Diesel Forum Forum for Diesel engine vehicle related discussion
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Another 2010 ML350 Bluetec engine seized

Old Sep 19, 2021 | 10:19 PM
  #701  
krrs's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 17
Likes: 2
2011 E350 Blue Tech /1985 300CT Coupe
Originally Posted by Gazwould
Rotella T6 scored 218th for oil film strength out of 254 oils tested , why bother ?

First not to be nit-picky, that is a 2016 and back formulation. The new post 2017 Rotella T6 formulation is different and is Ck-4 rated. Why I chose to use is it is a good compromise of properties, it is readily available and it is the highest selling oil nationwide for the new emission system DEF SCR heavy duty fleet applications, and it is inexpensive compared to most. At Tractor Supply in Indiana it runs $55 2.5 gal or on sale $49. 2.5 gal when I purchased in the last week.. All these add up to changing it at 3000 to 5000 miles. Why so low??? Well if I am am in Indiana in the winter I go with 3-4000 miles, or summer if I am not driving on the highway everyday. In the summer I go 4-5000 miles no matter what. But I have no one in Indiana I can trust with it, so must do myself. With the record of use behind that oil in commercial fleet use with heavy duty diesels in over the road catalyst, DEF, and SCR systems... how can one argue? But if I were thinking I could suffer the shipping problems of Denmark to USA I would use -> https://www.weboil.dk/shop/172-ws2-t...w40---5-liter/
Reply
Old Sep 19, 2021 | 10:27 PM
  #702  
krrs's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 17
Likes: 2
2011 E350 Blue Tech /1985 300CT Coupe
Originally Posted by dave2001auto
T6 oil $50 for 2.5 gallons is a deal. Runs about $50 gal in NJ🥲. Pennzoil euro L 1.25 gal jug $13 when on sale to $25 regular price.
The 100% synthetic oil have more problem of contamination sludging than blends😟
PAOs base has lowest sludge dispensing ability.
100% synthetic shine at the temperature extremes. No one size fits all.
There are great III oils that have excellent sludge protection and high temperature stability and wear properties but too expensive due to a be additive package.

I would not try to improve a manufacturer’s additive package. Odds are the modifications will make it worse.

for short drives a blend and frequent oil changes.
long distance AZ summer driving 100% synthetic.
I do pretty frequent oil changes 5,000 miles but if it is winter and I am short trips most of the time, then I may go down to 3,000. But add a $10 oil filter and $50-55 oil, it is worth it.
Though if not for the hassle and twice the price I might consider this stuff... https://www.weboil.dk/shop/172-ws2-t...w40---5-liter/
Then I look back on by old 1981 MB diesel... and using mineral oil (no synthetic) for 26 years of faithful service... why I never looked further is, a friend with a huge experience in diesel engine test and development said it any high ash heavy duty diesel oil would work... I changed every 1500 mi. and used 15w-40, good enough. No problems! Besides my kind of use and attention would never allow any sludge build up anyway.

Last edited by krrs; Sep 19, 2021 at 10:29 PM. Reason: addition
Reply
Old Sep 20, 2021 | 12:23 AM
  #703  
kajtek1's Avatar
MBWorld Fanatic!
15 Year Member
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,224
Likes: 1,798
From: V E G A S
1922 Ford Model T / no OBD
Changing oil at 5,000 miles makes the engine running on constant overdose of detergents and anti acids.
The same affect will be by running 10,000 miles on the oil and shave some soap bar + couple of spoons of battery acid at 5000 miles.
It will not kill the engine on short note, but don't expect it to last for milion miles, like properly maintained engines do.
As comparing the engines, the 3 liter 1985 diesel produced 120 HP,
the 3 liter in 2015 makes 250 HP.
Reply
Old Sep 20, 2021 | 02:13 AM
  #704  
Gazwould's Avatar
Super Member
 
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 882
Likes: 159
S204 C250 CDI Sport
Originally Posted by krrs
I do pretty frequent oil changes 5,000 miles but if it is winter and I am short trips most of the time, then I may go down to 3,000. But add a $10 oil filter and $50-55 oil, it is worth it.
Though if not for the hassle and twice the price I might consider this stuff... https://www.weboil.dk/shop/172-ws2-t...w40---5-liter/
Then I look back on by old 1981 MB diesel... and using mineral oil (no synthetic) for 26 years of faithful service... why I never looked further is, a friend with a huge experience in diesel engine test and development said it any high ash heavy duty diesel oil would work... I changed every 1500 mi. and used 15w-40, good enough. No problems! Besides my kind of use and attention would never allow any sludge build up anyway.

Tungsten Disulfide , now we're talking...
Reply
Old Sep 20, 2021 | 04:38 PM
  #705  
dave2001auto's Avatar
Senior Member
10 Year Member
Liked
 
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 493
Likes: 14
84 300d 2009 e320 bluetec (retired)/, now 2012 E350 4-matic blueefficiency automatic
229.51 is not an updated version of 229.5.
The oil passages have been made narrower, so the oil needs to be thinner especially for the start up and cold temperatures.
Modern Mercedes have oil specification for the 40 weight oil to be on the lower range of the viscosity of the 40 weight range.
HD diesel 40 weight oils are on the high viscosity side of the 40 weight range.
Modern Mercedes have oil specification for the 30 weight oil to be on the high range of the viscosity of the 30 weight range. It's almost a light 40 weight oil.
The 229.52 30 weight oil viscosity is slightly lower than the 229.51 specification.

