 engine, you can see that the drain plug is side-mounted, but it is at a very low spot on the pan. The worst case is that about a half once of oil might left in there. The dipstick tube goes to the same spot, so I doubt there's a benefit either way.
My though of particulates is removing particulates and sludge would be harder by sucking particulates up 1 meter than to drop it down or side ways. The sludge would remain in the pan with the evacuation method, while some of the sludge would come out of the larger drain hole.
My friend's 2009 e350 (gas) the dipstick tube does not go all the way down. He removed most of the oil by vacuum on the dipstick tube but had to get the remaining oil out using a thin tube down the dipstick tube.
ESP oil prices have sky rocketed. Most "full synthetic" oils in the USA are hydro cracked (HC) base stocks. But with a great additive package, it can protect better than a group IV or V with poor additive package. There's a FCP sale on oil change kit ($92): $82 for 10L Pentosin HP II 5W40 with $10 for Mahle filter and filter wrench and includes shipping.
for what its worth i always use the drain plug, my thinking is as the oil rapidly flows out it carries any particles with it, or at least most particles anyway
i have a lift though so bottom oil changes are a breeze
i am using amsoil euro 5/30 229.51spec this time around but used mid saps amsoil 5w40 last time.
the amsoil euro 5w30 is low saps
i do not go 10,000 miles, i go 6-7,000 miles or once a year on my vehicles
09 bluetec
Im a drain plug user myself too, btw, changed oil in OM648 at 175k miles the other night after putting 14 k miles on previous oil change, total oil consumption in 14k miles was less than .5 liter. I have a vacuum oil pump and have done both ways, easier yes, but I prefer putting car up on my lift and inspecting lots of other stuff while all the realistic oil possible drains out which takes a bit. My OM642 Sprinter gets same treatment. These sludge/seizures are not caused by the oil type IMHO, they are caused by very excessive internal heating of the oil from the pictures.
There are differing opinions as to where is best to drain the oil from. On many vehicles, through the dipstick tube actually reaches to a lower point in the oil pan.
.
His is 2009 e350 4 matic that I expected the dip tube to reach the bottom.
If evacuation method assumes all is removed without verification, the sludgest oil is left behind to contaminate the new oil.
I would expect the oil at 4K to look diesel dirty if the oil is suspending the soot.
With the high price of the oil and diesel fuel, is a diesel still more ecomical to drive than a gasser? And sludge, go module, dpf service, etc.
Last edited by dave2001auto; 04-21-2016 at 10:10 PM.
I noticed that on some Benz's there's a catch point about two inches from the bottom of the dip stick tube. Seem where the tube meets the casting, maybe? I just have to give it a little jiggle, and it goes the rest of the way.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by dave2001auto
Does Pentosin high performance II 5w40, a HC oil, show the sludgling problems? Is it a good oil? What about the oci for this oil?
Any relation to oil draining by vacuuming v. Drain plug methods? It seems like the bottle drain would remove larger particles and some sludge.
The 3 approved Pentosin products are:
Pento High Performance II 5W-40 x Deutsche Pentosin-Werke GmbH, Wedel/Deutschland
Pento Super Performance III 5W-30 x Deutsche Pentosin-Werke GmbH, Wedel/Deutschland
Pentosynth HC 5W-40 x Deutsche Pentosin-Werke GmbH, Wedel/Deutschland
Pentosin is a highly credible organisation & their products are fine. OCI as recomended by Benz.
Theory tells one that you might remove more particulates by drain plug but that is offset by most of them ending up in the oil filter & magnetic particles trapped by the sump/pan magnet. Oxidation catalyses further oxidation so getting as much old oil out as possible is important. You don't want crap in your ice cream!
In reality with Benz I have noticed zero difference in representative sampling of used oil that one method is any better than the other. Benz dealerships all suck out used oil with no adverse experience!
I think the sludge problems are most likely due to too long of drain intervals or incorrect oil spec.
You can't use non-Euro spec oils in any MB even if it does have the correct weight. They have different additives and properties. I've tried non Euro Car formula Mobil 1 before in M112 engines, and you get foaming shortly thereafter.
I noticed that the MB oil filters are much smaller. They were huge in the 80's, large in the early 2000's and in my 2009 tiny. Could lack for filtration, i.e., clogged filter be leading to sludge and gelling of the oil? No oil, excess heat and polymerization?
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Filter technology, media and debris carrying capability without pump through has improved vastly over the years. This is not a filter issue & there is zero evidence of filters going into bypass.
03-24-2016, 11:45 PM