The emission system is dumping exhaust gas (water vapors) into the cold oil. Water and contaminates with heat give rise to sludge. Once the sludge gets to a certain concentration, the oil can't keep it suspended and it sticks to the engine. Small blockages rapid lead to more sludge in the passage that causes oil starvation and super heating. Super heating give raise to rapid polymerization. Dino oil is better in keeping the sludge in solution, but can't last the high temperature without an expensive additive package and long OCI.

Europeans are not know for frequent oil changes and have more gas and oil rated oil (fleet oils in the USA). A trade off on the best oil vs. keeping inventory low.

Toyota had a sludging problem on gas engine that was solved in two steps: 1. large cooling fan and lower thermostat (extra charge for that mandatory option $300 -- an external oil cooler was another option as the towing package ~$400. 2. Redesign the engine to have large oil return channels.

Mercedes should consider larger passages, but a great European and America engineers would design the engine to have 99.9999% reliability during the warranty period and have most fail two to three years after the warranty period.
Reply
Old Sep 20, 2021 | 09:54 PM
  #706  
krrs's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 17
Likes: 2
2011 E350 Blue Tech /1985 300CT Coupe
Originally Posted by kajtek1
Changing oil at 5,000 miles makes the engine running on constant overdose of detergents and anti acids.
The same affect will be by running 10,000 miles on the oil and shave some soap bar + couple of spoons of battery acid at 5000 miles.
It will not kill the engine on short note, but don't expect it to last for milion miles, like properly maintained engines do.
As comparing the engines, the 3 liter 1985 diesel produced 120 HP,
the 3 liter in 2015 makes 250 HP.
My 1981 diesel (non turbo) I owned for 26 years before, I gave to a neighbor lady, got mineral oil changes every 1500 miles of Heavy Duty Truck oil with high ash. In those days I was living in S.Cal. a very close to a major Deale/Distributor for Chevron produces... that stocked Delo 400+ 15w-40, they took my used oil back, and had key card refueling for fleet customer, and my MB... though the price was a little higher than diesel sold at some stations, I could drive in anytime day or night, everyday. The lube oil I purchased was mainly in 5 gal. buckets (which they filled from a 10,000 gallon tank as needed), I did try the 30 gal barrels are a little unhandy. I changed oil and filter every 1500 miles. This is the feed my mom's car got for most of its life, too; though it still has few miles and is an 1985 300CTD with the later OM617A. Their lubrication engineer recommended and several friends I'd see at SAE meetings, though Rotella and most heavy duty diesel oils were considered very similar.

The automotive/engine manager Mr. McFarland at Garrett/AiReasearch, now called Honeywell, when they did the OM617A engine design and qualification for MB told me oh some 10 years after the development now over 25+ years ago) after those programs ended the development oil testing showed even at 5000 miles with mineral oil insufficient cause to change due to contamination loading or reduction in its additive package or its breakdown. But I remember he said my 1500 miles oil change interval could not matter much. I did for security, and I have always been fastidious about car maintenance... so perhaps that is why I never have major mechanical issues. Those included engines that saw all kinds of cycle testing, Garrett in Torrance, CA had more than 20 fully equipped research engine test cells. Bob Mullen, formally of White Motors, and Chysler and Ford before ran Garrett's test facility during the MB work... before he also when he ran Chysler's Performance test and support efforts for Racing (drag, circle track... everything)... he knew all the racers in the late 1950s through the early 1970s. Bob designed Donovan's engine and was on the team of Chysler for the old 426 Hemi (he often gets sole credit). He left to start his own engine performance company in the 1970s... mainly doing head. Chrysler offered him the patterns and production equipment for several of the racing engines, he turned it down, as I remember the Aluminum Hemi stuff went to Black. Back when I worked, he and I worked on several engine projects, some really out there projects, and this included diesels. Bob also designed several aircraft motors and a tank motor in his later career doing consulting.

If I'd been in Pennsylvania I would probably have used "Pennsylvania Oil". The last brands are made still in one refinery... they have high performance, and another line of fleet products like diesel lube oil. However, they do not make them to any manufacturers specs. but do qualify to API and ACEA. Performance oils: https://penngrade1.com D-A for the non-performance, fleet, marine and industrial market. Pennsylvania Oil, real stuff you can tell by the smell and florescence of green coloration, is just about the best lubricant for any engine or machine... it is very durable... and used can be re-refined, and not lose any properties. My grandfathers both used those oils, but without any additive package... back in the 1920-1930s... one in his Rickenbacker and the other in his Packards... it was not until the later 1950s and early 1960s that additive packages were used, but the military had developed ZDDP during WW2, it and PCV on engines were kept as important National Secrets. Oh, yea that company sells "non detergent or oil without additive packages" and also synthetic and blends. My feeling go with the mineral oil, except in modern high output engines. You know the M276 version of the OM642 engine puts out a specific horsepower and torque rating almost identical to the 1960's F1 Grand Prix cars...

Quite frankly, this is the first time I have ever heard of too often oil changes being hard on engines and causing them to wear out! Hold on that is untrue, my material grandfather had a 1955 Buick that he put detergent oil in and that caused a major engine failure due to breaking loose and overloading the oil system with sudden release of sludge deposits. Usually, its the other way. I have never had an engine fail or wear out in my personal vehicles, I did have a driver for my race car, way back when, drive one of my race cars out of oil in a long race because he would not pit (had an oil pan gasket leak)... that was officially my problem and mistake as the pan gasket seal failed... even though kept driving for 12 laps getting a black flag every time around... due to the oil on track issue... why see I got to pay the fines... $1000 per flag.
Reply
Old Sep 21, 2021 | 01:21 AM
  #707  
krrs's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 17
Likes: 2
2011 E350 Blue Tech /1985 300CT Coupe
Originally Posted by dave2001auto
229.51 is not an updated version of 229.5.
The oil passages have been made narrower, so the oil needs to be thinner especially for the start up and cold temperatures.
Modern Mercedes have oil specification for the 40 weight oil to be on the lower range of the viscosity of the 40 weight range.
HD diesel 40 weight oils are on the high viscosity side of the 40 weight range.
Modern Mercedes have oil specification for the 30 weight oil to be on the high range of the viscosity of the 30 weight range. It's almost a light 40 weight oil.
The 229.52 30 weight oil viscosity is slightly lower than the 229.51 specification.

The emission system is dumping exhaust gas (water vapors) into the cold oil. Water and contaminates with heat give rise to sludge. Once the sludge gets to a certain concentration, the oil can't keep it suspended and it sticks to the engine. Small blockages rapid lead to more sludge in the passage that causes oil starvation and super heating. Super heating give raise to rapid polymerization. Dino oil is better in keeping the sludge in solution, but can't last the high temperature without an expensive additive package and long OCI.

Europeans are not know for frequent oil changes and have more gas and oil rated oil (fleet oils in the USA). A trade off on the best oil vs. keeping inventory low.

Toyota had a sludging problem on gas engine that was solved in two steps: 1. large cooling fan and lower thermostat (extra charge for that mandatory option $300 -- an external oil cooler was another option as the towing package ~$400. 2. Redesign the engine to have large oil return channels.

Mercedes should consider larger passages, but a great European and America engineers would design the engine to have 99.9999% reliability during the warranty period and have most fail two to three years after the warranty period.
So to throttle fluid flow through a passage you have to reduce area by about 2/3rd. to 3/4th of the area to reduce mass flow rate. Those must be darn tiny little oil holes! Though I imagine work just fine, the Germans engineers I known and worked for and nearly to a man very well far from stupid or ignorant, just always intolerant and aloof. I would suggest you go read Harry Ricardo's "The High Speed Engine" and his autobiography, also I would suggest some reading by either Taylor brother at MIT or "Piston" Joe Liston at Purdue. I have an original copy of all of them, one signed by Ricardo, and one given to me by Ricardo Engineers representative in England... and I also have an original pre-publication of Joe Liston's book on Aircraft Engine Design. That later book has all the engineering calculations for designing any engine and the approach that is still taken to this day. Hugo Junkers is another great lesson as is Charles Kettering, even Ralph Teeter, and Henry Ford. But few have the brilliance of Nikola Tesla. I had an old colleague Abe who was Director of the Army's Advanced Research Labs at Aberdeen until 1995, had 4 masters under his belt, who had taken classes from Piston Joe while getting his undergraduate in Aeronautical Engineering in the early 1940s... had actually taken the class on Piston Engine Design from Piston Joe who was in his 80's then... one lot of work to do to finish it, too. FYI this book is in copy reprint available from Amazon. Ricardo's fundamental research showed on mechanical machines that lube oil even without oil passages spread evenly over the bearing an rubbing surfaces of any machine, during operation of like an piston engine very quickly, and the only need of pressure lubrication was to provide cooling to prevent thermal deterioration of the sliding or bearing surfaces and oil by convection cooling. The caveat being this was before man and the space age...
. This from an engineering standpoint means the passages are designed to provide cooling oil to keep temperatures down for the life of the underlying bearing or wear surfaces and keep the lubricant doing the lubrication from breaking down. I don't really care to have someone suppose this or that... as to a design and design scheme on the OM642 because it does not matter. So must I will believe your claims over that fundamental research and engineering sense of proportion. It would only be a non sequitur. Internal combustion engines mechanical design reached the high point during WW2... other than materials engineering and electronic control based mainly on pulse width modulation (which a personal friend of mine Warren Boardman was the originating inventor)... so I am going to take your highly qualified advice or believe it? And, the MB specifications for oil lubricant recommendations are easily located here https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevol...&language_id=1 . Yep sire, I was born yesterday. Fine you want to argue over trivial details, but how much do they matter is an unknown that is indeterminate. I used to get this from junior engineers just out of school... and it was always the one's I was taking my free time to remedial educate to pass a PE exam and qualification, or who I wanted to fire but the director or manager of engineering would claim, 'it would ruin their careers'. My retort is cannot they remember even a short time what they have already learned, I need them with down to earth. common sense at least I have respect for this guy and maybe even hire him
.

Too often people on these internet forums use them to take out aggression or hostility they may have. What I am trying to do his help understand a potential problem. That comes out of the recent Bluetec Settlement. Why is because my belief is the attorneys in that suit violated candor, a necessary aspect of any legal process, without which tips the balance justice provides in our civilizations' experience. The oil specs here have nothing and everything to do with the problems of the OM642 engine. For the owners it is reliability and good service for money, for the regulators it is minimizing emissons and compliance with regulations as law. For MB it is largely financial as it is for the attorneys involved. I happen not to like very little people and companies who are more concerned with their own bottom line and profit, over dumping problems they create on unsuspecting owners, just like; nor fools and bureaucrats abusing the taxpayer and his liberty. Owners who purchased these cars in good faith! If it is a confusion of the oil specifications as Mr. Stephan's the former 5 time World Wide Service Manager of the Year and expert infers; poor operation and service keeping by the owners, or; defective products from design, regulatory, manufacture, or service information and work involved by the dealers/servicers, all of it comes down to a failure costly to the customer. To be perfectly honest, the settlement does noting to solve most of the underlying problems and expenses the owners suffer but enrich those attorneys and shield the manufacturer from financial responsibility for all the costs and damages due the owners. Honestly, the money involved in that settlement likely smartly applied could make everyone happy, with a little common sense applied to it and a fair and impartial balance made. Do the attorneys really deserve some $300 millions of dollars? Are the real concerns and problems of the owners being addressed? And, is MB really best served financially with a settlement designed to stiff arm its customers. I think none of these are fair or balanced herein, and the court involved failed in its duty to provide balance. Perhaps another emission reduction scheme should be considered, combined emission catalyst, DEF and SCR are all after treatment. How about not making the toxic emissions in the first place, could that be accomplished... what could be done to reduce the problems of an engine run at high levels is not mainly recirculated exhaust gas... could the DEF fluid be better used to reduce emissions... could the thing be qualified, even after the fact, as a dual fuel vehicle with beneficial regulatory burden reductions... could the costs be decreased... and how many of the vehicles really exceed the emission standard in day to day use. I can pretty well say my car has zero of the problems, and I will have emissions tests before and after done, as I think at least my car does not have the problem. Why I look into the exhaust pipe and see little if any noticeable residues attached, I have never seen one little bit of diesel exhaust smoke even on startup on cold days, my catalyst loading is always single digits, the EGR acts more as a throttle than an after treatment which I tracking the live data off the engine while driving, I use so little DEF fluid it is almost negligible, the rate of engine oil consumption is between 0.5 and 0.75 quarts for 5000 miles driving, and I have not noticed any engine running problems until I have seen some intake air system soot recently (which will be given service shortly), and then only slightly; I did get a code situation and limp home after I cleaned the MAF sensor... this was later traced to the sensors mass air flow output being used with the EGR valve position to calculate the EGR flow and percent of inlet air flow by the ECU, what happens when the two sensors have different readings, due to calibration, this shows up as EGR flow problem and trips a code and limp home.

A little story to pass on, a boss, mentor, and later very good friend was Director of Advanced Development (a job he was hired to mentor me into so I would as the company president said... keep from getting the company in trouble). Anyway my friend Warren Boardman had worked at Marquardt Corp. in that capacity, they were an avant garde aerospace propulsion company, and company president was Roy Marquardt... a protégé student of von Karman at Cal Tec in the the 1930s, later professor of Aeronautical Engineering at USC, later president of this up and coming company in the 1950-60s. Warren had phenomenal success history most largely don't know... without his technologies there would have been no Apollo Program success, Spy Satellite dominance, and space defense. Anyway Warren had been engineering student at CalTech and USC in the 1930s, and worked with Kelly Johnson at Lockheed on the P38 project during the war before leaving at 25 years old to be general manager of General Aircraft in Burbank, CA which produced over 5,000 observation aircraft during WW2 (he got that job as he had gray hair early). Anyway, Kelly (who I later knew when I was at Lockheed ADP, and who was my neighbor) would come over to Van Nuys to discuss problems that they were having with the various mysterious projects with Warren. But every time, Roy would hold the meeting (if he got wind of it) in his office. Of course Kelly had no time for Roy as he considered him lets say, colorful and avant garde, Warren said Kelly quietly listened to Roy... then after about 45 minutes to an hour Roy would get tried of being the only one talking... and leave for some other distraction. Nearly, every time when Roy left the first thing Kelly would say, "I thought that blabber mouth would never shut up!" Kelly was a quiet natured Swede, matter of fact, and suffered no fool. Warren suffered them less. My first talk with Kelly shortly after I started working in APD, I was complaining about the engineers had gone out on strike, and my job I was reporting for evaporated that I had no money, so they put me to work in ADP machine shop... my complaint was I couldn't seem to get back out of it. His reply was, "Best thing in the world for an engineer to have to spend at least a year or so in the shops!" Course, I had only worked there about a week... when I was complaining. And, I did get a brand new Monarch 10ee tool room lathe to work on worth $85,000 at the time... the very next day gleaming like a 1950s new car... with instructions from the boss it was "Only for my use!" This raised eyebrows with the older staff and the shop lead and manager. See I as a youngster, I to needing machined parts for my projects. So I took machine shop and had official qualification in it, and owned a small shop for supporting my personal projects (pictures of which got me hired then in that field). On the other hand, I served a full term in the Naval Nuclear Power Program, including work on a Research Reactor at Knolls Nuclear Labs, experienced everything one could in that including a major fuel element failure, and research on the reactor in its aftermath, and been in charge of a reactor plant electrical group, also had served in the Army in combat, had two undergraduate degree bio-evolutionary anthropology, electrical engineering, and a master in physics from the Pierre et Marie Curie Université, Paris No.6 Sorbonne. So I thought I might escape... but I think on it now... Kelly purposefully held me back. In the mean time after a year, I moved to Rocketdyne to work on the development of the first Shuttle engine turbo pumps, before returning. And, the year and half in the ADP shops are a cherished time to me. The particular incident, relayed to me, as to Kellys aggravation peak, was when the Y-12 aircraft (SR-71) could not fly fast and meet anywhere near the intended performance... due to thermal overload problems. Within a week Warren's small team figured out a solution by using latent heat of evaporation of the fuel to cool the critical concerns, Art Ackerman a really sharp fluid dynamists worked out the analytics of the solution which satisfied Kelly and Marquardt and Lockheed quickly had the thing working right. Though the other major concern was to remain normal shock wave control in the engine inlets as that was very difficult under any conditions... and would nearly tear wings off or badly injure the crew much like hitting a tree at 60mph in a car; disregarding nearly every time the plane flew rather scarily important parts peeled or where worn off by the airflow and heat. Sad Kelly slipped in Alzheimers... but l Warren's fate was worse incapacitated with a stroke, unable to move and talk, surviving a nursing home little over 4 years... both Warren and Abe (Parkinson's) within a month of my proof and success of my little magic flying wing. The thing that is really hard to take is how Adm. Rickover was treated, not only did the man serve under the most difficult conditions the country for 63 years, the longest active duty of anyone ever, but his nuclear shield and machines are what have prevented our obliteration.

A final comment... what does anything matter? Today perhaps what do any of us matter perhaps Elon Musk is right about AI, perhaps a friend when I was in university is right... she honestly advocated their were 2 billion people on earth then and it should be reduced to 50 million, in true belief in utopia. Perhaps all that will be true and the 42 million billionaires existing today will survive over the dead bodies of nearly 8 billion today to make way or to accomplish... what... opening the way again for the rise of totalitarian fascism we live with today:Rosa Koire exposes the UN Agenda 2030…


New Video… coming sooner than one might think

Codex - interesting maybe this is why everybody is getting so fat.

These are all emblematic of the construct of bureaucracy and bureaucratic control. Fascism adopted like in 1930s Germany that to make the Holocaust and great evils, we see it rising again, like in 18th Century France:

The great lesson... January 6th, 2021 US Congress… We learned our leaders fear the People.

Opening Statement -
In regard to our time in America with the Capitol city fortified against the people.... with their representatives cowering behind 25,000 troops in fear of the People.... Perhaps the lesson of the Second Revolution of Enlightenment, the French Revolution, with far more sang versè, is to be remembered… Lest not forget after Camille Desmoulins se tenait sur une table dressant la, «Prise de la Bastille», and after it fell and freed hardly a handful les détenus mentalement diminuées, as be our President, King Louis XVI was far more brave then our Combined Congress House and Senate to face the People, to go to the Hotel de Ville [city hall], accompanied by a then little known Robespierre, into the heart of the mob without protection, and the royal peacemaker pinned his des royale soleils blanc on the rouge et bleu cocarde du Paris, symbol of the new order, the colours du Paris with the blanc of the monarchy yet not fully comprehending it was a revolution, et il a fait le premier tricolore pour la République et il a déclaré l'amour sans les baisers: « Je suis très satisfait. Vous pouvez toujours compter sur mon amour. » And, he meant it, shall this Congress be so brave, heavens no, and they are far more foolish! [Trans fr. - and he declared love without the kisses: “I am very satisfied. You can always count on my love.”]

Understand Louis was victim of the French crushing court, governmental and social bureaucracy, and actually supported and loved the people more than our current representatives. And, Louis believed in the principles of the Enlightenment... but was trapped by a toxic bureaucracy out to defend themselves hiding in the dark. Our leaders wherever they are created, support, defend and use the bureaucracy over and against the People to end Representative Government.

The propaganda of fear is anxiety of the believer... but what is propaganda but lies to create fear... when there is nothing to fear... of those that speak the propaganda. Yes, I too have anxiety... of the nameless faceless bureaucrat... who makes the propaganda hidden by dark behind safe doors to have others speak it... for others to fear... "pour que les autres aient peur ... ni l'épée ni le loup ... pas le sang fendu ... mais le mot." ->
[trans. fr. - "so that others are afraid ... neither the sword nor the wolf ... not the split blood ... but the word."]

Somehow, we must fear the Third Revolution of the Enlightenment after the American First and the French Second being with far more sang versè soaked into the dirt of America to nourish Liberty, and before that extreme another path ought to be sought. Translated in comments -
Reply
Old Sep 21, 2021 | 03:42 AM
  #708  
Gazwould's Avatar
Super Member
 
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 882
Likes: 159
S204 C250 CDI Sport
Originally Posted by dave2001auto
229.51 is not an updated version of 229.5.
The oil passages have been made narrower, so the oil needs to be thinner especially for the start up and cold temperatures.
Modern Mercedes have oil specification for the 40 weight oil to be on the lower range of the viscosity of the 40 weight range.
HD diesel 40 weight oils are on the high viscosity side of the 40 weight range.
Modern Mercedes have oil specification for the 30 weight oil to be on the high range of the viscosity of the 30 weight range. It's almost a light 40 weight oil.
The 229.52 30 weight oil viscosity is slightly lower than the 229.51 specification.

The emission system is dumping exhaust gas (water vapors) into the cold oil. Water and contaminates with heat give rise to sludge. Once the sludge gets to a certain concentration, the oil can't keep it suspended and it sticks to the engine. Small blockages rapid lead to more sludge in the passage that causes oil starvation and super heating. Super heating give raise to rapid polymerization. Dino oil is better in keeping the sludge in solution...

How is dino oil better in keeping sludge in solution , it's not my understanding and so can you pick a Mercedes dino oil manufacturer oil spec in your opinion that is good for keeping sludge in solution ?
Reply
MB World Stories

The Best of Mercedes & AMG

story-0

6 Mercedes Models That Did NOT Age Well (But Are Somehow Still Cool)

 Verdad Gallardo
story-1

Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun

 Verdad Gallardo
story-2

Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren

 Verdad Gallardo
story-3

8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine

 Verdad Gallardo
story-4

Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction

 Verdad Gallardo
story-5

Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know

 Verdad Gallardo
story-6

Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know

 Verdad Gallardo
story-7

5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve

 Verdad Gallardo
story-8

Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping

 Verdad Gallardo
story-9

10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used

 Verdad Gallardo
Old Nov 12, 2021 | 11:29 PM
  #709  
Ryanne's Avatar
Newbie
 
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: San Diego, CA
2012 ML 350 Bluetec
Oil consumtion

Has anyone been told that their Bluetec has multiple engine leaks? O was also told that out was due to my piston oil rings are carboned up and the only day to eliminate this turning into something major is putting in a used engine for a grand total of $21,000. Are you kidding me? Any other solutions found?
Reply
Old Nov 15, 2021 | 06:28 PM
  #710  
dave2001auto's Avatar
Senior Member
10 Year Member
Liked
 
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 493
Likes: 14
84 300d 2009 e320 bluetec (retired)/, now 2012 E350 4-matic blueefficiency automatic
Originally Posted by Ryanne
Has anyone been told that their Bluetec has multiple engine leaks? O was also told that out was due to my piston oil rings are carboned up and the only day to eliminate this turning into something major is putting in a used engine for a grand total of $21,000. Are you kidding me? Any other solutions found?
At $21,000 for a used over priced engine, I would take a gamble. If my car — my non expert opinion.
Dino oil to try to clear out sludge. Drop the oil pan and remove as much as possible. Reassemble and Dino oil change every 2000 miles and lots of praying.
Dino oil high in naphthalenic oil are better in dissolving or keeping sludge suspenses than Long Branched chain and long straight chain saturated hydrocarbons (Synthetic oils). Think of getting tar off a bucket.
You want to get some cleaning each change and not have a big chunk come loose and clog the screen or passage.

Last edited by dave2001auto; Nov 15, 2021 at 06:35 PM.
Reply
Old Nov 15, 2021 | 06:41 PM
  #711  
Diabolis's Avatar
MBWorld Fanatic!
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,745
Likes: 811
From: The Great White North
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, Taycan GTS Sport Turismo, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars
Originally Posted by Ryanne
... the only day to eliminate this turning into something major is putting in a used engine for a grand total of $21,000...
Er - the only way to eliminate this turning into something MAJOR? Unless they are suggesting that the universe may stop to exist, engine replacement is about as major as things get.

Flush everything as well as you can. Refill the oil and drive the snot out of it for ~200km (force it to stay close to red line by selecting a lower gear with left paddle), flush oil and refill again, drive the snot out of it, repeat again. Re-evaluate engine condition. While this will NOT undo years of neglect, it might prolong the inevitable by a year or two.
Reply
Old Nov 15, 2021 | 06:42 PM
  #712  
dave2001auto's Avatar
Senior Member
10 Year Member
Liked
 
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 493
Likes: 14
84 300d 2009 e320 bluetec (retired)/, now 2012 E350 4-matic blueefficiency automatic
Originally Posted by Gazwould
How is dino oil better in keeping sludge in solution , it's not my understanding and so can you pick a Mercedes dino oil manufacturer oil spec in your opinion that is good for keeping sludge in solution ?
the Dino oil would not last the OCI and low ASP specifications Mercedes has. I don’t know of one off hand. high naphthalenic oils degrade rapidly, so the OCI is short.
Reply
Old Nov 16, 2021 | 02:40 AM
  #713  
Gazwould's Avatar
Super Member
 
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 882
Likes: 159
S204 C250 CDI Sport
Exactly , this is bad advice and I've never seen a dino oil good for sludge .


Reply
Old Nov 16, 2021 | 11:35 AM
  #714  
300SE1993's Avatar
MBWorld Fanatic!
Photogenic
Photoriffic
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 277
From: Northeast
2012 S350 Bluetec, 2014 GLK250 Bluetec, 2026 E350 4Matic
Originally Posted by Ryanne
Has anyone been told that their Bluetec has multiple engine leaks? O was also told that out was due to my piston oil rings are carboned up and the only day to eliminate this turning into something major is putting in a used engine for a grand total of $21,000. Are you kidding me? Any other solutions found?
What are your symptoms? Sounds like this mechanic might be trying to screw you over?
Reply
Old Nov 22, 2021 | 07:57 AM
  #715  
dave2001auto's Avatar
Senior Member
10 Year Member
Liked
 
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 493
Likes: 14
84 300d 2009 e320 bluetec (retired)/, now 2012 E350 4-matic blueefficiency automatic
Originally Posted by Gazwould
Exactly , this is bad advice and I've never seen a dino oil good for sludge .
Do you know what the “detergents” and carriers that’s put into synthetic oil ?
do you know what the engine flushes are?
Reply
Old Nov 22, 2021 | 09:54 AM
  #716  
kajtek1's Avatar
MBWorld Fanatic!
15 Year Member
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,224
Likes: 1,798
From: V E G A S
1922 Ford Model T / no OBD
Originally Posted by Gazwould
How is dino oil better in keeping sludge in solution , it's not my understanding and so can you pick a Mercedes dino oil manufacturer oil spec in your opinion that is good for keeping sludge in solution ?
Common knowledge is that synthetic oils stick better to the surface, therefore give you better protection in case your engine will get in situation of loosing oil pressure.
All the rest is in chem/detergent pack, however when you do oil test, you will find that synthetic oils are loaded with molybdenum, who for 200 years is known for lowering the friction between working engine surfaces. For some reasons the dino oils I know did not have the substance.
I always follow MB FSS system for oil intervals and my 1998 ML320 was making 13,000 miles on dino oils before US lawyers made us change to synthetics. Sprinters make 20,000 miles before oil change, but they have much bigger oil pans. Never had sludge in engine in my life.
Reply
Old Nov 22, 2021 | 11:58 AM
  #717  
Diabolis's Avatar
MBWorld Fanatic!
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,745
Likes: 811
From: The Great White North
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, Taycan GTS Sport Turismo, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars
Oils from synthetic base stocks are considerably better at resisting shear and maintaining their viscosity across a wider temperature range, thereby requiring less viscosity modifiers. As for moly in oils (and by this I mean Molybdenum Dialkyldithiocarbamate - MoDTC - not the MoS2 solid particle crap that some people decide to put in afterwards and causes more problems than it solves) - it has largely being replaced by better friction modifiers like boron and ZDDP even in oils that used it before.

Considering how far oil chemistry has evolved over the last 20 years alone, aside from cost there are absolutely ZERO advantages to dino oil vs. a synthetic. All other things being equal, a conventional motor oil is worse that a synthetic in every measurable respect except for the manufacturing costs.

Reply
Old Nov 22, 2021 | 01:31 PM
  #718  
kajtek1's Avatar
MBWorld Fanatic!
15 Year Member
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,224
Likes: 1,798
From: V E G A S
1922 Ford Model T / no OBD
I still am under the impression that synthetics are recommended for cars on the same principals the AGM batteries are. For additional features average driver on average car will never experience in their life.
I did compare several oils years ago on older Ford Powerstroke and both dino and synthetic oils had the same 4 parts of boron.
But when dino oil had 1 of molybdenum, the synthetic had 58. So is it the oil base that makes it better for average use, or is it chem pack?
From what I read, Europe did not fall under the sale pitch. Most of high-end oils are mixes.
Reply
Old Nov 22, 2021 | 02:19 PM
  #719  
Diabolis's Avatar
MBWorld Fanatic!
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,745
Likes: 811
From: The Great White North
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, Taycan GTS Sport Turismo, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars
Originally Posted by kajtek1
I still am under the impression that synthetics are recommended for cars on the same principals the AGM batteries are. For additional features average driver on average car will never experience in their life.
I did compare several oils years ago on older Ford Powerstroke and both dino and synthetic oils had the same 4 parts of boron.
But when dino oil had 1 of molybdenum, the synthetic had 58. So is it the oil base that makes it better for average use, or is it chem pack?
From what I read, Europe did not fall under the sale pitch. Most of high-end oils are mixes.
Sure they will. Compared to traditional (mineral) oils, synthetics provide much better protection. They flow much more easily when cold (and keep in mind that for your average driver, 75%-90% of engine wear occurs at cold startup). They do not evaporate or disintegrate like conventional oils at slightly elevated temperatures, so if you have a turbocharged car like on our MLs that little bit of oil that remains in the turbo bearing at ~400C after you shut the engine off is not going to get cooked in 0.2 seconds, letting it run completely dry. They are considerably cleaner (the base stocks themselves) and they don't sludge nearly as easily, and they are designed so that they don't oxidize nearly as easily. All of these properties in turn allow for longer OCIs with synthetics than with conventional oils, which IMHO is more beneficial to the average Joe than to someone who is say, looking after a fleet of taxi cabs or Sprinters that are in service for ~23 hours a day and get their oil changed every week.

The base stock itself provides the lubrication - the additive (chem pack) provides the detergents, suspension agents, viscosity improvers, friction modifiers, anti-oxidants, etc. etc, The more additives you have to put in, the more you dilute the oil and thus decrease its ability to provide lubrication. A synthetic base stock needs a lot less viscosity improvers, friction modifiers or anti-oxidant additives than mineral oil, so it is going to provide both better lubrication and better protection. In other words, it's the combination of the two - it's a better base stock that also needs fewer additives.

As for people in Europe, keep in mind that their car culture is considerably different from ours, and that their cars both get serviced much more regularly as well as have to pass a technical inspection every year. A mineral / synthetic blend may be perfectly acceptable for a 1.1 liter Citroen Saxo engine that gets driven 4,000 km a year mostly on "longer" trips, but that's not going to fly here where people on average do 20,000 km a year or more and use the car as their primary means of commuting to work and to make 10-minute runs to the supermarket when the oil doesn't ever get to temperature.
Reply
Old Nov 22, 2021 | 04:54 PM
  #720  
dave2001auto's Avatar
Senior Member
10 Year Member
Liked
 
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 493
Likes: 14
84 300d 2009 e320 bluetec (retired)/, now 2012 E350 4-matic blueefficiency automatic
After dropping the pan. No sludge found. No sludge on the valve cover.
10,000 OCI or one year which every was sooner for the bluetec. Used 229.51 oil. Started with mobil one and then when to Penn Euro L (much cheaper).
The 300 TD was with Chevon DELO 15-40, which is a great dino oil. OCI 5,000 or once a year. When two year one time with only 3000 miles. No sludge.
Both has external oil leaks that dripped on the driveway. Cylinders were well sealed as noted by low blow-by. I don't drive much.

Moly is expensive. The additive package is dependent on how much $ the market will bear and manufacturer's profit margin. Zinc (ZDDO) is cheaper and was great until the one engine had a cat poisoning and everybody was required to change the oil formulation. (Government and courts making rules based on the exception instead of the typical or reasonable.)

The oil like grease can be too slick that it doesn't coat well or doesn't allow the bearings to rotate and slide instead. Oil formulation is part science and part art to get the best for the money. Or charge more for hype.

There are many dino oils that work better than synthetic, but cost $$. It's highly refined and with an expensive additive package. Synthetic excel in low and high temperature extremes and OCI due to base break down. With the gas to oil process, the cost of synthetic is slightly higher the cost of good dino oil.
Almost all US synthetic oil is Fisher-Tropsch gas to oil process (branched hydrocarbon and controlled size). It is not group IV nor group V synthetic oil. Many cheaper synthetic don't have a good additive package and can't pass M-B oil test.

edited to can't pass

Last edited by dave2001auto; Dec 6, 2021 at 09:34 AM.
Reply
Old Nov 22, 2021 | 05:20 PM
  #721  
kajtek1's Avatar
MBWorld Fanatic!
15 Year Member
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,224
Likes: 1,798
From: V E G A S
1922 Ford Model T / no OBD
Originally Posted by Diabolis
As for people in Europe, keep in mind that their car culture is considerably different from ours, and that their cars both get serviced much more regularly as well as have to pass a technical inspection every year. A mineral / synthetic blend may be perfectly acceptable for a 1.1 liter Citroen Saxo engine that gets driven 4,000 km a year mostly on "longer" trips, but that's not going to fly here where people on average do 20,000 km a year or more and use the car as their primary means of commuting to work and to make 10-minute runs to the supermarket when the oil doesn't ever get to temperature.
When Poland is not whole Europe, the common perception there about Western Europe auto culture is to drive the cars without service and sell them when warranty, or lease expires.
Poland has average wages much lower than Western Europe, so Polish buy those cars for lower prices and this is 1 of the pictures they discover



Reply
Old Nov 22, 2021 | 10:27 PM
  #722  
nelbur's Avatar
Senior Member
15 Year Member
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 301
Likes: 23
1997 E300D
We do tend to get carried away about oil. Ryanne asked about a "oil consumtion" problem. Didn't mention sludge. The mechanic mentioned oil leaks but that explanation apparently didn't fly. So he decided on the carboned up rings explanation. Ryanne needs to understand that no mechanic can diagnose carboned up rings so easily. Ring problems in general can be discovered with a leak down test, but the exact cause of the ring problem requires a tear down. I have seen stuck rings in a gas engine, but I would be surprised to see stuck rings in a diesel. Some oil consumption is normal. Car manufacturers will tell you that using a quart in 500 miles is "normal". I would consider a quart in a thousand miles to be more nearly reasonable. It is important to understand that oil is cheap and mechanics are expensive.

My opinion is that one can not get into oil trouble if one uses an oil recommended by the manufacturer and changes it frequently. I will not exceed 5000 miles. Just make sure it never runs low.
Reply
Old Nov 22, 2021 | 11:13 PM
  #723  
kajtek1's Avatar
MBWorld Fanatic!
15 Year Member
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,224
Likes: 1,798
From: V E G A S
1922 Ford Model T / no OBD
My friend's Honda 4-banger is using 1 quart of oil for 300 miles. 320,000 miles on the car.
I keep telling him for last 10,000 miles that he needs new car and he has cash for it, yet after 13 years of ownership he become attached to it and is even considering engine replacement, but in the mean time he drives it in western states with big bottle of oil in the trunk
Reply
Old Dec 4, 2021 | 10:59 AM
  #724  
djhagen's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 22
Likes: 4
2012 GL350 Blue Tec
In another post, I described a 2012 GL350 Bluetec sudden death after an oil cooler gasket failure repair. I was going to put a deposit down on a reman engine replacement ($15000) when I learned that the service station had not been 100 honest with me (lots more to that story). The engine seized while they were roadtesting it after the gasket repladement. To make it short, the service station ultimately filed a claim on their insurance and I got a check instead of a bill. Just bought a Nissan Armada, will never buy a mercedes diesel, or maybe never a mercedes, again.
Reply
Old Dec 4, 2021 | 03:34 PM
  #725  
Diabolis's Avatar
MBWorld Fanatic!
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,745
Likes: 811
From: The Great White North
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, Taycan GTS Sport Turismo, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars
Originally Posted by djhagen
In another post, I described a 2012 GL350 Bluetec sudden death after an oil cooler gasket failure repair. I was going to put a deposit down on a reman engine replacement ($15000) when I learned that the service station had not been 100 honest with me (lots more to that story). The engine seized while they were roadtesting it after the gasket repladement. To make it short, the service station ultimately filed a claim on their insurance and I got a check instead of a bill. Just bought a Nissan Armada, will never buy a mercedes diesel, or maybe never a mercedes, again.
Let me get this straight: your engine seized after you let an untrained tech at some service station replace the oil cooler gasket, and you'll never buy another Mercedes because it is somehow their fault?
Please make sure to take the Nissan to the same service station for any repairs it may need.
Reply

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:
You have already rated this thread Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 3.67 average.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:06 AM.

story-0
6 Mercedes Models That Did NOT Age Well (But Are Somehow Still Cool)

Slideshow: Not every Mercedes design becomes timeless, some feel stuck in the era they came from.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-12 18:09:07


VIEW MORE
story-1
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun

Slideshow: Yes, Mercedes built manual cars, and some of them are far more interesting than you'd expect.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-02 12:36:58


VIEW MORE
story-2
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren

Slideshow: A one-of-one U.S.-spec Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren Roadster became even rarer after a factory-backed transformation at McLaren's headquarters.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-29 11:19:28


VIEW MORE
story-3
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine

Slideshow: Before curves took over, Mercedes mastered the art of the straight line, and some of those shapes still look right today.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-25 12:05:49


VIEW MORE
story-4
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction

Slideshow: The 190E Evolution II shows how a homologation necessity became a six-figure collector icon.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-22 17:53:47


VIEW MORE
story-5
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know

Slideshow: Mercedes is turning one of its core nameplates electric, and the details show just how serious this shift is.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-21 13:58:06


VIEW MORE
story-6
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know

Slideshow: Faster charging, longer range, and a controversial steer-by-wire system define the latest evolution of Mercedes-Benz EQS.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-15 10:35:34


VIEW MORE
story-7
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve

Slideshow: These overlooked Mercedes-Benz models never got the spotlight, but they quietly delivered more than most remember.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-13 19:35:45


VIEW MORE
story-8
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping

Slideshow: A well-used 1991 Mercedes-Benz 300D with more than one million miles is now looking for a new owner, and it still appears ready for more.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-10 10:05:15


VIEW MORE
story-9
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used

Slideshow: From bulletproof sedans to surprisingly tough SUVs, these Mercedes models proved that the three-pointed star can go the distance.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-08 09:55:49


VIEW MORE